Laura mines more gold from the TMST community this week with a MUCH requested topic: Imposter Syndrome. Hands up - who doesn’t face some version of this, and would we want to hang with someone who doesn’t??? In this episode, Laura leaves us with three key ideas to help us deal with Imposter Syndrome and we close the show with a note for people who are looking for more recovery support. Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/
AMA with Laura on Impostor Syndrome + Bonus on Writing and Publishing a Book (final)
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. Welcome to another episode. So this week I'm doing another AMA. Ask me anything for those of you who don't know where I answer your questions. In our first few AMS, we released the same content for the public as we did for Matt. But with this episode, we're starting something new. There will be additional bonus questions available only to members, because what's the point of being a member.
[00:00:38] If you're not getting anything special, for those of you who may be new, or you don't know that we have membership, you do. And what you get is an edited. Uh, full length versions of every conversation we have in addition to getting access to our community, which is an [00:01:00] off Facebook community, where we post extras and have conversations about the episodes.
[00:01:07] So this week I'm answering one big question for everybody about imposter syndrome. It's something I get asked to talk about a lot. So, and I think about it a lot and I feel it a lot. So I was grateful to receive a question about it and get to lay out my thoughts. I really don't know anyone who hasn't experienced imposter syndrome.
[00:01:31] I probably wouldn't want to know a person who hasn't experienced it. Right. Okay. So then for members, I answer three questions. About writing a book, publishing the creative process for writing my first book, self publishing versus writing and how to approach a memoir. So if you're someone who has any interest in book writing, I know there's a lot of people who [00:02:00] listen, who are either authors or want to be.
[00:02:05] Or you're just a creative person who is interested in the creative process and curious about how that works. I answer some big juicy questions about that. I love talking about the book writing process and publishing. So it was so much fun to answer these, uh, it's something for me that was so elusive and confusing and overwhelming before I got into it.
[00:02:29] And it is to most people, it's a very. Behind the curtain industry. And so I'm always happy to do what I can to pull back the curtain. So if you want to hear me talk about those things, you can become a member by going to T M S T pod.com and clicking on membership. All right. I am excited to do this episode [00:03:00] because I'm talking about imposter syndrome.
[00:03:03] It is a perfect thing for me to have to think about and talk about having just turned in my manuscript for my second book two weeks ago, because I spent oh, a good year battling it.
[00:03:21] All right. Here's the question for this week? This is submitted. By anonymous. Hey Laura, I am a writer for a living, meaning I write professionally for work, mostly business and trade writing, but I've had a lifelong dream of publishing a novel. And when it comes to this type of writing, I can barely even call myself a writer, let alone believe I am qualified to be a published author.
[00:03:48] I know it doesn't make sense. I literally make a living writing and have all my life, but I struggle with feeling like a fraud. This has been a theme in other areas of my life. [00:04:00] Like other people are quote unquote real runners, for example, but I just run some times, even though I've run consistently for almost 10 years.
[00:04:11] I guess this is imposter syndrome. Can you talk about it and whether or not you've experienced it? I know it's holding me back, but I don't know how to work through it. Oh, okay. Uh, raise your hand if you feel this one. I definitely do. And yeah. The more I go along in life, the more I feel like everybody is walking around with some version of imposter syndrome, whether it's about being a parent, being whatever they do in their job, whatever their hobbies.
[00:04:51] I mean, so let's just level set right now. The first point I want to make about [00:05:00] this is what I'm going to call you are the adult. In the room and this, when I first heard the question, I immediately thought of my career in marketing and advertising. And when I was promoted to the title of vice president of marketing at the end of my career in marketing.
[00:05:33] Okay. So. Tobacco a little. I worked in that field for 15 years. I started right out of college and at the very bottom, of course, I worked for a startup in 99 in the.com boom. And you want to remember that? And it was, yeah, it did everything. I was the catch all person for the, the group, for the [00:06:00] team, the marketing team.
[00:06:01] And. I was the total beginner. And then, uh, I progressed through different roles. I worked at advertising agencies, mostly, uh, and eventually in my last role at an agency, uh, at a couple years sober, maybe a year sober, actually I was promoted to vice-president marketing. So I was an executive of the company.
[00:06:32] There w there were many other levels to get to, right? Like I could have been a senior vice president of which there was literally just a handful. There were probably a dozen vice presidents. And then you started topped out there unless I wanted to own my own agency. So I was pretty high up and for my whole career, I even up to the point where.
[00:06:53] Promoted to that. I had this idea that the leadership team, the executive [00:07:00] leadership team knew exactly what they were doing. That there was this like secret society or room where they had conversations and they made completely. Educated and informed decisions that there were protocols that I had no idea about that they totally understood, and that there was some adult or like professional code book that they were reading from and leading from.
[00:07:33] And when I would eventually get there, then it would, I would be welcomed into the secret society and I would magically have all this wisdom and knowledge. Inexperience. And I remember getting promoted and sitting around at my first like senior leadership meeting. It was a, it was a big deal, [00:08:00] right? Like when you become an, uh, an executive of a company, you actually have all kinds of responsibilities, like duties to the company rather.
[00:08:10] And. I had sort of imagined being in this room. And then I was in this room and I realized that there was nothing special. There was this, there wasn't some secret code. Yes. We were talking about things that were different than maybe the conversations I was having at different levels, but I wasn't in this magically elevated state, all of a sudden people.
[00:08:41] We were, I remember talking about some client issue and, you know, we had the president of the agency in there. We had the CFO, we had, there was no more levels to go up there. All the senior leadership was in there and they were still completely just figuring things out and [00:09:00] sometimes totally making them up.
[00:09:03] They were, people were confused. They had questions that. Bad ideas. They had good ideas. There was insecurity. And some of these people had been in the industry for 40 years, right. Longer than I had. And I'm not saying like that was my cat sneezing. She has a kitty cold. I'm not saying experience doesn't matter.
[00:09:32] It of course does. It means something, but what I'm saying. There's this idea that there are like the adults and we're not the adults in the room until we are. And then when we are the quote unquote adults, we will just be all knowing and all confident and all comfortable. And I remember the [00:10:00] distinct feeling of going, oh my God.
[00:10:05] These are the adults in the room. I am the adults in the room.
[00:10:12] It was, it was such an epiphany. It was like becoming a parent where you realize, oh, no one knows what the fuck they're doing. No one knows how to do this. You don't get a manual. You just do the best you can. And you face each moment with what you have. And the thing about parenting though, is at least for me, you don't like expect to know what to do.
[00:10:45] Really. Everyone has kind of the same hilarious realization when they bring a kid home from the hospital or they adopt a kid.
[00:10:57] They're completely unequipped and [00:11:00] unprepared to do what they're doing. And yet they do it. We do it right. But with work and with other areas of our lives, like I love the running example. Cause I was the same about being a runner. I ran marathons that I was still like, eh, I'm not really a real runner. So.
[00:11:20] We, we have these idea, this idea that there are adults and, or not the adults. And then oftentimes you get into a situation like I did. And, and you realize, oh, I am the adult in the room. We are the adults. It's not going to get, I'm not going to be any more sure than I am right now. I'm not going to feel any more prepared.
[00:11:41] I'm not going to be any more qualified than I am at this moment. And that has to be. Okay. So write that on a piece of paper, like right. I am the adults in the room and put it next to your computer in your bathroom, wherever, [00:12:00] because you are
[00:12:06] Okay. The next thing, oh, I want to make one more point about that because the real sign of actual maturity and. Wisdom, I would say whether it's professional or personal con con uh, professional or personal, uh, setting, is that the real sign of maturity is knowing what you don't know and stopping, pretending like you do like the best leaders I actually know are the ones who.
[00:12:42] What they aren't good at and they know it and they don't pretend they don't play make-believe. That's what kids do by the way. Right. They play make-believe adults. Adults actually tried to do that. It doesn't look so good though. It's not so hard to [00:13:00] notice when someone is pretending like they know what's up.
[00:13:07] So the, the coolest thing you can do for yourself and the biggest gift you can give yourself and what actually requires a ton of humility is admitting you don't know, and being willing to ask, ask a lot of questions. I remember hearing this story. Rob bell told about, he went on tour with Oprah sometime, maybe it was like 2014 or 15.
[00:13:37] And I remember him doing a podcast about it and talking about how he, that was like a peak moment for him in his career. Right. He was on tour with Liz Gilbert and Rob bell. Like Oprah got together the expert. Uh, in certain fields and he was one of them and he went on tour around the United States as an expert.
[00:13:58] I'm assuming, and [00:14:00] spirituality, and here he says, he remembers like, thinking that if you achieve the status of Oprah, You don't run into the same problems that other people do. You don't have logistical problems. You're not like he said, she, they, at every event, he was just astonished at the level of sort of anxiety and panic and guessing and just, you know, figuring things out on the fly that even Oprah did.
[00:14:32] And I'll never forget that. Cause it was like, And he, that was a super helpful epiphany for him too. Of course. Okay. So in one sense, it's totally disturbing when we, if you have arrived at this realization, it's kind of disturbing because you expected to like reach this elevated state and oh, it's not there.
[00:14:59] And [00:15:00] you expect that you will feel more efficient. Like I have arrived and you realize, oh, it's it's, this is a mindset thing. Like I just have to, I have to decide that this is as qualified as I'm ever going to feel. This is as legit as I'm ever going to feel. All right. So there are a couple of other areas where I felt like this, and I want to talk about those sobriety sobriety.
[00:15:31] Totally felt like this. And it still sometimes feels this way, although much, much less than it did in the first couple of years. Like I felt like I wasn't quite doing it. Right. Uh, if I still felt wobbly, which I did all the time, if I felt shitty emotionally, like I did all the time. If I was engaging in other very unsafe behaviors, like my dysfunction with men or.[00:16:00]
[00:16:01] The insane amount of sugar I was eating or, I mean, you name it, all the other things I was doing besides drinking, which is completely normal, by the way I fell. Like it wasn't really sober. My milestones always felt wonky and like, I was somehow disconnected from them. Like it wasn't totally real for her.
[00:16:27] It was a real for other people, but it wasn't totally real for me. And I hear this from people all the time, whether they're early in sobriety or even years in, we'll be in a meeting or we'll be in a class like an actual class that they've signed up for that they're completing homework for that they are showing up to week after week engaging in.
[00:16:50] And they'll say something like. Yeah, I really need to learn how to do that or heal that or address that [00:17:00] or improve that. And it's like, uh, no, you're doing it right now. This is what it is to do it. It's not out there somewhere. This is it. You are doing it. You are doing sobriety, you are doing healing. This is what it feels like to do it.
[00:17:24] And that plays into the next thing. The next area, I talked about writing a tiny bit earlier, but I'm going to go deeper. The fact that you feel like an imposter about writing, there's feeling like an imposter and allowing that to stop you from doing it, which is something different. And I'll talk about that in my next point.
[00:17:53] And then there's feeling like an imposter, feeling like a fraud while you're doing it while you're writing your novel [00:18:00] while you're getting an agent while you're trying to sell the book. Well, your book is out there in the world. What I've realized in my short time of being a published writer. Author is that, that just counts you in it, like you are doing it.
[00:18:20] And it's actually part of the process to go through this for every writer that I know. I know a good number of them at this point. I've never heard one single writer say that they feel like they they've arrived. They're just confident. Then they know what they're doing. They never have doubt. They know that their material materials.
[00:18:44] All that it doesn't exist. This thinking actually helped me in all throughout my first book. I felt like this is ridiculous. I'm just making this up. How is this legit [00:19:00] as if other writers had a more legitimate and formal process for their writing as if they felt. Embodied as a writer, as an author, as if their process was cleaner.
[00:19:17] All of those things, I felt like a fraud while I was doing it because I felt messy and completely mired in doubt. And like, I was just making it up. And if it w if some days were easy, like the, the, the pen moved easily. So to speak, I felt like, oh, well you're obviously faking it. This is supposed to be insanely hard all the time where if it was hard, which it was most of the time, I thought this should be easier.
[00:19:48] Like how many ways can we annihilate ourselves? How many ways can we just, you know, make it so that we can never feel [00:20:00] like we're actually legitimately doing what we're doing? I mean, even as I turned in a 65,000 word manuscript, I thought it should feel different. This isn't real. So just know that this idea that you feel.
[00:20:24] Fraud like that you feel like you're not a real writer. And I don't know if you've written any of your novel or not. If you, if this has kept you from writing your novel and then I want it, I want you to really listen to the next point. But chances are, if, once you start writing it, you're still going to feel this way.
[00:20:43] It's not going to go away. At least not in my experience. So knowing that this is a thing that nearly everyone feels and accepting that. Actually part of what means means that you're doing it. Like I said, with sobriety, no, this [00:21:00] is it. It's not out there somewhere. You are the adults in the room, you are you're here.
[00:21:07] It's not going to feel any different than it is. Kind of takes the sting out of it. It takes the pressure off of it and you can laugh at it a little bit and go, yeah, we're all pretty neurotic and weird. I remember going to a retreat with Danny Shapiro years ago. Talk about imposter syndrome, by the way, I remember showing up at this retreat and feeling like I had not, I had not published my book, not even close.
[00:21:35] And I had to write my first solid 10 pages to be, uh, submitted to this group and to be workshopped, it's part of what we did in this retreat and feeling like. This is a total joke. I'm sitting in this room with a few different published authors. Not everyone was, but several people were, [00:22:00] and I've just submitted pages.
[00:22:02] And who am I like? I, I was still working in my job in marketing. It was a big imposter syndrome moment, but I also just wanted this so bad that I thought I'm just going to put myself in the room and see what it's like to have these conversations. I'm going to just allow myself to ask all the stupid questions and you know, what happened.
[00:22:27] Everyone had the same questions. Most people had the same thoughts, insecurities, weirdness. Oops. I'm getting very animated as I talk about this. So I handed the microphone. What you guys can't see when I'm recording. This is that my hands fly everywhere. Uh, you can't take the Italian out of the girl. So Danny Shapiro told this story about one of her friends who is a Pulitzer prize, winning author.
[00:22:56] She won the Pulitzer prize, you know, [00:23:00] in arguably one of the most. Prestigious awards in literary world. And she still felt like a fraud. So what gives, you know, if, if the person, the woman in this case who won the Pulitzer prize still wakes up and feels terror about going to write and like, she is a fraud, like any day, someone's going to find her out.
[00:23:26] Then, then what gives. What's the point, where are you going to feel like you've arrived? Uh, maybe there is no point. Maybe you just go along and know that this is part of what counts you in. You are the adults in the room. Good news, bad news. I think this all points to something really interesting that I thought about when I read this question and it's something that.
[00:23:54] Uh, I've been talking about in my class, the big res, uh, because in the first week of this class, [00:24:00] we talk about, um, the different mindsets that we have. We explore this idea of, um, the world of measurement versus possibility, the world of scarcity versus abundance and the world of earning versus belonging.
[00:24:14] I'm not going to go into all of that, but one of the things I talk about. Is that you've all Harari who wrote sapiens, which is an amazing book. He has an awesome Ted talk, by the way, uh, that you could watch about this particular thing. If you want to search it up, he talks about this world that we live in is made up of rules and constructs and titles and measurements that we've invented.
[00:24:42] Like it's all invented by humans, just like us. These aren't real things like set on high from God or the gods or some expert. Like I imagine the executives in the room to have this [00:25:00] manual, this, this stuff is made up by humans. So just think about that for a minute. All these constructs are made up by humans.
[00:25:10] And so you can kind of extricate yourself from this idea that there are. Experts quote, unquote experts who know all, and even the ones who have achieved the most high honors, they're still working towards something that was invented and everything we invent is not perfect. It's not the capital T truth.
[00:25:40] I mean, if there's anything, I hope that you get from this show, it's set these constructs and these ideas that we hold ourselves up to this sort of status quo of how we're supposed to live is largely disappointing. It's a made up game. [00:26:00] And what you realize, whether it's writing a book, running a marathon, Winning the Pulitzer prize, whatever the process is, the real gift it has to be.
[00:26:16] Okay. So it's all invented. Just consider that this is all invented. What does it mean to be a professional author? I mean, yes, you generally don't want to call yourself an author unless you've published a book, but there are also many ways to publish. You can self publish. You can traditionally publish.
[00:26:36] It's all invented. I think the most important thing is what's in you. What's the essence of you. I am a writer. That's in me. It has been in me. If I, if now I can see it's been in me really my whole life. I'm a lover of words. That's how I make sense of the world. So that's [00:27:00] what makes me right. The fact that I write anything, not because I've achieved this or that.
[00:27:09] All right,
[00:27:15] I'll leave you with this on this point, whenever I get caught in this type of thing, which is usually when I start comparing myself to other writers or CEO's or mothers. Which is this endless brutal game. When I go on Instagram or social media and I start going, oh my God, I'm not this or not. That the antidote to those feelings of being an imposter of being a fraud is always, always, always for me to get back to work.
[00:27:47] Drop into the present and get back to work, to focus on what's right in front of me and literally right in front of me, whether it's doing the next thing for my daughter, as in, you know, filling up her water bottle before she goes to [00:28:00] school or. Outlining that next chapter, writing that next sentence. It's always to go into my work into my world, into the thing that I can control in the next moment.
[00:28:13] And it's amazing how quickly it takes the sting away. All right. So that's the first point long point, but you are the adults in the room. You are the adults in the. And this is all invented by other quote unquote adults. It's kind of funny when you think about it. So maybe relax about that. Let yourself laugh at yourself and maybe even put a post-it note on your desk that says I am the adults in the room.
[00:28:47] Okay. The second point, I wondered if. When we do this type of thing, we are really just trying to count ourselves out of the arena. [00:29:00] And what I mean by the arena is a quote from theater Roosevelt. You may know it because Bernay brown, uh, quotes at a lot, and this is how it goes. It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
[00:29:24] The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming, but who does actually. But who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions who spends himself in a worthy cause who at the best knows in the end, the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, [00:30:00] if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls.
[00:30:10] Who neither know victory nor defeat. I love this. I love it. I love it. I remember someone sent it to me before I ran the second marathon that I ran and it was so cool because I, like I said, I had not really felt like a real runner ever. And. Reading that I was like, yeah. Okay. I'm in the arena. It doesn't get any more real, like I'm putting myself in the arena today.
[00:30:41] I'm going to run this marathon and 90 degree heat in Boston, in April, and I'm going to run it in like five hours. And that's a really long time for me and I'm in the arena. So what I'm wondering is when you. [00:31:00] Have come up against this idea, this idea that you're not a real writer that you feel like you have no business being a published author, maybe it's.
[00:31:12] So you don't have to let yourself be in the arena. Maybe. This is some subconscious way to avoid the failure, the criticism, the rejection, that absolutely comes by putting yourself in the arena. If you don't have to call yourself an author, then you don't have to face the risks of being an author. You can just hide in your little small who me place and you can stay safe.
[00:31:45] You won't have to risk people saying things like, who does she think she is? Oh God, her writing isn't that good. Or any of the things that people are by the way, absolutely bound to say.[00:32:00]
[00:32:01] So imposter syndrome in this way, so closely tied to perfectionism. And what I've learned about perfectionism is that it's not about excellence. It's not about being perfect. We say that it is. But it's really about not being vulnerable about not feeling the private shame that we feel or the public humiliation or blame or judgment that will no doubt come our way.
[00:32:27] It's shutting down that possibility Bernay brown Brown's work has been super helpful for this. Uh, her Ted talk on vulnerability is awesome. And so is her book, the gifts of imperfection. So. Think about that, is this a way to keep yourself out of the arena?
[00:32:49] It could be, you might feel safe, but what I know is that it's not ultimately safe. Uh, our unused potential is [00:33:00] definitely not benign to when we don't use it. It turns into something very dark destructive. We become resentful. We come be, become bitter. We become depressed. It's this like spirit level death that we experienced and you might feel some of that.
[00:33:19] So there's no way to avoid what comes from being in the arena. There's no way to avoid it.
[00:33:29] So perhaps there's something in there for you and you wouldn't be the first person to do this. It's it takes a hell of a lot of guts to actually say, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to try it. Let me look. This is what most people never do. They want to have the fantasy of doing the thing more than they actually want to do the thing, because doing the thing comes with all kinds of stuff.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] It comes with the rejection. There's, there's no way to avoid that. I've had to learn that the hard way. People will say, I'm, I'm not going to be for a lot of people. People will say, there's no way I can actually write something without people having an infinite number of reactions. And that's just part of the deal.
[00:34:25] So ask yourself, maybe write about it. Maybe meditate on it. Maybe just talk to people about it. Are you trying to keep yourself out of the arena? Is this one of those subconscious. Ways of trying to protect yourself from what would come if you wrote that novel.
[00:34:47] All right. So that is the extent of what I want to talk about with imposter syndrome. I so hope that's helpful. There's so much more, I, I think I want to say about this. Uh, there's so much more there, but those are the, I feel like [00:35:00] the most important things like. What is most relevant to me right now and what I can, what I can talk about most, I still, you know, I just turned in the second manuscript for my book and I felt like I was faking it in like a fraud pretty much the whole time.
[00:35:19] And I had to constantly talk about that with my coach, with other writers, with my friends, with my boyfriend. And in talking about it, it takes a lot of the power away and it also reminds me a lot. It gives me the opportunity to be reminded of what's actually true. Okay. So to recap, you are the adults in the room question, whether you're trying to keep yourself out of the arena.
[00:35:51] And the answer is always, always getting back to work. Focusing on what's right in front of.[00:36:00]
[00:36:04] I want to just tell you about something. I've never been talked about it before in the show, but I founded a sobriety support community in 2020 in the height of the pandemic and mark. I'm 2020 called the luckiest club. I created it when everything shut down and I realized people could not get to sobriety meetings.
[00:36:26] As you probably know, if you're listening to this sobriety is a big part of my story. I will be eight years sober this year, miraculously and going to meetings was a huge, and is a huge part of my recovery. Helps me get sober and stay sober and stay sane and all of that. So when the world shut down, I thought, oh shit.
[00:36:54] And what happened? From that oh, shit thought was the luckiest club. [00:37:00] So almost two years later, we are now running almost 40 sobriety support meetings a week. I have an incredible team. Uh, we have multiple meetings each day. They're all online. So it's super accessible and convenient. You don't have to check a schedule and drive to a location.
[00:37:20] Face the humiliation or the fear or the anxiety or whatever of walking into a room, all that stuff is eliminated. You can just listen from your car or at home or with your headphones on, at work. And if you're questioning the role, alcohol is in your life has in your life. Maybe you're sober, curious, maybe you're sober serious.
[00:37:46] Like guy was like, you have to get your shit together. Or maybe you're sober, but you just feel really alone and you need connection because we all do, you are welcome to check out TLC. [00:38:00] They aren't AA meetings. We have our own format, our own culture. And our motto is we don't do dogma. We lead with compassion and we welcome you as you will.
[00:38:13] So we've got meetings, all kinds of meetings. Who've got meetings for newcomers. Those who are beyond one year queer focused meetings, BiPAP meetings, and men and women's meetings. We also have a private off Facebook forum. Where you can connect with other members. And that includes over 50 subgroups based on geography or interests.
[00:38:36] We have a monthly book club, which is super fun, and we're about to start a runner's group and so many other amazing, amazing things. So. Check us out. If that is of interest to you, or maybe, you know, someone who needs it. I lead the 8:00 AM Eastern time meeting every Tuesday morning. It's one of my most favorite [00:39:00] times of the week.
[00:39:01] You can show up and leave your camera off and just tune in until you're ready or you can jump right in and open your mouth. Um, TLC has been one of the most rewarding things. Ever been part of, and I want to make you aware of it. So check us out@theluckiestclub.com or you can follow us on Instagram at the luckiest club.
[00:39:27] All right. That was really fun. If you want to submit a question, please do. You can go to T M S T pod.com and click on submit a question. We are doing these once every, I'd say four to six weeks now. I love doing them. I love answering your questions. I love thinking about them. Enjoyed it. If you want to get in on the questions about writing and publishing, become a member, otherwise I'll see you next week.[00:40:00]