When Ana Marie Cox said, “I can’t wring self-worth out of the universe,” we felt that hit like a mountain. Ana spent the better part of two decades as a political columnist and culture critic. She started the political blog Wonkette in 2004, and worked at outlets like The New York Times, Time magazine, GQ, Air America, and The Guardian. After living behind a professional persona for a long time, Ana started to talk about more personal parts of her life publicly, like being bi-polar and struggling with alcohol addiction. She moved away from politics and we talk about why, as well as what getting sober was like for her, but not just from alcohol. We talk about breaking the addiction to productivity, busy-ness, approval, and co-dependency. Ana has some VERY poignant things to share about mother / daughter relationships, forgiveness, and real recovery. As you’ll hear, Ana is willing to get very real and we get an inside view into her Sober Questioning column in The Cut, where she answers readers’ questions about drinking — and not drinking — every other week. Sober Questioning: https://www.thecut.com/tags/sober-questioning/ Ana’s site: https://www.anamariecox.com/ Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/46-ana-marie-cox-trusting-the-process Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6XvGaYQMoLmVZLmsUGOhh2 Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/
TMST Ana Marie Cox on Trusting The Process (even when she doesn’t want to)
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. Welcome to another episode another week. I hope you enjoy last week's episode with Jason Isabelle, Jan Raider and west hurt from south by Southwest. It's the addiction panel that I moderated. If you haven't checked it out yet. Definitely do. Yeah. Fun and funny and helpful and warm. That's at least the feedback that we have got from it.
[00:00:33] You can also watch it can watch the whole thing on our YouTube channel. Yes, we have a YouTube channel. All our episodes are there as audio, but this happens to be there as a video of the session. So go check it out. It also happens to be a perfect companion lead-in to today's conversation with Ana Marie Cox.
[00:00:56] So on a, spent the better part of two [00:01:00] decades as a political columnist and culture critic, she started the political blog on Wonkette in 2004 and worked at outlets like the New York times time magazine, GQ air America, and the. So after living a professional persona for a long time and living kind of behind that on a, started to talk about more personal parts of her life publicly.
[00:01:30] Being bipolar and then struggling with alcohol addiction. She moved away from politics. And we talk about why as well as what getting sober was like for her, but not just from alcohol. We talk about breaking the addiction to productivity busy-ness approval and codependency. Ana has some really poignant things to share about mother-daughter [00:02:00] relationships and forgiveness and just real recovery talk.
[00:02:04] She was amazing to talk to as a woman in long-term recovery. And it was very real and warm and funny. And so. One of her recent projects is a column that's great called sober questioning. It's on the cut and she answers reader's questions every other week about drinking and not drinking. Check that out.
[00:02:32] So we talked for almost a half. An hour and a half 90 minutes. And there's so much to this episode, you can hear the complete unedited version if you want to become a paid subscriber. And I'll tell you more about that at the end of the show. Also a reminder that every episode we create has a companion Spotify playlist with music inspired by the guests and the topic.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Mikel. And I trade off creating those each week, depending on who's feeling it. And so now we have almost 50 playlists out there and they are searchable on Spotify. So if you search there, you will obviously find the show, but you'll also find our playlists. So check those out. There are a lot of fun. We love making.
[00:03:22] Alright, here's Ana Marie Cox.
[00:03:36] I'm very happy to have you here. You've been in the public eye for a long time. You've been sober for 10, 11 years.
[00:03:45] Ana Marie Cox: I had 11 years on March 20.
[00:03:47] Laura McKowen: Ah, congratulations. Okay. So, and you've been in the public eye for a lot longer than that. We all have to grow up and get sober in public, even if we're not public figures, because we are [00:04:00] surrounded by people who are invested in a certain image of who we are.
[00:04:05] And even if it's not a public figure, like you, we have to grow and evolve. And, uh, so I want to talk about that. Can you talk about what it was like. Getting into recovery and recovering both personally and professionally kind of in public.
[00:04:27] Ana Marie Cox: Sure. I have like two different ways to go with this. One of them is that my perception of being a public figure.
[00:04:33] I think this is true for everyone, unless you're like a genuine, a one celebrity is that I'm a lot more public than I really am. Right. I mean, this is a lesson that you learned in recovery is that you're not nearly as important as you think you are. And not nearly as many people notice. Um, every you, everything you're doing, I mean, that said, um, you know, I disappeared, uh, kind of quickly when I bought him out.
[00:04:59] [00:05:00] Um, because my, my bottom was. Pretty enthusiastic suicide attempt. Um, that w put me in an emergency room and ICU in a psych ward. And then I didn't really have much time between that and going to treatment. And I was in treatment for four months. Got it. So where they took away the phone, obviously. Right.
[00:05:25] So like, I went from like, Tweeting constantly and being all over social media to suddenly like disappearing and some people ask questions, right? Not nearly as many people, of course, as I maybe want it to
[00:05:40] Laura McKowen: be very honest.
[00:05:42] Mikel Ellcessor: Um, but also
[00:05:47] Ana Marie Cox: discovering this is taking your question in a different direction, I guess, but discovering I was more anonymous than I thought I was, was actually great.
[00:05:57] Yeah. Especially since it [00:06:00] turns out, you know, my particular form of internet famous is pretty specific to people that follow politics. Right. So, and you know what, most people don't,
[00:06:14] it's not funny. The
[00:06:15] Laura McKowen: world you think is the world.
[00:06:17] Ana Marie Cox: Right? So, you know, I went to treatment and. I was just, uh, just another person there. And it was actually a real relief. It was a weird destabilizing thing too, because, uh, in the, um, lounge of the treatment center that I was in, there was, uh, a stack of magazines.
[00:06:41] And I was in a couple of them.
[00:06:46] I remember like as an author. Right. And I remember going into everyone's front, like looking at them, being like, that's me, that's my old life. Um, but I. Kind of loved it [00:07:00] because, you know, I think like any of us that, that are insecure, which is almost everyone in recovery, I spent my life thinking that I was only worth my achievements and.
[00:07:17] One of the frustrations I had and something that kept me, you know, drinking and using for a long time was my belief that I could apply my big brain and my talents to my addiction. And that if I could just find a way, if I could just like put my brain on it and just like, think of a solution and come up with a plan.
[00:07:39] That would be the way that I would solve my life. I don't even think. I mean, I didn't really think about it in terms of getting sober. I thought of it in terms of fixing my life. That's right. Me too. Yeah. Um, when drinking was a part of what I wanted to fix, but I didn't occur to me that that was the first thing that I should fix.
[00:07:59] Yeah. [00:08:00] So, you know, I spent this all my life, all of my kind of conscious life pursuing outside. Validation and that outside validation came and it made me think that I, if I just tried hard enough, I could fix things if I just tried hard enough. And of course, like alcoholism doesn't work that way. And so kind of being stripped of all of my outside validation or all the outside validation I was used to, which was.
[00:08:31] Married to another successful journalist, um, lived in a nice house. I had the two cars and my byline and like all of that, I lost all of that and I was only worth, well, I was worth what everyone else was worth. Right. Which is depends on how you look at it, but it can be some days that feels like a lot.
[00:08:56] Sometimes it feels like a little, but it's the same. Yeah. [00:09:00] And what people, what people saw in me was what I did that day. Right. Who I was that day. And you're
[00:09:11] Laura McKowen: talking about in treatment,
[00:09:12] Ana Marie Cox: in treatment. And also I did sober living. So I had a real humbling year. Yeah. Um, and I remember, I actually, I thought it was kind of an interesting life hack at the time.
[00:09:23] Like I always it's, we had chores and treatment and in the sober house, but I always signed up for the gross chores, like taking out the garbage and cleaning up after lunch and stuff. First of all, it was, it was usually those things actually didn't take that long. Like it was just, uh, it was just gross, so people didn't want to do it, but it actually didn't take that long.
[00:09:43] And the other thing is that there's this weird kind of respect you got, right? Like if you're always doing the shit work. Yup. Um, but it was earned respect, right. It was like something that I did, it wasn't valid and it wasn't like outside validation. It was like, I knew that I did [00:10:00] a thing that needed to be, do done.
[00:10:02] Yep for other people to make our little household work. Um, and that's my. Right. Like in addition to just being a human that has value, I guess that's actually not about value. That's about self-respect that's like selfish from the inside classic dignity. Yeah. It's just dignity. And, um, you know, I didn't want to go to sober living, but I knew I would die if I didn't.
[00:10:27] That was a lot of my decision-making in early sobriety was like, I don't want to do this, but I also feel like it's not time for me to die. So. I'll do it. I tell this to a lot of newcomers, which is that the willingness doesn't have to be happy. Like you don't have to be like jazzed to do the stuff you're supposed to do.
[00:10:46] Like I stomped my feet and I pouted like all the way into that sober house. Um, and kept stomping my feet and pouting, but just did what I was supposed to do. Right. Like I hated that I had a curfew and remember the house house [00:11:00] manager being like, well, where are you going to.
[00:11:04] Mikel Ellcessor: And I'm
[00:11:04] Ana Marie Cox: like I'm 34 years old. It's just the principle. Right? So the principle of the thing, like I'm, you know, I'm 38 years on 38 years old. And I also had a roommate roommate, you know, cause it's a sober house who doubled up in beds and I'm like, I'm 38 years old. And I have like a person sleeping five feet away from me after living in like a nice house and like fancy, fancy.
[00:11:28] It was great though. Um, what was work? Remote work worker friend among friends. Like I was just another person in that sober house. And what people thought about me was how I showed up every day. And that's the key to building self respect and self-respect is kind of, you know, it grows in tandem with a sense of worth.
[00:11:52] I think it's probably a little different, but I remember the sponsor. I had attitude. I had it, you know, whatever I was [00:12:00] struggling, the mental health stuff was much harder to get my head around then the addiction for me. Yup. Um, and it was really struggling and it was kind of depressed. And she asked me if I'd done my chore that day.
[00:12:12] And I was like, Yeah, I think so. And she said, and how did you do it? What did you do? And I think it was taking the garbage out and I was like, yeah, I took the garbage out and she's like, and did you make sure that it didn't drip along the way? Did you put in a new liner after you got it? Did you wipe out the bottom?
[00:12:28] If there's like gross juice stuff in there, like risks, garbage shoes. And I'm kinda like, I don't, why is that important? And she said, it's important for you. Like, you're not doing that for the other people in the house. Like you're doing it to know that you did something to the best of your ability. And that's how brick by brick action by action.
[00:12:48] We build up who we are. We build up who we are from the inside. Um, and I hope this is making sense in terms of like, it's not outside validation. It's like knowing I did the work.
[00:12:59] Laura McKowen: [00:13:00] Absolutely. No, it totally makes sense. And I love what you said about willing. Doesn't mean being happy about it. What exactly. I
[00:13:10] Ana Marie Cox: don't have to be jazz.
[00:13:11] You don't have to be like, I'm going to be sober. I'm going to do, I'm going to do my fourth step. Like, you know, I'm going to take this recommendation, you just have to do it. And then what I discovered is that it takes a lot more energy to be sulky about something than it does to just do it. So.
[00:13:32] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:34] I always thought of that. The line repetition is a way of teaching the unwilling, the unwanted I've thought about that a lot in early recovery, because I hated going to meetings. I hated almost everything about it. I didn't want to be sober. I wanted to do. I just didn't want to die. I didn't want my life to keep exploding, but I didn't want to be sober.
[00:13:54] And so I'm really glad you made that point
[00:13:57] Ana Marie Cox: and then I'm going to get to the public part, which is that. So I had, [00:14:00] I was very lucky to have like nine months or so eight yeah. A month or so of being outside of Washington, having ha had I thought I blew up my.
[00:14:15] Laura McKowen: Did you literally lose your job or did
[00:14:17] Ana Marie Cox: you yeah, cause I, I, I owed eight on an assignment.
[00:14:21] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:23] Mikel Ellcessor: That would do
[00:14:24] Ana Marie Cox: it. They were very nice about it, but yeah, we're going to tie me back. They like didn't make a bit, what they did is they do. It just say, this kept me on the masthead for a little while and then, you know, failing. Yeah. But I thought I had lost my career and I actually was not unhappy about that in a way, like I was ready to start over.
[00:14:52] So I thought I'd get a, got job in a coffee shop and write a novel or something. And then I actually got a couple of job offers, which [00:15:00] are a whole nother miracle of the PR program or. That's just like, I job out two job offers came to me and I went to my sponsor at the time. And I'm like, you want me to turn this down?
[00:15:13] Right. Cause I, well, that's bad for me. Like that was my using, you know, uh, context and that's a high pressure and that's a lot of ego and he shocked me by saying, who's paying like, she's like, who's paying your rent right now. And I was like, I'm getting some help from my dad. And she said, do you, does your dad?
[00:15:39] Is that something you can be in? It can be an ongoing thing. And I was like, well, probably not for that long. I mean, my dad's very generous and of course would do whatever I, you know, he's a dad. Yeah. And she said part of being sober is taking responsibility for yourself. And you have an opportunity to take [00:16:00] responsibility for yourself.
[00:16:01] And there's a way to stay sober doing this, and it's going to be a challenge, but I don't, and maybe this would be a different answer for different person. Right. But it's been eight months. And why don't you stand on your own two feet and take the challenge? And so I did, and I, there was no like grand entrance.
[00:16:25] Again, I'm not as important as. As I think I am. I'm not as important as I think I am. And the other thing is that some people didn't notice I was gone, I think, to get around to the, to the actual part of like what it, what it does, what it has meant is
[00:16:44] Mikel Ellcessor: that
[00:16:48] people
[00:16:51] Ana Marie Cox: are, I think pretty few more safe, judging someone. In the public eye. It's interesting
[00:16:58] Laura McKowen: way to put it feel more [00:17:00] safe. Yeah.
[00:17:02] Mikel Ellcessor: Yeah.
[00:17:04] Ana Marie Cox: In some ways they feel more safe. I think criticizing the way that I do my sobriety. So other sober people. Oh yeah. There's that whole, um, feel really comfortable telling me that I'm doing my sobriety wrong.
[00:17:17] Laura McKowen: When did you make a statement about what you, where you'd been and that you were in recovery? Or just that you were in recovery? Not where you've been.
[00:17:27] Ana Marie Cox: That's I don't know if there was like a moment. Yeah, I think I was actually pretty, like, I might've probably been like a year sober before I mentioned it in public.
[00:17:40] It wasn't that I kept it a secret, but I do take pretty seriously. Like obviously I think it's okay to talk about your recovery and. You know, I even identify specifically in 12 step recovery and I'm happy to talk about the steps and the rooms and all that. Um, but I do feel, you know, you [00:18:00] don't advertise your specific program and, um, or you try not to, and then also I'm wary of.
[00:18:10] The sober, Hey, everybody look when you're like in your first year.
[00:18:18] Mikel Ellcessor: Yeah,
[00:18:19] Ana Marie Cox: it is interesting. And I mean, I did that in my personal life to some degree, cause I was so happy to be sober, but I wanted not to do that and I didn't want to be a representative. And I also didn't want the entire world to know, like if I relapse, which is sometimes part of people's story, like I didn't want that to be.
[00:18:38] Like a thing that people could judge other people with.
[00:18:43] Laura McKowen: When did you start to sort of incorporate it into your work? Like when was, is the series the first sobriety focused work
[00:18:55] Ana Marie Cox: that took a lot longer. Yeah. Um,[00:19:00]
[00:19:02] yeah, that took a lot longer. Like I started talking about. More specifically before I started talking about my recovery, although they're pretty inseparable. Um,
[00:19:16] Mikel Ellcessor: I think
[00:19:17] Ana Marie Cox: I talked about my recovery in public for a long time before I wrote anything about.
[00:19:27] Mikel Ellcessor: I
[00:19:28] Ana Marie Cox: think the first thing that I wrote that really centered it, like I might've mentioned it before. Yeah. It's actually a review of hunter Biden's memoir that I wrote for the Atlantic or an essay. It wasn't really like a review. It was like kind of a response in which actually I talked about the, um, humility of being a known person.
[00:19:53] And a program that is based on anonymity and the relief that I [00:20:00] found in not being the person that everybody knew and in, you know, in reveling, in. In not having to live up to who that was and having people find value in me and what I did outside of what I could do for them in a professional capacity.
[00:20:27] So I don't talk very much about being a writer. I try to use the most general terms possible to describe what I'm doing. I don't have editors. I have bosses, right? I don't have assignments. I have contracts. Why do you do that? Because I don't want people to be distracted by stuff. That's a little bit out of the ordinary.
[00:20:51] Yeah. And I just want to be. I just want to be who I am, who I am. I just want to be another drunk because my problems are [00:21:00] everybody's problems. I don't have special problems just cause I'm a writer. Uh, and so early on in recovery, probably three, four years maybe. Um, I was at a meeting in St. Paul, really big meeting, a lot of sober houses send kids to, so there's tons of like 20 something do in that meeting.
[00:21:22] Yeah. And I, and it's a huge meeting. It's like a hundred and something people, but then we bring. And I was in a small group and I was having some kind of, I don't even remember what the issue was, but I was having like shit time at work. And I talked about it in terms of boss assignment. You know, or contract and, uh, you know, it's not important.
[00:21:46] Like what my, my editor and I were arguing about, right. What's important is that I was angry and resentful and I felt judged. And you know, those are pretty universal feelings [00:22:00] for someone who's an alcoholic. And I was really upset. Like I think I was at the end of my rope. I remember, I do remember it was actually before I parted ways with this particular organization.
[00:22:09] Cause I did feel like. I was at my wit's end and dealing with people there. And I think I said something about that at the meeting and how it was scary because I kind of felt like it would be better for me to move on, but I didn't know what I would do next and et cetera. And this kid came up to me after the meeting and said, you know, I just got hired at this pizza place and they're still hiring.
[00:22:36] If you want the info
[00:22:41] and I cry
[00:22:48] and then it was such a gift. Totally. You know, like I'm getting you thinking about it now. Um, and he probably didn't have like a month, you know, [00:23:00] Oh my God.
[00:23:04] Laura McKowen: What a, what a moment, man. I love that my heart
[00:23:10] Ana Marie Cox: and I never saw the kid again, who knows, like I said, it was a huge meeting. Um, I hope someday he hears me tell this story.
[00:23:16] That would be really beautiful for me. Like if you remember, like the girl who he offered a pizza
[00:23:25] Mikel Ellcessor: and you know what it felt good on a
[00:23:26] Ana Marie Cox: lot of levels, it felt good on the level of like, I'm not alone. Yep. Like the world is out there for me. Yeah. Um, and just to be heard, you know, that's what that person, that's what that felt like. Is it, they weren't distracted by anything except like the pain, the pain that I was in and that
[00:23:49] Laura McKowen: he frustration that I, he had something to offer, you know, like that probably meant a lot to him.
[00:23:54] I hope
[00:23:54] Ana Marie Cox: so.[00:24:00]
[00:24:07] Hi, I'm Michael I'm the executive producer of tell me something true. And co-created the show with Laura? You know, we have one goal here, put something into the world that helps all of us figure out how we can have a better week. We think the best way to do that is to keep the pod ad free. So all of the work goes toward making something that's useful for you instead of hustling to keep advertisers happy.
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[00:25:34] Mikel Ellcessor: a lot. Um,
[00:25:47] Laura McKowen: so it sounds like professionally you navigated based on your own tuition. There wasn't a lot of pushback in any at any one point. Um, is there ever [00:26:00] been a time where you've felt. Implicated or othered because of your recovery professionally.
[00:26:09] Ana Marie Cox: My challenge when it comes to my recovery in my career is to keep believing that my recovery comes first.
[00:26:16] And to believe that the universe has my back, as long as I stay sober. And actually, even if I didn't stay sober, the universe has my back. But, um, to not to find that middle ground where. Take pride in doing a good job, but not find my value there. Oh man,
[00:26:38] Laura McKowen: I hear that.
[00:26:40] Ana Marie Cox: And that's universal, right? Like that's not someone in the public eye are not in the public eye.
[00:26:43] That's a lot of people, it's a lot of people. And especially for those of us that grow up in a context where we feel empty on the inside and we do get. Affirmation and endorsement and goodies [00:27:00] from performing. Yep. And like, I was going to say like, so I'm between full-time gigs right now. And I think this is what my higher power wants for me.
[00:27:15] It's one of the most, I mean, I had a bad year in general, like, you know, I got divorced and I lost my full-time gig and I moved and. You know, money became an issue. Um, and
[00:27:33] having to trust that I can just do my best
[00:27:41] and I'll be okay. And maybe that, okay. Doesn't look exactly like what I think. Okay. Should look like maybe. Okay. This doesn't look like having another job. That's the exact same kind of job, you [00:28:00] know, and also, maybe being busy. Isn't the same as working. And isn't the same as doing your best because like, I just, I mean, I have stuff to be doing right now, but it's not as much as I used to have.
[00:28:18] And I have days where I've done. All I really need to do, and there's, I could do more, you know what I'm talking about? Like, you can always work on your bus, you can always work on your book, but like, do you really want to work on your, how loud, how much is it good to work on your book?
[00:28:37] Laura McKowen: This is th that's been for me a very, very big part of recovery.
[00:28:43] Ana Marie Cox: And so like, if I actually shared about this in a meeting today, which is the idea that. Sometimes the hardest and scariest for thing for me to do is, is nothing
[00:28:57] Mikel Ellcessor: amen.
[00:28:58] Ana Marie Cox: And I'm really like, [00:29:00] I'm gonna cry, like
[00:29:04] to like sit with being myself. And also just to know that I've done the best that I could with what I have right now.
[00:29:11] Laura McKowen: And to have that be
[00:29:12] Ana Marie Cox: enough and have not, there's not, I can't ring a job out of the universe, you know, like I can't. Rings self-worth out of the universe.
[00:29:25] Laura McKowen: Yeah. I, it, I just feel you,
[00:29:28] Ana Marie Cox: and also that there's, there is stuff out there also, like, I mean, also now could I discount everything that I'd have, right. Like it's not enough like that one freelance gig. Yeah, not enough. Does it really? So anyway,
[00:29:45] Laura McKowen: But it's, I, I just, I got, I feel you, every, all the things you're saying about I'm, you know, it's been a different, but similar path for me at various points in the busy-ness [00:30:00] just having finished a book.
[00:30:02] Like I said, I had this moment of. We took a minute to realize actually turned it in and like let the adrenaline slow down. And then to not immediately fill that vacuum up with everything else. It's so innate and to be on to myself. So like, yeah, you really
[00:30:25] Mikel Ellcessor: just,
[00:30:28] Laura McKowen: it's hard for you to sit. It's really hard for you to just
[00:30:31] Ana Marie Cox: be.
[00:30:33] And that that healing is part of what, all of what I need to be doing and that, and trusting, not just that the universe has my back, but then. I will know what to do when it comes time to do it. Yes. You will know the next right thing. I will know that x-ray thing. And that if I'm confused right now than the best, like one of the things I love about the program, by the way, one of [00:31:00] the best things is when in doubt do nothing.
[00:31:03] Um, And I'm in doubt all the time right now.
[00:31:09] Mikel Ellcessor: Like what if you're
[00:31:10] Laura McKowen: down all
[00:31:10] Ana Marie Cox: the time. And, but I think that is the right, the next right thing is cause because when you know the next right thing, you know, it, you're not. That's right. You're like, oh, this is what I need to be doing. Yeah. So if you're don't have that pull, if you cause right now, like the thing about being sober is that I have clarity.
[00:31:28] I have a spiritual life. I have a good, um, support network. I'm not making foolish decisions, right? Like I'm not when I'm left to my own devices and my good intuition, I do a pretty good job. And also to trust that like, You know, I just went through this really horrible year and I'm F I don't, you know, like I'm eating and drinking, not drinking, but like I'm meeting again.
[00:31:57] I'm sleeping again. You know, [00:32:00] I have good. I have lots of good days and I'm not crying all the time crying sometimes, but, um, and so I want it to be over now. I want the hard time to be over now. I'm ready.
[00:32:16] And I don't get to decide when that is. Yeah. And it was, you mean, it was like really like more than a year of really hard, hard.
[00:32:27] Laura McKowen: Sure. If you, if you get divorced, it's been hard for a lot longer than a year. Everybody who gets sober has to deal with the people around them either. Holding on to what happened, who they were.
[00:32:45] And surprisingly, a lot of people run into a lot of feelings of people not wanting them to actually change or being, being, um, confronted by their change, especially [00:33:00] partnerships. Um, but it can happen in familiar relationships and friends where you really. Want to move on. You really want to change, and that causes this and you do change.
[00:33:13] We just do. And that causes this ripple effect in our groups, our social groups in our, in our attachments. What was the process of recovery like with the people close to you without, you know, getting, getting into
[00:33:32] Ana Marie Cox: it as much as you feel comfortable, fortunate that my first marriage ended. As I was getting sober.
[00:33:37] I mean, I say that a little bit facetiously obviously, but it was probably, it was definitely for the best. Yeah. Um, and then I would say that one of the benefits of getting sober is finding out who my real friends were. And I was able to think about it that way, most of the time. And it had less to do with [00:34:00] like people like out and out objecting to the new way that I was and more to do with people that seem to value me in my new place.
[00:34:15] Um, my family was amazing. Um, my dad, especially, um, my mom's also, or was also an alcoholic who died when I was about a year sober. She never, never got sober. And actually, if there was one person that had trouble with me getting sober, it was my mom. Yeah. Um, we drank together a lot. It was when we got along the best.
[00:34:46] Yep. I know that I actually had this, oh God, this is super painful. When I needed to scrape up the money to stay in treatment for another [00:35:00] few months. And it didn't, there was a point where I didn't know how I was going to do that. Um, I asked her and her husband for money to stay in treatment. And she wrote me back that she said that she didn't think I needed it.
[00:35:17] Oh, that's,
[00:35:21] Laura McKowen: there's so much in there,
[00:35:25] Mikel Ellcessor: in there.
[00:35:28] Ana Marie Cox: And you know, I mean, that definitely is a relationship where we were, we only knew how to be sick together.
[00:35:36] Mikel Ellcessor: Yeah. Um,
[00:35:43] Ana Marie Cox: And that's a relationship. I still work on I'm. Sure. And again, I say this with some dark humor, but you know, we're both sober now.
[00:35:54] Mikel Ellcessor: Um,
[00:35:57] Ana Marie Cox: But for the most part, like my family has been [00:36:00] amazing. My dad, my aunts and uncles, um, I'm an only child, so I don't have any siblings, but, um, and then my good friends, like my best friend, I know had a lot of anger about the way that I was treating myself before it.
[00:36:17] Mikel Ellcessor: Hated
[00:36:18] Laura McKowen: seeing you hurt yourself.
[00:36:20] Ana Marie Cox: Yeah. Oh God. Like I was, you know, again, this sort of metaphor of like, how would you treat, what would you think of someone else treating them? Somebody like that. Yeah. And I was treating the person. She loved like shit. Um, and I think that, that took a little while. For me to accept that she was angry.
[00:36:40] Number one, I just sort of just wanted her to be happy then.
[00:36:44] Mikel Ellcessor: Yeah.
[00:36:45] Laura McKowen: Yeah. And well, yeah, we don't like any, we don't like anger being directed at us cause it's just swirls into shame. But, but you knew it was
[00:36:54] Ana Marie Cox: about yeah. That, and it wasn't, I don't, I've never actually made a [00:37:00] formal mentor about it. I've made sort of an informal, like, I'm sorry I put you through, um, And it went away.
[00:37:09] I mean, like it dissipated because I, I started taking care of myself. Right. You know, and I do think like I've been thinking the last column I had was sort of about a males and one thing I wanna, I always wanna remind people. Some of them are going to be super, super hard and ugly and scary, but kind of most of the time people are just happy you're so, yeah.
[00:37:34] Yeah. Seriously. That's been my experience too. Yeah. And also there are all these times that I think I, I hurt somebody, but really I just embarrassed myself, which is different
[00:37:48] and there's not really an admin. There's just. Like acknowledgement, acknowledgement. And, uh, and [00:38:00] also that's the right sizing. The sort of in me, I feel like this has been the theme here is like sometimes I think the mistakes I made are a lot. I mean, they still were bad. Like I don't, you should not minimize your behavior, but there's a difference between shame.
[00:38:14] And actual hurt. Yes. And it's really important to distinguish between those two things, because if you carry shame into an apology, not going to do a lot of good. Yup. So
[00:38:28] Laura McKowen: it's so hard for, it's so hard to, to understand that that's why th that's why amends comes after a bunch of other
[00:38:36] Ana Marie Cox: stuff. And why, like, I'm always advise people when in doubt, don't do it.
[00:38:40] Like if you're still carrying a lot of shame and guilt, you know, do the amendment that you do is to work on yourself and stay sober until you're ready to do this next step. But I would never push anybody. And to do into making, into, to confronting [00:39:00] someone about a thing that they still felt shame about.
[00:39:02] Yeah.
[00:39:02] Laura McKowen: I agree. You had a great line in that column. Um, yes, it's something I did, but it's not who I am.
[00:39:13] Ana Marie Cox: Yeah. That was really, it was a real gift to like that way of thinking about it. I came from a therapist and. I bet, you know, this feeling it's when you remember a thing that you did or were reminded of it for some reason, and this it's, I feel like it's almost this full body shiver.
[00:39:30] Oh
[00:39:30] Laura McKowen: yeah. Usually I do
[00:39:32] Ana Marie Cox: shiver. Yeah. And it just runs down my back and it's this incredibly, like, I feel a flesh, you know, like a, like embarrassed, like a flush of embarrassment, my blood and the way that I have to deal with that now is that yes, that.
[00:39:52] I kept too. You have to acknowledge it and then deep breath. And I'm a different person now. [00:40:00] And I am, I am by staying sober, already working on repairing that damage. That's right. And that's all I can do at this moment. And it's enough and it's enough for now. It has to be enough. Yeah. Sucks, but it's acknowledgement.
[00:40:21] That's really important too, because that's when we're, when we're in our using, I think we just run away from the acknowledgement that we did that, you know, or we, or we like wallow in it. Right. Which is also not useful. No.
[00:40:36] Laura McKowen: Yeah. I loved it because I have a, a thing that I have said to myself is I don't live there anymore.
[00:40:42] But it was missing that first part, which was sort of always implied in my mind, but it's very helpful to say yes, I did that and I don't live there anymore. What always would come when I would let myself go through that cycle, the acknowledgement and the, [00:41:00] and the, I don't live there anymore, is it would, I would be so grateful.
[00:41:05] It would, I would, it would. Allow me to feel grateful for the fact that I don't live there anymore. Like it pulled it. Alchemize the shame for me.
[00:41:16] Ana Marie Cox: Yeah. So comes back. I mean, shame is a thing that we continue to work on. I think women. Especially, you know, have a lot of shame around our use and the behavior and our used cars, some of the behavior of women in using, although it's the same as men carries different cultural weight.
[00:41:34] Yes,
[00:41:35] Laura McKowen: absolutely. Especially
[00:41:37] Ana Marie Cox: mothers. Yeah. And so the shame can be pretty intense. It's just like any other painful emotions, just like, you know, the one that comes to mind is grief. Cause that's what I'm working through right now. Um, which is that, you know, you don't get done at a certain date [00:42:00] and you may never get done really like that.
[00:42:02] Flush of shame. My hope for myself is that there are fewer and far between. Yeah, but aren't they, I mean, yeah, they are, but like it's, I can't expect to like B B done. Done. No, you know, I mean maybe at some point with some of the stuff I will be yay, but I don't know. I have to, I think I had to be ready for like, I'm gonna work on this until I'm not working on it and I don't get to pick that moment.
[00:42:29] No.
[00:42:30] Laura McKowen: Oh, you don't agree with that? I, I suppose. I was so buried in shame. I mean, I just, I didn't think that anyone lived red and I couldn't imagine living without it. And then that was from way before I started drinking. I was just always embarrassed and ashamed and I don't feel like that anymore. I have anxiety.
[00:42:53] I have regret. I have fear. I have all those things [00:43:00] and I feel ashamed occasionally. But it's not, I'm not swimming in it. And I know I now have tools to, to recruit, like we know, we know we know what to do with it, and so we can, we can move through it quicker. I think that's the big thing. It's like, you still go through all the shit, but it hits you differently.
[00:43:19] You know what to do.
[00:43:22] Ana Marie Cox: Yeah. And. I don't hate myself anymore. Like I fuck up all the time. Right? Like I am still selfish and insecure and anxious and I can be tone deaf about other people's needs. And you know, all of the things that humans do. And make some similar mistakes, not the same, cause I'm not using, and they're not quite so dramatic, but I can still like make somebody.
[00:43:58] Else's life a little diff [00:44:00] more difficult because of my behavior or hurt someone even unintentionally because of my behavior, but I don't hate myself for it. It's like a fucking miracle. Right. I
[00:44:11] Laura McKowen: don't think that you're just my, my therapist says categorically
[00:44:16] Ana Marie Cox: wrong. Yeah. Like it's bad. I did a bad thing. I did that.
[00:44:20] I did do this thing that hurts someone else. It happened. Um, but it's not the same as like who I am and conversely, oh my God. Dealing with other people that way too, is a huge deal. Right? Like being able to know that someone else isn't and I do in my bones, there are very few bad people in the world. I mean, that's might be controversial.
[00:44:45] Laura McKowen: No, I think that's basically true. I think there are a lot of. Sicker people
[00:44:52] Ana Marie Cox: hurt. People, hurt people, all of that. And they do awful, awful things. [00:45:00]
[00:45:00] Laura McKowen: But truly psychopathic people. Yeah. It's not, it's not an epidemic,
[00:45:04] Ana Marie Cox: you know, like it's, there, there are people that do terrible, terrible things. Most of them, I do not cross paths, you know?
[00:45:14] And so in my life, most of the people that I deal with, I mean, there's this, the amazing thing about compassion and the compassion that I grow in recovery is that it has to run before. I can't have just compassion for someone else and no compassion for myself. And I can't have just compassion for me and no compassion for other people.
[00:45:32] Like you feed one side and the other side benefits too. Like the more compassion I have for me, the more compassionate I can have for others, more compassionate for others, more compassion I can have for me, you know, and all of that makes life easier.
[00:45:50] Laura McKowen: Which one do you struggle with more?
[00:45:52] Ana Marie Cox: Oh, compassion for myself, for sure.
[00:45:54] Yeah. Same. Oh yeah. Um, like I said, I have to turn it. I, when [00:46:00] I'm in, when I'm in the worst place and I still get into some pretty dark places, especially like I said, this a, been a real, real pandemic. Um, what, what would I think, what would I want for someone else? Yeah. Someone that you
[00:46:20] Laura McKowen: love easily
[00:46:22] Ana Marie Cox: unconditionally, my mom, a lot.
[00:46:24] Mikel Ellcessor: You do?
[00:46:27] Ana Marie Cox: What would I want for her? What a gift that she couldn't do for herself. Yeah.
[00:46:33] Mikel Ellcessor: Wow.
[00:46:36] Laura McKowen: There's some writing in there. I would imagine
[00:46:38] Ana Marie Cox: I might be working on something. Oh, okay. Good. It might be, might be working on something about that. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, definitely though, like it's. I wanted her to be able to take, to know that she was okay and that she was loved.
[00:46:59] [00:47:00] And I, in part, because I didn't want to have to be the one to prove it to her. Cause that's kind of what our relationship looked like sometimes is that she didn't believe that she was loved unless I
[00:47:07] Laura McKowen: love. Yeah. And what a burden, what an impossible task for a child.
[00:47:13] Ana Marie Cox: Yes, very much. And it was exhausting. Um, and what a gift it would have been for both of us.
[00:47:26] If she had known that she was just left.
[00:47:29] Laura McKowen: Absolutely. Well, like you said, you get to still have that relationship with her
[00:47:37] Ana Marie Cox: still working on
[00:47:38] Laura McKowen: it, still working on.
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