What if your body was your closest friend instead of…whatever it is now? Jamie Lee Finch is a wise guide for so many women who are asking - what would a healthy relationship with my body look like? In this conversation we go deep into why we need to relate to our bodies like A PERSON and the healing that can come as a result. Virtually NONE of us are free of body issues, whether they’re around our shape, or desire, or how we change with aging. Jamie’s unwavering stance for our health, wholeness and living an integrated life is the message we need to hear right now. Jamie is also the author of You Are Your Own: A Reckoning with the Religious Trauma of Evangelical Christianity. Next week, in the second half of our conversation, we’ll explore what it’s been like to deal with the lasting effects of having been raised in purity culture and so much more. Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2LdiPlkf5XqJiNPr8yKqD2?si=a7a9878a8eb845a4 Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/
Tell Me Something True with Laura McKowen
Jamie Lee Finch on Purity Culture, Sex, and Befriending Your Body (pt1)
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. If you're listening to this, you're not hearing the complete unedited version of this conversation. If you want in on that, you can get it by becoming a TMST plus member. Just head over to our website at tmstpod.com and click support. All right. Enjoy the show.
[00:00:30] So with this conversation, we're doing something completely new. This is part one of a two-part conversation with Jamie Lee Finch. Jamie's a coach and an educator who has helped so many women discover what a healthy relationship with their body could look like. So we go deep into her thoughts on why we need to relate to our bodies, like a person.
[00:00:55] Yes. And the healing that can come as a result. Jamie is also the author of you are your own a reckoning with the religious trauma of evangelical Christianity. Next week in the second half of our conversation, we'll explore what it's been like to deal with the lasting effects of having been raised in purity culture and so much more.
[00:01:20] Virtually, none of us are free of body issues, whether they're around our shape or desire or how we change with aging. So this is one we hope reaches as many people as possible. Jamie's unwavering stance for our health and wholeness and living an integrated life is so moving. She is a woman you must know. So let's make that happen.
[00:00:37] So you have this bold statement that I love. You say your body is your best teacher, and I'm just here to introduce the two of you. So tell me what that means.
[00:00:44] Jamie Lee Finch: Well, the kind of underlying subtext underneath that statement of your body is your best teacher. In order for your body to be a teacher your body has to be a person, because teachers are people. And so the real core of the work that I do and the mentality that drives the work that I do, and the belief that drives the work that I do is this idea of body personhood, and being in relationship with the person of your body, as opposed to a dynamic of objectified it-ness of the body, which is kind of what most of us have been raised in.
[00:01:27] And most of us have just been socialized into is literally and figuratively referring to and interacting with our bodies as objects and calling them an it. Once you start working with this idea of body personhood and calling your body by a personified pronoun, you start to hear that it word everywhere, and it starts to kind of feel grading.
[00:01:46] But until that point it's so normal. So this idea of your body being your best teacher, what I mean by that and kind of how you get there is through this recognition of the full personhood of your body. The fact that your body is a person and them being a person means that you are in a relational dynamic with them, where communication is happening two ways.
[00:02:08] and that there's kind of a responsibility that you have to that person and that that person has to you in that space of that relationship. So when you acknowledge that and you are interacting with your body as a person, then over time, your body does emerge as this deeply wise and compassionate teacher who your entire life has only ever been doing things in your direction to make you as safe and as stable and as well as possible.
[00:02:38] It's just that our perspective of many of the things that our bodies are doing and have done…our perspective is, is often very altered by the, the ways in which we've been socialized to think that they're objects, they're not. So a lot of what I want to do in both my one-on-one coaching and in my online course and just anything I do with this body person could work is get people, walk people to this understanding of this concept and then move out of the way so that they can hear the person of their body and listen to the person of their body more than they might be inclined to listen to me as their idea of a teacher, I might be a temporary stand-in teacher for a bit, but I really want, I want to do more than anything is move out of the way and say your body is actually your teacher. I’m just here to get the two of you talking to one another.
[00:03:31] Laura McKowen: That's beautiful. Do you look at it as different then, I always think of your body as an animal, but maybe you're saying similar things. Do you actually get people to give their body a persona, a name? I'm a little curious about the visualization of an actual person or is it you, not you type of thing?
[00:04:05] Jamie Lee Finch: It's a little bit of both and the way that this emerges for each individual person who works with it again, whether it's clients that I've worked with one-on-one and coaching or folks that are going through my course, I do group coaching facilitation in my course, or people can just take it on their own.
[00:04:22] It emerges differently for every person. The thing that I, I don't want to necessarily use the word require, cause it's a gentle requirement, but it is vital to this process is the use of changing a personified pronoun. So changing the word it to he, she or they. But beyond that, it's different for everyone.
[00:04:45] So I've had clients who have an actual proper name emerge for their body. So they started referring to their body by a specific name, whether that's a human name or maybe just an affectionate [00:05:00] nickname, like a term of endearment that they consistently go by. There also are used the word visualization, like individualization of it. There are actually visualization exercises. In my course that came from the one-on-one work that I do where I'm prompting people to imagine entering into and occupying and staying in kind of a therapeutic, conversational space with the person of their body. And in that visualization, they're just allowing whatever emerges from their own creativity.
[00:05:30] I like to kind of fill the space for them. So everything from if maybe their body doesn't even look like them, maybe the person of their body doesn't look like the idea of who they know that they look like. So everything from that end over to what is the space look like that you're occupying? It's funny recently in a group coaching session, I had asked that question to one of my groups and well, I have two different groups, so it was very interesting getting the feedback from both different [00:06:00] groups and hearing people share, because for me, my kind of space that I've imagined sitting with and communicating with my body was very kind of therapeutic in some sense, like a therapist office.
[00:06:11] And I was hearing my, my group coaching clients say things like, a cabin, like an isolated cabin is where they would meet the person of their body. Or like there was one person or a couple of people who had mentioned their space wasn't a space that they’ve ever been before, but it was an amalgamation of previous spaces that had made them feel safe and secure.
[00:06:31] So like a library or, you know, just pulling things out where there's a wall of books and the word cozy came up for a lot of people. So this specifics of how you interact with and engage with, and therefore communicate with this person and how this person reveals their personhood to you is very unique to each individual specific person, but it's all predicated on this base acknowledgement of, okay, I need to stop [00:07:00] calling you an it and start calling you a, he, she, they, because you are a he, she or they, you are a living being who, and everything that goes along with being a living being is something that I'm now setting myself up to expect to receive from you.
[00:08:02] Laura McKowen: [00:08:03] So, I love that. Love it. When someone calls you or reaches out to you, what do they say? Like, what are they looking for?
[00:08:12] Jamie Lee Finch: That's a great question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that question on a podcast before, and I don't know why now. Cause that's really right. It's like, that's a beautiful question. So they definitely don't call because they don't have my phone number. But the channels where they reach out, that would be a little bit overwhelming, email forms, the submission on my website, social media DM. Usually the language that is used, generally there will be some sort of lead in with I heard you on a podcast or I read your book usually just to contextualize, but then I've gotten everything from straight to the point 1 or 2 sentences of communication like [00:09:00] I feel disconnected from my body or I don't feel alive or, you know, something like that, very short and simple. And like, can you help, all the way to the other end of the spectrum of someone saying I encountered your work in this way.
[00:09:12] I heard you talking about the way that you have this relationship with your body. And it spoke to me in a certain way, because here's what I've been through. And then I get like paragraphs of their individual and specific trauma and then the, can you help?
[00:10:07] Laura McKowen: And would you say most people come from the background that you did that evangelical background?
[00:10:12] Jamie Lee Finch: Definitely. I think that that is something that has happened because of the book that I wrote, which was, and remains in my mind, very separate from the embodiment work that I do. But I understand that because I do both, they've been fused together.
[00:10:32] A lot of people place me in this kind of religious deconstruction space and I don't place myself there because the work that I do isn't there. I'm wanting to do, and I do more about this broader idea of what is disconnected us from our bodies and authoritarian religion in many forms is one of those things that has disconnected us.
[00:11:18] And a lot of people that reach out to work with me in various capacities. One of the things that does often come up is that because I have a shared background to them, there is this sense of safety in, I don't have to attempt to get you to understand what therapists, previous therapists or lots of people in my life, like can't seem to understand about the impact of purity culture on me, or, you know, the way in which being raised in a high control fundamentalist, religion, stole my relationship with my body from me.
[00:11:53] So it makes sense to me that that's the majority of people who reach out there are definitely [00:12:00] complications with the fact that that is a highly traumatized group of people who generally, when they reach out to me are not that long out of being in that space.
[00:12:15] Laura McKowen: That's I asked because I was wondering if people came to you, like if the body, if they actually, I'm surprised that people even have the language to say I'm disconnected from my body. And maybe that's just what the way in is to the conversation.
[00:12:38] Jamie Lee Finch: I think you're right about it is kind of surprising. Here's what I think happens very often. And definitely not for everyone. A lot of times when people leave, we'll just name evangelical Christianity specifically. There is a component to it where they have felt like relationship to their sexuality specifically has been shut down because it was [00:13:00] required to be shut down whether that is because they're queer and that part of them never got to emerge or because, you know, they've just wanted to have sex and that was off limits unless you're in a heterosexual monogamous lifelong marriage.
[00:13:13] So there's so many different reasons and aspects and ways in which our relationship as human beings to the full expression of our sexuality was, very, in some cases, like violently shut down when we were there. And so I think the reason why people are able to access the language of, I don't feel connected to my body is because what they're specifically saying is I don't feel connected to my sexuality.
[00:13:39] So I used to actually refer to myself as a sexuality and embodiment coach. I have retired the sexuality part of it in the, in the title only because for me, when people would come to work with me, because that sexuality piece is right on the top of their mind, [00:14:00] understandably, they would want to jump right in there.
[00:14:03] And what I prefer to do is back up way, way further than that, and start talking about some of the other things that have shaped their relationship to their body in general, because sexuality and the expression of our sexuality is just one component of how we are in our bodies and how we live and move and be in our bodies.
[00:14:23] So starting there, there are definitely lots of coaches and therapists and people who start there and that's great. I have never, I'm not specifically equipped to start there. It's not really where my training is in necessarily and it's just not really where my interest is in. I'm here to help people recognize the person who did their body connect with that person, develop deep, invested, communicative relationship with that person.
[00:14:46] And as an outgrowth of that overarching work, their relationship to their sexuality will change over time. And it’s clients who that's been the energy where they've come in guns [00:15:00] blazing. Like I want to work on my relationship to my sex life or the fact that I can't orgasm or the guy I just figured out I'm queer and I'll pull them back and we won't, like the joke has been I've done this job for like five years now, the joke has been for a while that so many of those people who come in wanting to work directly on that I'll acknowledge that in a consultation and then we won't revisit it for like four months, but then by the time we revisit it, four or five months later, there's so much that they'll tell me has already changed without us even directly talking about sex itself or sexuality itself.
[00:15:36] Laura McKowen: It makes so much sense. It's a, it's one of the presenting the most acutely presenting symptoms to them, probably because they get so much feedback about it. That's a great way to put it. In the world. Right. And, and with others in, in relationships. And there's probably so much repression and so on, but it's like alcohol.
[00:15:56] Like I work, you know, my history [00:16:00] is in addiction and alcohol and, and the drinking has to be addressed, but it's just the tip of the iceberg. There's all this stuff underneath. And yeah so that makes a lot of sense. So you, you have a course called your body as a person and you say the simple shift that holds the key to personal healing and collective justice, which I think is so interesting.
[00:16:26] How did you arrive there? Personal healing is pretty intuitive, but then collective justice. How did you end up there?
[00:16:33] Jamie Lee Finch: Yeah, it's kind of an audacious statement. It's the most honest one I can think of because what I'm not saying is like me as an individual person, like I have the answer. What I am saying is this recognition of body personhood answers so many of these questions that we keep trying to answer in other ways and keep not really finding any path forward. So obviously yes, the personal healing part is pretty, pretty [00:17:00] clear, but the collective justice aspect to it, this is something I go really deeply into in the first full module in the course, in module two, where I'm talking about the existence and impact of intersecting systems of oppression.
[00:17:15] So the ones that I directly name in the course are capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy, authoritarian religion, ableism, and fat phobic diet culture. There's plenty more. There's lots of them, those are the umbrellas, there's ones underneath those, but those are the ones that it felt most useful to succinctly name and not just name, but talk very in no uncertain terms about the impact that the existence of these systems and the fact that we are born into, depending on where we occupy as far as privilege or, or oppression with each one of those systems.
[00:17:51] We're born into participation and or complicity with them. We're born into the position of being most depressed by them. [00:18:00] And so we are deeply affected by them and that is all happening in and through and with, and according to our bodies. So for example, with white supremacy, obviously my body is affected by the existence of white supremacy, but someone who is not white, their body is so much more deeply effected by the existence and impact of white supremacy.
[00:18:18] And if we're going to talk about body personhood, and if we're going to talk about personal healing, we also have to talk about the fact that what you have been taught about your body, you have also internalized and projected outward onto everybody else's body too. So using capitalism, for example, it's like one of the easiest examples.
[00:18:40] A lot of us have this internal. Belief about our bodies, that if they get tired or if they get sick, um, that they are lazy, that they're trying to inconvenience us that they're, they're just like bad machines that are breaking down. So we have that belief about ourselves and what having that belief about ourselves causes us to also do [00:19:00] is project that belief outward onto other people often in ways that are knowingly or unknowingly agreeing with the socialization and talking points that we've received about like certain types of people, whether they're people of color, disabled people, fat people, whether regardless like we've been, we've been given these hierarchies of like who fits in the category of lazy, who fits in the category of productive.
[00:19:27] And therefore, because of that, the subtext is who fits in the category of bad and who fits in the category of good. So when we believe these things about ourselves and when the impact of the body and a gating and body harming messages of capitalism are affecting me and I can benefit from divesting from those and learning about the personhood of my body.
[00:19:48] Being more gentle with her, learning that like rest is useful and divesting from these ideas of capitalism. Additionally, when I do that, I'm also divesting from [00:20:00] that maybe we'll call it an impulse, a survival impulse we'll say to project those same ideas outward, which then causes me to label and to judge and to further participate, especially if you're a person with privilege.
[00:20:14] So I have thin privilege, I have white privilege. I have all of these privileges that if I am not divesting from those actively in my personal life, I will continue to project those outward and I will continue to participate in these systems in the ways that they continue to oppress people who are not me.
[00:20:32] This is why I needed to bring the collective justice element into it. Especially as a white woman, because in a lot of embodiment spaces or healing spaces, self-help spaces, what you encounter a lot is that the self healing part of it, the personal healing part of it is enough.
[00:20:56] And the conversation ends there. And how this benefits you. And even when I was creating the course and working with my team to figure out how to market it. The people I worked with had worked in past situations with past people who used all of the marketing best practices.
[00:21:14] And we're like, well, that's what we need to hone in on is how can this benefit your individual personal special life? And I'm like, we can't, the content of the course goes further than that and explains why that's necessary. So even in the marketing, we have to go further than that and explain why that's necessary.
[00:21:31] So it grew out of the knowledge and awareness and the education I've received in the past few years of learning about this. But it also grew out of this deep dissatisfaction from the fact that I am a chronically ill person. I am, I'm a disabled person, invisibly disabled, but disabled nonetheless. And so these self-help spaces, these, very typical self-help spaces.
[00:21:59] Like I never [00:22:00] felt like they were talking to me because my body is not, I can't mind over matter myself out of a chronic illness. Like that's never going to happen. So I have to you can't absolutely not. No. So it's, it's nice to think about the fact that the benefit of the self-help things and the courses.
[00:22:21] And it's really nice to think that we can personally benefit from those, but I'm also interested in, in the world and like creating a more just world where my body who will never stop having a chronic illness, doesn't have to do so fucking much to survive like that. I'm also equally as interested in creating that world.
[00:22:38] So in order for that to happen, we have to take what we're learning inward and let it work inward in order to push it outward as well to create new systems.
[00:22:49] Laura McKowen: I'm really glad we're talking about this. As talking about both personal [00:23:00] healing and collective justice, because it seems to be one or the other and I'm not saying always. The book I'm writing right now is about nine things and the first two, are it's not your fault, and the second is, it is your responsibility. And so I'm curious about how you think about personal responsibility inside of that because it's still an individual process, but, but I would guess that [00:24:00] the value that you're trying to bring is, is a deeper empathy of the collective and just like, look at the water we're swimming in type of thing.
[00:24:09] Like you like the things that you're not aware of because they are ideologies. That's the definition of an ideology is you don't know you're in it unless you step outside. Do you get resistance to this? What is the sort of constellation of feedback.
[00:25:18] Jamie Lee Finch: You're asking that question at a very fascinating time in how I'm viewing what I do and the position I occupy and how it is generally received.
[00:25:32] You would likely and correctly expect that the responses from let's say evangelical people would be like, not that great, what you may not expect is that there also [00:26:00] is this, kind of spectrum of responses from the very people who have consumed my work or have interacted with me, or maybe even like benefited from or learned from what I've created at some point, that over time there becomes this, resistance or difficulty, in a lot of people to continuing to support it. I've known for, I've known for a while. Now that my primary desire with my life in general, as dramatic as that might sound is to advocate for bodies period. What that means is that very often there are things that I will say and do that people are very confused by because I think the idea that a lot of people have of me is that I care about people.
[00:27:28] It's not that I don't care about people, it's that I care about bodies more. And so there's a lot of things that people, especially when we get into the energy of social media and what happens in those collective spaces and the way that the algorithm like promotes and provokes outrage and rage in the direction of real people like, which I have been one of the worst offenders of which very recently my situation like really caused me to slam on the brakes with that. This will continue to be the thing that causes me to be misunder.
[00:29:55] Is that I will always advocate for bodies. And very often that's going to make [00:30:00] people feel like I'm not advocating for people according to their idea of what they think people need. And I'm not saying they're wrong, but what I am saying is you cannot like, again, you can not mind over matter you're way out of your physiology and what your body knows is needed in order to be stable and be here and actually connect and actually really learn.
[00:30:23] Because if you want people to learn from their mistakes of which I have made many publicly, if you actually really want to hold me accountable, and you really want me to learn from those, you have to let me involve my body in that process, which means you have to trust me to do that process with my body, which means I can't do it for you immediately.
[00:30:42] I can't. Nobody can. It's not just me. Nobody can.
[00:30:49] Laura McKowen: When you say I'm for bodies, what I hear is because you don't have humans without bodies. Okay. So it's like, what, what do you mean when you say that, are you for nervous systems? Are you for equanimity, more equanimity overall? What does that actually mean to you?
[00:31:31] Jamie Lee Finch: [00:31:32] My body has been a person to me for like seven years. So at this point it is second nature.
[00:31:52] My brain considers what she needs for me in a situation, which means I have had to learn a lot about specifically nervous systems. [00:32:00] I've had to learn a lot about trauma, the mechanics of trauma, what happens in a state of activation. I've had to learn a lot about even, it's not just trauma related stuff like sleep cycles and why, you know, taking care, drinking lots of water, you know, the normal things, all of the normal things that bodies need to be well.
[00:32:19] But when I'm thinking about the things that bodies or my body needs to be, well, there's a relational component to it. There's an intimacy component to it. There's a care and a love that goes beyond watering a houseplant or attending to an object. There is this really deep spiritual care. And the best word I can use is there's an intimacy to it where I am driven by my connection with my body, my awareness. Because she's, like I said, she's been a person to me for so long. So I am often occupying this emotional space where I'm like, you do so much for me. I love you. How can I take care of you?
[00:33:04] Why do you want, what do you need for me? So again, there's basic fundamental things that all bodies need, that we have to start becoming more mindful of because the things our bodies need are often very different from the things that we think we need in moments of overwhelm or unrest.
[00:34:27] And also there are specific things that each individual unique person and their individual unique relationship with their body has learned. They need, if we all need grounding. Yes. If we only grounding when we're in a state of activation, well, what does grounding look like to you? That can look like for some people going on a walk and for other people can look like taking a bath.
[00:34:45] So I don't get to demand of you that you, first of all, I don't get to demand that you don't ground. You meet me right here right now, because I need you to, and second of all, if I even give you the permission loosely use word to ground, I don't [00:35:00] demand that you ground the way that makes sense to me. I let you know your body, I let you know who they are and who you are and I let you have that process. Let again is a weird word to say there, but yeah, I get it.
[00:35:12] Laura McKowen: Yeah, that's amazing. It seems to me that it's really a way to, to not dehumanize people.
[00:35:19] Jamie Lee Finch: That is, yes. That's the most appropriate word you could use right now. Because again, like this has all really doing this at all, but then doing this in an increasingly public visibility, has been that working with that energy of dehumanization, trying to figure out how to resist it and finding myself consistently over and over and over, rather defeated in that.
[00:35:51] Just effort is a loose word in that desperation to not be dehumanized. Also now acknowledging on this side of it that [00:36:00] I have very much participated in that dehumanizing of other people too.
[00:36:05] Laura McKowen: We all do. Are you familiar with Lisa Feldman Barrett’s work? What I'm interested in is, she very much talks about when we are in this extremely agitated [00:37:00] state, our nervous systems are in this agitated state.
[00:37:02] There's two things that stop happening right away. So if you think it, this was really helpful for me in framing the past two years, almost that when we are in an agitated state, we cannot, we stop learning new things, period. We just try to take care of what's going on immediately in front of us, we stop learning new things and we stop moving our body.
[00:37:30] Because it's too much, our brains are prediction machines. And when we have that high level of unpredictability, we have to shut things down. We run on too much of a deficit so it makes it, it's like when you see when you and everything you're saying jives with that.
[00:37:53] Jamie Lee Finch: So I can keep going on this and given the work that I do, and I'm pretty sure I've said this, like [00:38:00] explicitly in the course as well, that like our brains and our bodies technically have the same job.
[00:38:05] They just go about accomplishing that, that job in like two relatively different ways. But that same job is to keep us alive. And so as you're explaining this like theory of like, okay, so what happens in a state of overwhelm? Like the brain will do these two things. It will shut down our ability to learn.
[00:38:23] It will shut down our ability to move. I hear so much kindness in that. Like, I understand that in, in many ways that would cause us to get frustrated. There's something so kind of because our that's our brain with the participation of our bodies going, okay, I'm going to funnel all resources into making sure you live through this, which means we can't get mad at them when they can't do all this other shit, because all the resources have been funneled.
[00:38:48] It also means, I mean, we can't get mad to our own, you know, frustration, but what it really, what I really want people to see and recognize is yes, the kindness under that, but also the futility of [00:39:00] trying to overcome that in order to be people with. That that is you. Can't like you just, this, the construction of this being and the two main parts, the brain and body and how they talk to each other is brilliant.
[00:39:14] We know it's brilliant because we have, we're still, we're all still here. So clearly it's working. We've survived. So the idea that we now with these big old brains and these like, kind of rather egotistical, like ideologies thinking like, well, you should just be able to dot, dot fill in the blank. Nope.
[00:39:33] She's smarter than me. Like she genuinely, she's better at her job than I could ever be at trying to do her job. So why don't I just let the process happen to me, whether it's feeling a heavier heart emotion or, you know, existing in a state of overwhelm and allowing my body and my brain to be like, Hey, let me just take care of it, we can't learn something new right now. We can't move right now because we have to be shut down in order to work through this and move. [00:40:00] What if I just let them do their job, then what would happen? So that is the thing that I'm like, this is what I really want us to start. Not only advocating for ourselves individually, but just hands off and letting other people do that.
[00:40:15] And that is, so that is so opposed to the way social media has changed our brains in many ways, but specifically changed our brains in believing that expecting and demanding immediacy in any situation is appropriate or even possible. So, you know, we can order anything we want on Amazon now. So then it's like, well, I should be able to order up an apology from this person that made a public mistake.
[00:40:45] Laura McKowen: Just because I decided that without, with the limited context that I have, that they, yeah, it's a giant projection machine. It's quite frightening.
So we have to stop right there. And I know, I know it's a weird kind of cliffhanger sort of terrible, but like I said, we got into so much stuff. There was just no way to fit it into one episode. So please make sure you come back next week for an incredibly powerful conversation about surviving and thriving after religious trauma and how we can wound ourselves all over again when we get on the merry-go-round of seeking approval from others, it's insidious and pernicious and something I know too much about.
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Tell Me Something True is engineered and mixed by Paul Chuffo. Michael Ellcessor and I dreamed up this show and we're looking forward to joining you online and next time on Tell Me Something True.