How do you show up in relationships? Jim Zartman is a certified Enneagram teacher, a former Midwest megachurch producer, a father, husband, and the Co-Founder of The Art of Growth, a top-rated Enneagram podcast and company of the same name. He also happens to be one of Laura’s best friends. Laura brought Jim on to break down the three types of relational energy we tend to inhabit, how each can cause pain and dysfunction in our relationships, and the magical fourth type, or “with” energy, that he believes is the path through to peace. Jim’s the first to tell you that he doesn’t have the answers, but he’s a hell of an example of how awesome the process of growing up can be. Get to know Jim better: You can connect with him through his site or you can reach him and the entire team at The Art of Growth. Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST, hear uncut interviews, and keep it ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/ Join our free online community (it’s not a Facebook group!): https://www.tmstpod.com/
Tell Me Something True with Laura McKowen
Jim Zartman on The 4 Types of Relational Energy
Hey. Laura here.
This episode is special to me because it’s a conversation with one of my favorite humans, a dear friend in real life, and someone I actually see in the flesh on a regular basis.
Jim Zartman is a certified Enneagram teacher, a former Midwest megachurch producer, a father, husband, and the Co-Founder of The Art of Growth top-rated Enneagram podcast and company of the same name.
Jim and I met back in 2017 through a Facebook group for people who were attending a Rob Bell event in Boston. I noticed from his posts that he lives one town over from me and was talking about the Enneagram, which I’d recently become obsessed with. Soon after, I met him and his wife for breakfast and before we parted, I said, “So we’re friends, right?” to which he laughed and replied, “Yes, I think that’s what’s happening here.”
As you’ll hear, Jim’s been a huge part of my life since then. He’s one of those friends who truly does want what’s best for me, and can often see what I’m growing into before I can.
Jim has become an honorary member of my sobriety community, The Luckiest Club, as our resident Enneagram teacher, and when I invited him to present at our leadership retreat earlier this summer, he walked us through a new concept he’d been chewing on.
We were all blown away and I didn’t stop thinking about it for weeks.
I brought him on the show to talk about it in more depth so you could all hear it, too.
I guess you could call it a relational energy framework, and it describes the main types of energy we tend to bring into our interactions with other people. As with all tendencies, they’re usually unconscious, and without knowing, they can get us stuck in some really painful patterns.
Jim introduces a fourth type of energy, called “with” energy, and it provides a way
Naming these types of energy has already changed the way I show up in some of my relationships, particularly ones where I feel like I want to “fix” something or someone, which is far more often than I’d like to admit.
If you struggle with painful patterns in your relationships, and let’s be honest, who doesn’t? This conversation is going to be really helpful (and possibly a little cringey). But as Jim will tell you, shame has no purpose here, so rest in the energy of compassion and grace and possibility while you listen.
If you want to talk about the episode after you listen and join the free community.
Enjoy.
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: So let's begin. Hi, my dear friend, Jim Zartman!
[00:00:04] Jim Zartman: Hi, my dear friend, Laura McKowen. I was like, how does one begin on Tell Me Something True.
[00:00:10] Laura McKowen: Just like that. It's fun to see you like this because we see each other, we just saw each other two days ago in real life.
[00:00:18] Jim Zartman: No, this is very different than when we were like hanging our feet over the back wall, into the ocean uh, the other day. This is like so professional. I'm like, am I even uncomfortable? Okay. I got to get comfortable. Everything's fine. It's Laura. We're fine. Everything's fine.
[00:00:37] Laura McKowen: So I want to start by having you take us through your career, your work path. And I know you're like me where it it's hard to, to get in and under five minutes, because there's so many twists and turns. And I, I want people to get a sense of who you are and how you arrived at this, where you are with work today. So start maybe with the church days.
[00:01:10] Jim Zartman: I'll go back even further. I'll go back to my very first job where I was landscaping for the cutest girl in the class, her family, and all day I listened to soundtracks and like listening was always my favorite thing.
[00:01:25] I just love auditory absorption. And then when I was 19 and I moved to Philadelphia and I worked as a janitor in a hotel and I listened to audio books like endlessly for a year. And it set me on this path of just being, oh my goodness. Life is fascinating and I want to learn as much as I can. And because I grew up in the church world, I kind of consider myself a survivor of Christian fundamentalism in the west.
[00:01:59] And it's a very specific thing. And that was the world I knew so that's the world I gave myself to and I was a musician. That's what I wanted to do. And so I had this decision when I was 17, that I'm going to sort of hit the peak of whatever that world is. And 10 years later, I was standing on stage in a 6,000 person church with the jumbotrons and the mics and leading the, these large bands. And then I remember just starting to have more and more questions. And then I kept running into things that, that just didn't make sense. And certain things started not making as much sense to me in the church. Um, yeah. And, and I was not coming in as someone who's like, when I say that, I'm not saying someone, as someone who is uninformed, but I sort of had these overlapping experiences where certain things were not squaring around the same time we had like the 25 year anniversary of this church. And so we all gathered in one place at one time. And so this was in Xavier university stadium in Cincinnati.
[00:03:23] And I remember walking out after playing and going, oh, is that it? It was a weird moment where I just felt let down. And I wasn't sure
[00:03:37] Laura McKowen: Because it was supposed to be this peak experience.
[00:03:38] Jim Zartman: Yeah. Yeah. And for so many people around me, it was. And I think this is the thing that we are all trying to figure out. I don't think it's all about like having some, you know, monumental, like I have to figure out my purpose and then I have to dedicate my life to it and then I have to monetize it.
[00:03:54] And I just think that whole thing, the thing is a trap, but like, am I applying my energies in the direction that best serves who I naturally am and where I naturally best serve the world
[00:04:10] Laura McKowen: You start in like working in the church world around 17 and then this, this peak experience happened around 27?
[00:04:19] Jim Zartman: I started leading actually in being on adult bands when I was like 15, um, I was, I was going to learn, yeah. I was going to learn to do sound and they heard me singing at the sound board and asked me to join the adult band. And then I was first hired in that full on capacity at 27. And I was there until my mid thirties, but it was like, yeah, my early thirties, I had that experience and it was like this. Moment that I think a lot of us face where we're going, oh no, what does this mean?
[00:04:47] Like, my life was like about, you know, having this family and all of a sudden my family is coming apart. My life was all about this career and it's not the right career. My life was all about this mission. And I think I adopted someone else's mission.
[00:05:01] Laura McKowen: Yeah. You, you invest everything into it and it's you have this very terrifying moment of disillusion because, oh shit. If it's not this, then what, and what does that mean? What do I do now? So what happened after that? When you, what happened? Cause you were married at that point.
[00:05:23] Jim Zartman: Yeah, so, uh, my wife and I have been married for this year 17 years, at least that part of my life has always been really good and really made sense, but to make a long story short, there was something about moving to Boston.
[00:05:39] My whole body settled. And I think I was too contentious for my environment in Ohio. A lot of times people don't pay enough attention to their bodies and your body is the part when you're in someone's presence, like I'm comfortable in this person's presence. In this work, I feel solid in this work in my body.
[00:06:02] Laura McKowen: We don't even talk about that in culturally it's societally it was like, how does this feel to your body? You know, if you're not in yoga circles or you're not in certain circles where, where we acknowledge us, it's like, is this a logical decision? Does it make sense? Does it, you know, is it part of your project plan?
[00:06:21] Jim Zartman: In the Enneagram we talk about there being three centers, the body of the heart and the head and how, you know, you had a body first, like in the beginning you had a body. And then if you've been around small kids, they are these bodies with all these emotions, just flailing about. The head doesn't fully function, as far as your whole prefrontal cortex functioning fully until your mid twenties, but the head comes on and we rely on it for everything.
[00:06:45] We think information will matter, but information is not transformation. Information itself is not curative. Just because you know something doesn't mean you actually change. I mean, there's tons of people that know everything and are doing nothing about it. So much matters.
[00:07:04] Laura McKowen: And if you're a type like me, like a, like a seven. I'm like, just give me more information. I know that will fix it. I mean, you said to me once, like, no, you actually have to feel your feelings, not just thinking about it. I was like, fuck you. It was like this mind blown moment.
[00:07:23] Jim Zartman: That's the goal of my life is to get people to say to me, fuck you in a good way.
[00:07:29] Laura McKowen: You've gotten me to do that many times. Luckily it's, it's what I love.
[00:07:35] Jim Zartman: Yeah. The way good truth feels. And I've had this happen to me so often is there's a confrontational aspect to it. There's a challenge aspect to it, but it can only come through in that way, because you know, that person is like in your corner or like wants your best and yeah, that I think the energy can only kind of come through in that regard. Yeah. And so it's a, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful moment.
[00:08:08] Laura McKowen: I say that dishonesty, or I suppose you could say untruth, feels uncomfortable, but confining. And when we hear the truth, that also feels uncomfortable, but expansive.
[00:08:24] Jim Zartman: Yeah.
[00:08:25] Laura McKowen: You know, you know the difference when you feel it, both things are uncomfortable, but one is one's expansive. So back to the journey. So you took a trip to Boston and your body was like, yes.
[00:08:39] Jim Zartman: Yeah. And you know, when we started, we started working together and Joel was really on the edge of burnout. And that's his kind of story to tell, but we stumbled into the Enneagram and he did it because he was in burnout and I did it because I thought it would help me understand other people better.
[00:09:01] And then I was confronted with myself, which I think happens to a lot of people. We, we'll go in to something often, not even for the right reasons. Like I think that's happened to me a lot. I've gone into something for the wrong reasons. And then I am confronted in the process and that confrontation is a beautiful one.
[00:09:18] And we recorded a series of live panels, which we call Enneagram panels. So of the nine personality types in the Enneagram, Enneagram just means ennea 9 in Greek gram type or figure. So there's nine types in the Enneagram and we did panels. We recorded them because Joel needed to do that for his certification process.
[00:09:41] And I said, Hey, let's throw these on the internet and see if anyone listens to them. And then,
[00:09:45] Laura McKowen: And by panel you mean, you had said, cause I was on this. You had several people of a certain Enneagram type sit together and talk
[00:09:53] about what it's like to be. Yeah.
[00:09:55] Jim Zartman: Yeah. What's it like to be you because a lot of times Enneagram teachers will describe someone or what it's like to be that, but they can never really do it because it's not, they're not embodying that. And I think we come from the narrative tradition, which is very much like, how do you embody, how do you express your type? This is not put you in a box. This is the, you are here spot on the map.
[00:10:18] And then you are your unique expression of your type. And so we wanted to do that. We thought this might be helpful for someone. And then all of a sudden we check one day and it's like in the top 10 of any Enneagram podcasts and we're going, well, we should do another season maybe.
[00:10:34] And so we did that and now we're starting to get contacted from around the world. Like maybe we should turn this into a business. So it went from being the Enneagram Panels podcast, and we sat down with Laura McKowen and she like gave us some plans and things that we should work on in the business. And renamed it. Remember that Starbucks?
[00:10:54] Yeah. We came up with all these names and then you said the Art of Growth. And it was like, that's it, that's it that's because that's what we are. The Enneagram is a big part of it. But even what we're talking about today is adjacent, but it's really about people taking their next step. And I think this is what I call the wisdom industry.
[00:11:13] If you want to be in the wisdom industry, you're trying to help people take their next step as I take my own, you know, now I definitely do not see myself as above or beyond anyone like I have to be, I have to be in this with you or it has no authority.
[00:11:33] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Oh, you just reminded me of something. I meant to bring up to you. Uh, that I heard on Rob bell. One of Rob Bell's recent podcasts, one of my favorite episodes he's ever done is everyone is looking for you. And he talks about that Jesus's ability to have compassion for the people around him was indirect, was indirect relationship or direct proportion to his ability to understand, to know what he needs.
[00:12:15] He himself needs. That required him to have boundaries. The central part of the story in that podcast was Jesus was at, in a certain town, you know, had provided a sermon the night before tons of people were there and it was a big success. And, and people were knocking on the door all throughout the night in the morning saying, we need you again.
[00:12:43] And we have questions. We want this, they were going to his, his I don't know what the right name is. But they were going to his, like, he has a, he has a team around him.
[00:12:55] Jim Zartman: Yeah, the team of disciples. Yeah. So he was like 30 years old. And then when a rabbi is like 30 years old, they'll have a bunch of people who are like late teens, early twenties, who kind of are learning from them, and they also kind of, um, manage the time of, of the teacher. Yes. And so after this is actually in mark one and Jesus is, uh, you know, oh, he's just done all this incredible healing and speaking all this stuff. And then the morning comes and yeah, everyone's looking for you.
[00:13:28] Laura McKowen: Yes. The next morning everyone's looking for him and his disciples are freaking out like, hello, we need to give them more. We have to give them more. Right.
[00:13:38] Jim Zartman: Crowds are ready to go. Let's do it. Big success. Let's do it.
[00:13:41] Laura McKowen: And it says, uh, Hey, everyone is looking for you. And all Jesus says is like, let's go to the next town where we'll, come on. Let's go. Doesn't even respond to him. Doesn't even, you know, acknowledge that other people, you know, everyone's looking for him.
[00:13:55] Jim Zartman: I think what a lot of people, when they talk about this Christ figure is so many people. When they talk about the define it's an external entity or power or energy, it is something other than it is the interventionist God, that's out there somewhere that I want to come and fix this thing over here.
[00:14:18] And what the Christ embodies is the incarnate, which is the God within. What if the divine is embodied in all of us. And we all have an obligation of what to do with that energy within us. It pulls away from dogma, but it definitely pulls us towards a responsiveness instead of a reactiveness. And that's what Jesus is doing in that story. He's going no. There's a lot of agendas and there will always be a lot of agendas and we have to be clear and clear on our know so that we can live our fullest yes.
[00:15:01] Laura McKowen: But it's not coming from a place of I'm better than you. I'm detached from this. And to bring it back around to the work in the Enneagram, what you found, I think because I was there for this part of your journey, what started to light you up was being in a room with these different types and experiencing their energy and their what it's like to be them firsthand.
[00:15:30] Jim Zartman: Well, what's, it's so funny because I think we all sort of inherently believe that we are normal and everyone else's some aberration of normal, like this is what normal looks like. And then there's these other versions that are not quite normal or we project our thing onto them. Right. So we go in one of those two directions and sitting in these rooms with like a room full of people that are not like me and going, wow, they are wholly other. And I mean that in all of the different ways you can mean the word wholly, wholly, and completely and wholly as in wow, wholly other.
[00:16:10] And I love that. I think I fell in love with people in a way that I never had before. And I wasn't as angry or frustrated by where other people were at because of my type and my Enneagram my own story. My energy came from being angry or caffeinated. And when I ran out of anger, I was really exhausted. And then I had to find a different energy to walk with.
[00:16:41] Laura McKowen: So that evolved into what is now The Art Of Growth. What is it?
[00:16:50] Jim Zartman: What is the work? Yeah, that's the continually evolving question. And I have to ask myself that question all the time, which is, what do I want to see more of in the world? I want people to be fully seen, like all of it, all of it has to be seen, welcomed as such with no shame or fear, anger, any of that, just welcomed and empowered to go towards the direction.
[00:17:21] I often refer to like that redeemed version of yourself. That's calling out to you to move towards it. And if I can do that with my life, that is a day well spent. And often it happens in the, in the minuscule, in the mundane, but that's all part of it. The dirty enlightenment, as you know, I call it.
[00:17:44] Laura McKowen: Dirty enlightenment. Yeah. Well, you, you are doing, I mean, you do do that both, you know, in your work, I've seen you do the actual work, which we're going to get into next, but personally, I mean, that's who you are. That's who you've been to me for sure. You have been one of the very few people that in my life that calls the, the absolute best version of me forward.
[00:18:10] And doesn't at all shame me for being wherever I am. That loves that, too.
[00:18:17] Jim Zartman: Mm. Yeah. I mean, I don't like shame anymore. Being raised in the church, it's something that I was all too familiar with, but I now am very familiar with the fact that shame, it just gives that illusion of moral advancement without any of its benefits.
[00:18:36] Laura McKowen: So now I'm going to bring us up to the point where you introduce this concept that we're going to focus on. In late, no early July, I had a retreat for my company for The Luckiest Club where 18 of us on the team, the majority of the team got together at this retreat center for a weekend, you came and spent time with us.
[00:19:05] And you did a bit of a talk about, and one of, one of the things that you talked about, the whole team was talking about for the rest of the retreat. And I actually, hadn't heard you talk about it before, and it was this concept of with energy and I've been thinking about it. So what is it, where do you, where'd you come up with it? What is it?
[00:19:30] Jim Zartman: Yeah, so I started the talk by saying, with is the energy of breakthrough. And I saw people kind of like looking at me and couple of people were writing it down, but, okay, where is this going? What is going on right now? Why am I writing this down with energy? So I'll back up, uh, give a little bit of the structure and I'll try and make it as, as simple and clear as possible.
[00:19:54] And just to make a note, we have all the types within us. So we all use different aspects of all of these energies at different times, but the one of the premier ways that those types move through the world with their energy is kind of at whether it's at through charm, at through convincing. I have to convince you right, of my great idea or of just force and decision, even when it's for you. Like even when they're trying to help, it can feel critical. It can feel aggressive. It can feel intense to a lot of us because at tends to divide the world and we've seen a lot of at, or against energy in the world right now, we were talking a little bit about this because at divides the world into for and against. In out. Right wrong.
[00:20:46] And so even when it's trying to help, even when it's trying to, it's trying to get you to join the right side or join the right perspective. There's a fear that's motivating this. There's an there's an, which creates this anger so that I can feel safer. It becomes force. And so even at the best intentions, even when people are trying to help, if they are applying at energy. And we've all seen this, like, right. So we've heard someone speaking and we've just felt this. It just feels like you're coming at me right now. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:21:20] Laura McKowen: There's a need, like, I need you to be here. I need you to, or be there. I need you to be on this side. I need you to get it, right.
[00:21:30] Jim Zartman: And that's exactly well put because it's, I it's my need.
[00:21:33] Right. So I'm trying to meet my need. I need you because I am uncomfortable with where you are. I need you to be where I am. And, um, I know that in, in your work, uh, you had a couple experiences where you really experienced this energy. Um, and that it was, it was hurtful because people who you thought were, oh, these are people who are with me.
[00:22:00] Right. But really it's conditional. And that's, I think a big thing about at or against energy. It's very condensed. Yeah.
[00:22:09] Laura McKowen: Yep. So at or against energy are, we're going to call them the same thing at coming at coming against energy are the same.
[00:22:21] Jim Zartman: And we've seen it. And a lot of times people use certain public figures as a proxy for their at energy.
[00:22:28] Like, well, that person just tells it like it is right. And that person, well, they're, you know, they don't hold anything back, you know, they're, they're really speaking there and there, what they're really saying is I wish I could say it like that. I wish I could be. Sometimes they're very intelligent or articulate, but there's a real force, forcefulness to them.
[00:22:48] Right. And so,
[00:22:49] Laura McKowen: And we like that energy in a way.
[00:22:52] Jim Zartman: Yeah, we do. It feels very solid, and secure. Like, oh, I'm, I feel insecure. And this person sounds so certain and it doesn't matter if it's a political figure or a pastor or a preacher or a religious leader, there's a dogmatism to it. And even if they're presenting it with charm, there is a clarity and people long for clarity.
[00:23:16] Laura McKowen: Yes. We crave certainty. We, we absolutely crave certainty. And if we can't hold paradox for a number, any number of reasons, I mean, children are the best example. They live in this space of, of either or black or white in order to make sense of the world.
[00:23:36] They have to split it. This is good. This is bad. And it's a natural part of maturation in a way, but a lot of people stop there and cause it's really hard to hold paradox. It's really hard to hold nuance. It's really hard to, to acknowledge complexity and to allow it to exist. It's confronting. Right. And if you think about one of the ways that we, the primary ways we express ourselves and receive information now is online and through social media.
[00:24:08] Yeah. It asks a lot of, of the, both the recipient and the person communicating whatever it is to convey nuance. It doesn't work in a meme.
[00:24:20] Jim Zartman: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:23] Laura McKowen: We want the world to be digestible in meme format. And there was a study that I just read where the content that gets the most traction on social media is always confrontational.
[00:24:37] It's always divisive, it's picking one stance. It's actually what they referred to it as, as against when you are against something else that gets the most traction. It's a fascinating human study. It was a little terrifying because staying stuck there is it's limited. There's a, there's a big old ceiling on that.
[00:24:59] Jim Zartman: It's the power of noise, even though whispers get sustained through time, but shouts, they get attention of the moment.
[00:25:11] Laura McKowen: You, you, you reminded me of this in a beautiful way with, with my work.
[00:25:16] Jim Zartman: Yeah. Um, yes, because I was saying that you're doing something like wisdom. It tends to have a lower frequency level, its base, it just widens and it expands over time and there was some frustration as many of us have.
[00:25:33] With someone who's getting a lot of attention because they're a lot of noise and loud. If it's loud, if it's certain, and if it's against, you can guarantee it will get attention at least for a minute. It's a three-minute pop song of a one hit wonder. Yeah. That's how I see it. Yeah. Someone actually once said, in order to start a religion, you don't need a God, but you do need a devil.
[00:25:58] You need something to be against. And so when we talking about at, or against energy, yeah. And like I said, it's not always with ill intent. We're kind of looking at the negative side of it. But like a lot of times it does have a good intent. It wants to, it's trying to present a certain cause it's trying to give people something that they're craving.
[00:26:16] And if someone like feels that level of certainty, then it feels secure to others. I get it.
[00:26:25] Laura McKowen: I totally get it. I mean, I've been in that place before. It's the most acute or bright example in the, in recent history is how I had to be with sobriety. When you first start, it's like you have to push so hard, hard to have the boundary out and have it well-defined and this is good for me. This is bad for me. I mean, this is why people get judgmental when they make a massive life change because you almost have to, right? It's like you have to have that, that firm boundary that really defined, like you're, you're creating a new identity and that that identity needs space and time and a container in which to grow.
[00:27:14] And so you have to have this clear division and then over time you can allow paradox and new ones to come in. So I don't want people to think that we're shaming that as a whole, what the commentary is more on just staying stuck there and how enticing it is to stay stuck there and how limiting it is, how, how ultimately the wisdom isn't there.
[00:27:36] Right. The wisdom isn't there.
[00:27:38] Jim Zartman: Yeah, what I call personality is too much of a good thing. So personality is, is your natural tools, your natural tendency your natural gift overused. And so like at energy against energy is my home base. And I know that, but when it was the only one it's super limiting, like I still sometimes struggle with the nostalgia of my former certainty.
[00:28:08] But it just doesn't work anymore. It needed to expand. So let's talk about the next energy. So that's at energy. The next energy is, uh, toward and what toward energy feels like is what I call over ownership. So I see something and then I feel responsibility and ownership of, I need to solve it. I need to fix it.
[00:28:37] And a lot of times in relationships, this is like taking too much responsibility for the solution. This is what a lot of couples therapists are calling, one person's doing too much of the emotional labor. So they are doing all of the work. So, you know, the two people were on two separate islands and we have this bridge in between, but, but instead of meeting in the middle, one person is constantly crossing the entire bridge, trying to take so much responsibility for the connection.
[00:29:08] And this is the, this is the parent, right? The parents, like I'm just trying to help. And the kids like, let me do it because the kid needs to do it themselves. This energy means well, but it takes on too much responsibility and it needs to learn the not mine of life. And I get it. You're, you're wanting to help.
[00:29:27] You're wanting connection. You're wanting relationship and security and support, and you want to be heard and loved, and you want to make a difference in the world, but it's as an energy that it overuses moving toward. Yeah. Okay. So right. We won't go off on as much on that rabbit hole A because neither one of us are on that one.
[00:29:55] Laura McKowen: No, I don't have anything to say about that.
[00:29:59] Jim Zartman: You just sort of like grabbed your hair. Like, I don't know, like this is, but for some that really are, that will resonate that, you know, over ownership relationally, like I, we, we all get it, but that's very different than, you know, this last energy, which is the withdrawing energy or what we call away it pulls back.
[00:30:18] So it disappears from the engagement. It's trying . To like preserve individuality. So I have to withdraw to preserve my individuality or my resources. Right? My energetic resources. It's avoidant because it doesn't want certain kinds of disruption or to be overwhelmed. Now, some people think that they're being aloof or that they are detached.
[00:30:42] And sometimes when people like this, they start talking about meditations of detachment. I was like, no, no, no. That's the last thing you need. Like some of these others, like the toward people might need a little bit of detachment a meditation, but yeah, you got that down, but a way energy it's sometimes pulls back when it should stay present.
[00:31:02] Right.
[00:31:02] Laura McKowen: So would you say that, you know, ideally as we grow, we are stewards of all three of these energies.
[00:31:14] Jim Zartman: When you see the options on the table, like you said, it's not limiting, it's expansive. All of a sudden you can actually say, what is the energy that I'm overusing. So you want to tune into that. And then how do I actually come back to a more full, a more holistic approach, um, to life with the integration of these different energies.
[00:31:37] Laura McKowen: Okay. So what's the difference between the at and the toward?
[00:31:45] Jim Zartman: At is a lot more aggressive and it's got a finished product in mind. At is looking for a result toward is looking for a connection. So there's an underlying need. That's different there.
[00:31:57] Laura McKowen: Got it. That makes so much sense. My fellow folks in recovery, probably. I just imagine my them wincing, like, I do that so much.
[00:32:11] Jim Zartman: This is where the Enneagram classically ends is like, these are the three energies and I just didn't feel solutioned or satisfied with that. And it came out in a conversation with a person about how they were communicating.
[00:32:28] And I was like, when that you were communicating on that, it really felt at like at the people, like you were trying to get them somewhere and it needed more with, and as soon as it came out of my mouth, I was like, what's going, okay. Pay attention. Hold on. I'm on, there's something happening here. I'm paying attention to something.
[00:32:53] And Joel and I have had so many discussions about this and he's like, this is really with energy is really the counter to all of these energies. Like with is totally different. With, it doesn't hold up its own agenda. You know, it doesn't overstep its supportiveness, its boundaries. But it's present. That to me is what's so much is great about with energy. When someone is with you, you feel like, yes, they understand that we are two different people.
[00:33:29] We respect that, but I'm still present to who you are. I'm not trying to fix you. I'm not saying there's something wrong with you that I need to fix. I need to change you because of my anxiety. If you've had a moment where you feel like, oh, this person is with me, you feel incredibly safe. You feel incredibly supported.
[00:33:51] You feel like you can move forward, but it doesn't feel like force and it doesn't feel like over ownership. It feels like, oh yeah.
[00:34:04] Laura McKowen: Yeah. There's two things that it reminds me of is one that there's a beautiful part of Kahlil Gibran's book, The Prophet. I think it's the meditation on the piece on marriage, where he shows the image of two people standing side by side, not facing each other but standing side by side, in their own space, honoring the sovereignty of the other, but facing in the same direction.
[00:34:37] Jim Zartman: Yes, that is the epitome of with energy because toward her at can be face to face. And the withdrawing or away is like that back or back to back, but with is a side-by-side energy and you, you brought up marriage.
[00:34:56] So I think to embody this a little bit, I'll, I'll share this story. I, I wish the story that came to mind was one that made me look better. This one is like an example of where I was an asshole, but I think it's, it's more, it's authentic. So when my daughter was in kindergarten, she suddenly decided that she hated all of clothing and every single morning of our lives was a nightmare and a travesty of everyone's emotions shredded the first half, hour of the day, trying to get her ready and out the door.
[00:35:34] Like all the things I imagined in parenting, I worried about so many different things. I never thought that the most contentious things in our life would be around clothes. It shut down the house. And I applied so much at energy. So my wife is very chill, very peaceful. You use the phrase for her strong, a strong force, and that is really that that's really accurate.
[00:36:05] A soft force. Yes. A soft force. She is a soft force and that is very accurate, but she's very kind of, she's very sweet. She doesn't like have real highs and lows. She's pretty chill. My daughter is very intense, so she's a little bit more like me. And I remember this one day. I don't even know what happened.
[00:36:27] I don't remember at the time, I just know it was awful and I felt levels of anger that I have not felt since I was a teenager. And I'm taking Vera to school and walking her to school. And usually even if it had been bad in the morning, we would sort of work it out and we'd like, apologize and talk and we'll try this better tomorrow.
[00:36:49] And we would have that conversation. And then we try to repair on the way to school. That day there was none of that. Like I was frozen ice. I was made of brick and stone in that moment. It was force versus force, but I'm bigger and stronger and scarier as dad and I was just wanted the result. Like we have to get to school on time and it felt so awful walking her to school, but I wasn't feeling anything at that moment except for the anger.
[00:37:22] And so I walked her there. She went in and I just started walking. I didn't go home. I just started walking the neighborhood and then not only the anger was present, but then the shame comes up of like, why can't I handle this better? Like what could I do? I felt trying to come up with different solutions, but feeling so disempowered in my head.
[00:37:46] And so I'm feeling all of this anger, like all this fear that what's going to happen to my kid, if she can't even handle getting dressed, like, and I'm projecting that way out in the future, of course. And then all this shame around how I'm responding and it's just mounting kind of inside of me and my wife texted me and she could have said a lot of things.
[00:38:08] She could have withdrawn and she could have confronted me and she would have been absolutely right. It wouldn't have been helpful, but it would have been right. But she also didn't just try to move toward me, like, oh, everything's fine. And on all, like, we'll fix this and didn't no platitudes on that. I don't remember exactly what she said, but it was, I know that was really hard for you.
[00:38:35] I know that was really hard on all of us and I'm with you and we'll figure this out and the stone and the ice melted away. And I just started like crying, walking down the street and going that with energy. It saved our family that day. We could have been contentious all day with each other.
[00:39:01] It changed the atmosphere in the home because there was no longer this at versus withdrawn versus toward like, none of that was going on. It was with, and because she was able to bridge that, she broke me with her love. Because that with energy, it isn't ultimately concerned with who's right and who's wrong.
[00:39:23] But how to move or return. It's about the return to health, about re-engaging that connection and that is the energy. I really want to carry so much more because when you see the beauty of it, and that's the thing about with energy, you just feel like this is beautiful. And I think this is what I want for people is like, if, if we're actually going to have a more grace filled world, we have to notice these patterns of, am I being at, am I being toward?
[00:40:01] Am I withdrawing? And we have to be with, we have to be with each other.
[00:40:06] Laura McKowen: You've told me that story before, but I've never heard it slowed down like that. And. I, I get it in my body. I feel it it's it's grace. There's so much grace in that, in that energy. There's so many things held simultaneously at once with a simple statement of I'm with you.
[00:40:32] Jim Zartman: Yeah, it holds the grace and the truth together. Like it wasn't like let's ignore the truth and pretend something didn't happen. And it's not like everything is okay, but it held grace and truth together.
[00:40:45] Laura McKowen: Yeah. You can still, there's accountability there. There's you have your part I have mine. There's no shame.
[00:40:55] Like that's one of the big pieces of it. You can see, as you were talking, just how, how things fall apart so extraordinarily in personal relationships, marriages, friendships, families, communities, our culture at large, because we can't seem to embody this with, and we just can't, we can't, we only know what we are for in so far as we know what we're against.
[00:41:27] It ends there, it takes extraordinary awareness of your own wholeness, meaning your limitations that you, that you embody all of it, that, that whatever that other person doing is separate from you. That's not within you. Right. What you said that broke me as she broke me with love in that moment.
[00:41:51] You know, I think love. Gets this sugar coat-y, everything's fine. Let go. Excuse all. Whatever behavior. That's not what that is. There was weight in that
[00:42:08] Jim Zartman: And nobody resists that with energy, it breaks down resistance. You know, we resist the at energy. We resist someone moving toward us, like, ah, this is my life.
[00:42:20] We move. We resist when someone is moving away from us. Cause like, where are you going that away energy. But with energy, we don't resist that. It breaks through. It's so loving. It's so loving because it is boundaried and present.
[00:42:36] Laura McKowen: Yeah. And we, we, we might mistrust it. I know I have. Really, especially if you're talking to someone you don't who you expect to be against you, which is my experience that you meant that you had alluded to,
[00:42:54] Jim Zartman: But with is willing to earn trust. With is willing to earn the trust.
[00:43:01] Laura McKowen: Right. And with the, the thing I think that's so powerful about it is it acknowledges each other's humanity. We have such low expectations of others. We have such little belief in other people. I don't know if it's a, it's a lack of belief in basic goodness. What comes to me is that when you come towards someone to fix them with a certain result in mind, which is a lot of what we see.
[00:43:35] Jim Zartman: Yeah. Very agenda driven. Yes.
[00:43:37] Laura McKowen: Or if you come towards someone because you want to take over, you want to do the work for them. The presupposition underneath that is you can't handle it. You're not capable.
[00:43:54] Jim Zartman: You're not enough. You're not enough. Or you're too much. The two messages that we constantly have to deal with.
[00:44:01] We all grew up hearing, right. You're either not enough or you're too much. So if you're too much, I need to stop it. Hold it back or move away from you. Yeah. Pull away from you. That's if you're too much and if you're not enough, then I have to like make you more or I just take over. Right? Yeah. And so these are all the different ways that we're trying to create a solution, but it's, it's a solution that is dehumanizing to others.
[00:44:30] It doesn't elevate the uniqueness of another.
[00:44:34] Laura McKowen: We don't see a lot of this with energy in leadership.
[00:44:37] Jim Zartman: No. Leadership tends towards either toward I take over and do it for you or at, this is what, this is what I'm going to do for you. And this is how I'm going to do it. This is why I'm with the diminishing of spiritual communities.
[00:44:54] Politics has become the new religion because it has, it tries to be all that certainty of the at and the security of the toward. But it removes responsibility from, um, all of us. And I really believe we never have any kind of a fulfillment in our lives unless we take radical responsibility unless we engage with ourselves and we call others to radical responsibility.
[00:45:23] And that is part of with. with can call others towards radical responsibility because it's not telling them what to do and it's not taking over.
[00:45:31] Laura McKowen: I'm trying to think of the teachers that are the leaders that I can think of that are that embody that, and I'll be, I'll be thinking about that for awhile.
[00:45:39] But aside from that, what the, the heartening message in this is at the individual level. It just, it exponentially ripples out when we encounter it. When we offer it. When we do the work that we need to do internally so that we can offer it because there's a certain level of awareness and growth and growth, I would say, and wisdom that one must not just learn about, but experience within themselves in order to be able to offer it.
[00:46:15] Jim Zartman: Yeah, completely. And this is why I think so many of us are pulling our energies more and more towards this and wanting to be like that. It's like, this is literally my job all day is to be with people like, so this is when I get off of this call and I'm going to be on a call with someone I've never met.
[00:46:33] I've never had a conversation with, and my whole job will be to be with them for 90 minutes to let them be fully seen, um, to be welcomed as such and empowered towards the direction they went in. That is now the question that is driving at the heart of, uh, what I want my interactions to be like. Can every interaction I have, can I be with the person I'm with? Can I be with the person I'm with, if I was to sum it up in a bow, like ask yourself that question.
[00:47:08] When you're going to meet with someone, can I be with the person I'm with. If I do that, you've done everything that is required of you for the day.
[00:47:20] Laura McKowen: Yeah. When you say that, because I learned so much from you, you know, just to sort of call myself out here. I would say my job is also to be with, with people, part of it, but I watch you be with, in that with energy.
[00:47:35] And I learned from that because I I'm very seduced by self-righteousness. I'm very seduced by toward energy. And especially at like very seduced by that it's that is, I would say that, you know, the, the primary energy that has animated me throughout my life is I've got it. I'm going to do it. You know, this is how it's done.
[00:47:57] I'm going to give you the answer.
[00:48:00] Jim Zartman: But your writing doesn't feel that way. I think people are attracted your writing because it feels with like, we are the luckiest. It feels like I am right there with you. You're taking me into your story, but you're allowing me to participate in it. Like I think that's what great writers do.
[00:48:16] I think. Great writers, I like, I'm not observing you. I'm I'm with you.
[00:48:22] Laura McKowen: No totally. I, yeah, no, I agree. And thank you for reflecting that . Back to me. Like, I, I mean, the writing does feel like when I, when I, my writing does feel like with energy and when I'm talking about something like, you know, getting sober where that is so humbling, I know that experience so deeply in my body that I can speak about it.
[00:48:47] Not from a place of intellectual know how, but like from embodied experience. Right? So it should, I hope it feels like with, but what I'm talking about is just, you know, and this is normal. I just want to call it, is like, the reason I'm even bringing this up is when you said, can I be with the one I'm with my first thought is that sounds like an exhausting way to live.
[00:49:14] But I, but I, I know that's a certain part of me speaking up. That's actually the toward energy voice, right. Because I think, oh, if I'm with that person, I have to, to feel everything they're feeling, I have to take it on. I have to, to provide solutions I have to, and that's not what it is, right. That is not what it is.
[00:49:40] It's one of the most amazing things about Todd is he is he's really good at being with. Like listening, but not trying to fix or take on. And sometimes it's frustrating to me, you know, it's like, wait, no, get mad with me. Like do this with me. Like join in the, whatever it is I'm spinning out about and, and offer a solution or show, you know?
[00:50:07] And so it's, it's a,
[00:50:08] Jim Zartman: He's like, I'm cool, man.
[00:50:09] Laura McKowen: He's like, no, I'm good, but he's not, it's not that he's not. Right. He's totally present to it and he'll bring it up. He's not owning it. He's not owning it. And so, so I, as you were saying that I had my own sort of full circle process of going, oh my God, that sounds exhausting.
[00:50:29] But, but it's something I've had to learn is to not own it. And what it actually means to be with is not that I think we mistake that a lot.
[00:50:38] Jim Zartman: Yeah, and I think the days that I'm most exhausted is when I started feeling my energies get pulled in all the other directions. Like when I was actually with someone, I like it was fine. Um, because then I left and I was, you know, I was me, I was in my own space, it's all good. I wasn't still holding on because I didn't have some agenda from the at or toward energy, like carrying on.
[00:51:04] We can rest. We can rest in that space. I think that's the whole thing is I want the idea of with energy to be freeing. I want for people to understand that they don't have to get pulled and yanked around. They have other options. Like, so it's not narrowing. It's, it's freeing. It's not like, oh, you were these other energies now you have to be this. It's like, let these energies dance, let them be in a, in a play together and be like, you know, I could, I could apply a little more of this. This is another option on the table for me now. I want it to be expansive, not limiting. And I think that's the whole thing is the right truth, it is expansive. It's not limiting.
[00:51:40] Laura McKowen: The reason we talked about this for 90 minutes, or at least an hour is because you, it, it takes that to really define and define what something is, but by you also have to define what it's not. And there's so much there. It's a simple concept, but that doesn't mean it's easy, right?
[00:52:00] It's, it's a simple concept, but it's not easy and it can be so much goes into being able to be. In with energy, you know, all your attachment shit comes into play and all your trauma and all of your, you know, all of that.
[00:52:16] Jim Zartman: Well, all transformative concepts are simple to understand and difficult to do. We often look for the complicated, we think it you know, like, like, how do I get, how do I get sober?
[00:52:31] Right. And it's simple to understand it's difficult to do. All transformational work is that way, I think.
[00:52:37] Laura McKowen: And you practice and you practice and you practice just like we were talking about the other day. You get, you get a new set of information or you get something that kind of won't leave you alone a lesson or, or something, and then you are set off to practice it. And sometimes for a long time.
[00:52:55] Jim Zartman: I think, I think anything worth doing is worth doing badly. And so I'll practice this, the rest of my life it's worth it's worth my time.
[00:53:04] Laura McKowen: It is absolutely worth your time. Where do we find you?
[00:53:08] Jim Zartman: Yes. It's where do people find me? So the hub of all our work is the art of growth.org.
[00:53:15] You know, check out the Art of Growth podcasts. You want to find out more about the Enneagram or our work. And I am just honored to be on this journey. I'm honored to be on this journey with you. I love, I love getting to be a part of this. It's just so, I feel so lucky. I, you could say the luckiest one might say.
[00:53:33] Laura McKowen: Yes, one might say we are.
[00:53:35] Jim Zartman: Oh God. Did I really do that? I'm sorry.
[00:53:39] Laura McKowen: That's where we'll end it.
[00:53:41] Jim Zartman: Sorry, not sorry. Fair enough.