Let’s be real. The words “Love Addiction” can trigger a massive eye roll. Jodi White gets it and she’s here to show us that it’s real and a lot more common than we think. Jodi draws on the groundbreaking work of Pia Mellody and builds on it in a way that is comforting, clarifying and hopeful. Jodi is open about the ways SHE’s struggled in this area and we talk about what it’s like to be love anorexic (yes, that’s a thing). We dig into Mother Hunger and some of the other behaviors that prime us for love addiction. Wondering if this is for you? The three primary symptoms of love addiction are: assigning too much time and value to another person, neglecting ourselves while in relationships, and expecting unconditional positive regarding from partners. This is one of those you may need to listen to a few times. There’s a lot in it and it’s packed with goodness from Jodi. Don’t forget…there’s a Spotify playlist that accompanies this episode and if you haven’t become a paid subscriber, we hope you’ll do that. The support of all of you who get something out of these conversations keeps them going. It matters. Jodi’s site: https://www.jodiwhitelpc.com/ Jodi’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/jodiwhite_/ Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/47-jodi-white-love-addiction-mother-hunger-codependency Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3extzRzZ2Xvy5rAq9aZAvt Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/
Tell Me Something True
Jodi White on Love Addiction, Mother Hunger and Codependency
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey,it's Laura. Welcome to another week. I have someone here today who means the world to me and has helped me so much personally. I just adore her and respect her so much. Uh, Jody white is an Austin based therapist who is doing really extraordinary work, guiding people through love, addiction and codependency.
[00:00:36] The first time I heard the phrase, love addiction, I definitely rolled my eyes and discounted it completely. It sounds stupid, but once I understood what it actually meant, I will, I avoided it for a couple of years. And then I got interested because I needed to. And Jody was the one who guided me through.
[00:00:59] [00:01:00] That gnarly terrain. She is super specific about the way she struggled, which is so helpful and something you don't always get in a therapist. Uh, she draws on the groundbreaking work of PML study and builds on it in a way that is really comforting and clarifying. She builds on it. And also
[00:01:27] hopeful
[00:01:29] in this conversation.
[00:01:30] We talk about what it's like to be love anorexic. Yes, that is a thing. We dig into mother hunger and some of the other behaviors that prime us for love addiction. And we talk about three primary symptoms, which you can find in the episode description. This is definitely one of those that you may need to listen to a few times, there's a lot in it.
[00:01:57] And even we struggled with kind of [00:02:00] getting it all out there. Uh, so I hope you enjoy it. Uh, I hope it is helpful more than anything. Whenever I talk about this stuff, which is by the way, going to be the topic of my third book, uh, I noticed people lean in because it's something that affects and impacts so many people.
[00:02:25] So many, uh, so don't forget there's a Spotify playlist that accompanies this episode as we do for everyone. And if you haven't become a paid subscriber, we hope you do that. The support of all of you who get something out of these conversations keeps us going. It really does matter. All right. Are you ready?
[00:02:48] Here is Jody white.[00:03:00]
[00:03:01] Jodi White: All right, so we'll officially start. Hi, Jody. So good. Hi Sierra. Good to see you too. So
[00:03:08] Laura McKowen: I asked you to come on to talk about something that we, that has become a topic, a big topic for me in the past several years. Meeting you and I thought a good way and would be to tell everyone what you do and then talk about why you got interested in love addiction.
[00:03:34] Jodi White: Okay. So I am a therapist and I specialize in trauma, but I really like to always whittle that down to not just trauma attachment trauma, not just attachment trauma, but relational childhood trauma and co-dependence and love addiction. And so what really, we're talking about trauma, and, you know, I [00:04:00] went back to school at 40 years old after working in the magazine industry for 16, 17 years.
[00:04:07] Thinking that was what I was supposed to do, which is also big part of my story, how I suffered through that for 16, 17 years. And, um, knowing I wanted to work in the helping field and want to be a therapist. So I'd go back to school at 40, to be a therapist thinking I'm going to, um, specialize in substance abuse because I thought that was really important.
[00:04:28] And, um, not talked about enough and this was talking about this stuff. Cause then I always knew I probably had a little bit of a, you know, issue with my alcohol use. Let's minimize that at the time. You know, I'm just codependent and I drank a little too much, you know, that was my story. So I'm going to specialize in substance abuse.
[00:04:50] And so I go through this program and this training and I end up working, um, in a trauma crisis center for [00:05:00] my internship. Meanwhile, my life is. You know, I know there's something not quite right with my relationships. And so then as moving forward and a lot of time in my internship, actually, you know, which was about two or three years to get through that, I was what at the time, and I didn't know this, but at the time we were calling it love anorexic.
[00:05:24] So I was, oh, not dating. Have you heard that term? Love anorexic? No. How often
[00:05:32] Laura McKowen: do you don't date? You don't have sex. You don't, you're like isn't celibate.
[00:05:35] Jodi White: Yeah, but not. But my story was that my story was that I was just busy and I was in the process of changing my life. Um, I was doing so much work on myself.
[00:05:48] Meanwhile, I wasn't really in therapy at that time, but I was in my internship. So it kind of felt like there'd be, you know, like I was doing some sort of therapeutic thing for myself. So not understanding that the [00:06:00] disastrous relationship I had when I was in grad school. Led me to shut off a huge part of myself and protect myself.
[00:06:07] And that, that wasn't the first time that had happened. I had done this sort of what people will sometimes call love anorexic. I don't love that term. I don't like it, but I'd done that several times throughout my life. Really what I was doing was protecting myself. I was just being hyper avoidant. Right.
[00:06:22] So you were no dating, no data, no nothing, no nothing. Yeah. And it all made sense to me. Of course, this is just, yeah, one day I'll get back into a relationship. Everything's okay. All that dysfunction is behind me because I'm doing all this work on becoming a therapist and it's not the same as addressing your stuff.
[00:06:43] And so, you know, time goes on. I moved to Austin. I decided I'm going to date again. And so here's what happened after three years of no dating, no sex. Within [00:07:00] two months of this new relationship, it was. Uh, disaster. Then I got out of that one immediately jumped into another one that was also with another, uh, love avoidant.
[00:07:11] I, that was also not great. Then I jumped into another disaster, a look like when I say disaster, I think this one in particular was, well, I had him on a pedestal of someone who probably had his shit together. He had done all this work and then, right, right. Uh, there was a lot of, a lot of, um, trauma in his life.
[00:07:38] I got my co-dependence flared up. My love addiction kicked in and we were completely immeshed within three weeks of starting dating. Wow. Three weeks. Yeah. I looked at that one as within that very short time of dating him. I was on the floor. I went from functioning pretty well to just being on the floor.
[00:07:58] Oh yeah. [00:08:00] And. So then this other person had come along, um, a musician here in Austin and I thought, okay, he looks safe. I'm going to jump into this one and soothe myself there, which I didn't know that's what I was doing, but you know, my ego, I start feeling better about myself. I started feeling more valuable getting up off the floor and he's also avoidant.
[00:08:21] And so then I go into, you know, trying to prove myself, trying to get his attention, trying to do that. Didn't work. Then another musician comes along, get into that. And it just, this is an example of within, um, this all happened within a year, 12 months, three relationships, the spiral. And what I call it is the ramp up of love addiction.
[00:08:47] Because if we don't address it early in life, it just ramps up and you go through the relationship cycle faster and faster and faster and faster sometimes just get to the point of like date. [00:09:00] Oh, yes. I can imagine that if I had continued to go, the thing is though that in this ramp up this cycling, we also fall apart faster too.
[00:09:16] And so finally, after a year of this, I have a friend who's a therapist here and she said, Hey, I heard, I know about this therapist. Um, I think she's pretty good. Maybe, maybe talk to her. Um, we still love addiction wasn't mentioned. And so I go in to meet with this therapist and she said, um, I mean, it was 15, 20 minutes of this first session.
[00:09:43] And mind you, I had been in therapy before. Yeah. Lots of therapy. And this particular therapist said, um, yeah, let me just tell you what's going on here. You're a love addict and you're attracted to love avoidant partners. And then. [00:10:00] She proceeds to basically describe every relationship I've ever been in.
[00:10:05] Wow. She is. Let me guess the guy comes on strong. You feel really good at first you seem really connected like, oh, this is great. And then as soon as you decide, yeah, okay, this is cool. I'm going to move forward. They start to pull away a little bit and then you start to feel really insecure and you start to try to grab onto it.
[00:10:23] Meanwhile, they're moving away, they're moving away, they're moving away. And meanwhile, you're spinning out of control. Right. And so, and then if you break up, they come back and then it keeps on like goes. And so it just, it made so much sense. And even though I ha I did not like
[00:10:41] Laura McKowen: the term. Yeah. I was going to say, what did you think of that term?
[00:10:44] Like where you, did you care or were you just kind of relieved?
[00:10:47] Jodi White: I was so relieved and I think the important part though, really important part of this too, to mention those, I was ready to hear. Yeah, you were yeah. Sick of it. [00:11:00] I was tired of what I, you know, I was tired of my own bullshit. I was tired of what I was doing to myself.
[00:11:06] Why did
[00:11:07] Laura McKowen: you decide to make this a focus of your work and what did you do after she told you that? Like what, what happened?
[00:11:12] Jodi White: Okay, well, let's start with that. What happened after? Cause that'll lead me into why I started specializing in this. So I currently broken up with someone, um, and we were still talking, we're still hooking up that we're talking, we're talking dinner for him.
[00:11:35] And so as
[00:11:37] Laura McKowen: you're like, before you went in there, can you just describe what you were feeling experiencing? Like what was your emotional state and were you drinking then?
[00:11:47] Jodi White: Yeah. Yeah. So the drinking would also ramp up with whatever I was dealing with with my love addiction. They went hand in hand. So I always, what I like to say is love addiction turned out to be my [00:12:00] thing.
[00:12:00] Yep. You know, right. Alcohol use was just along for the ride. Right. And, um, so I was medicating with alcohol and then when I would medicate with alcohol, I would do and say things that I regretted and then it would lead me into shame. And then it was just this whole cycle that was attached there. But I told this therapist, you know, when we're talking about love addiction, uh, I told her my theory that I was just codependent and, um, drank a little too much minimizing.
[00:12:30] And um, she said, yeah, well, once we work on this love addiction thing, it's going to change your relationship with alcohol. And she was right. But what I had to do, I mean, she didn't force me, but I had to take 90 days for myself. I knew I knew instinctually. It was the right thing. It was 90 days away from.
[00:12:52] Who was then my ex boyfriend. Yeah. Uh, and no contact. So it was, and I, and a conversation had to [00:13:00] happen. I had to have that conversation set that boundary, which was, I think the most painful moment in my life, because it felt like I was going to die. Yeah. Because that's what love addiction is about, you know, when we'll talk about this in a minute, but it's, you it's attachment and it's base, it's all due to an attachment wound and we're looking at that person as I need you to survive.
[00:13:27] Yup. So, yeah. And it is that
[00:13:30] Laura McKowen: strong having gotten through it myself and I'm sure there are so many people listening, going, oh God. Yeah. It does feel like that. And I'm not, it's not because I'm just like fucked up.
[00:13:42] Jodi White: Right. Yo, this is a real thing. And, uh, You know, I always thought I was, it was just me. I'm just crazy.
[00:13:49] I'm broken, whatever it is that I believed about myself. So I did the 90 days, which was very challenging. Um, but I did it and I think that's also a part of recovery [00:14:00] is you prove to yourself that you can do things that you believe you can't do. Um, but in that 90 days, I did, um, a Meadows based intensive, um, a weekend intensive, which is where you really dive into PML studies model and the symptoms of co-dependence and developmental trauma.
[00:14:22] And, um, that is what led me to realize here. I had been working in substance abuse at a subs, even inpatient at a substance abuse facility. And I thought about all the women who had come to me and reported these symptoms. And we were so focused on the alcohol. And I'm realizing so many of them were dealing with this developmental trauma and love addiction.
[00:14:53] And so I just, I knew that's what the work I wanted to do. Yeah.
[00:14:59] Laura McKowen: [00:15:00] Yeah. And since then, have you just, do you just feel that more and more, that, that it's obviously they're th they're connected, um, and it's like, what chicken and egg, like what comes first? I mean, I can see for me, alcohol was definitely, I think I had two things legitimately two things, but the, the attachment stuff came first.
[00:15:20] I didn't start drinking when I was three. Right, right, right. Um,
[00:15:25] Jodi White: and found other ways to medicate
[00:15:29] Laura McKowen: that. But as, so, so after those 90 days,
[00:15:36] Jodi White: then what, so after the 90 days. Let me just paint a picture of how I handle those 90 days. I needed something to, um, show me I was making progress. And so I printed up a calendar, you know, pages of the months and I put it on my fridge and I marked days, [00:16:00] because I needed to know I got through those days, the
[00:16:03] Laura McKowen: Friday counter, like I have not a drink in four days.
[00:16:05] Same, same deal.
[00:16:06] Jodi White: Yeah. And I kept, I mean, my journals just show everything I was feeling and thinking. And I wrote letters to him, like little notes to him because I needed to process feelings. Um, and you know, in those early days, especially it was still about him. So it takes time to realize this is about me.
[00:16:30] And so after the 90 days, um, yeah, and I also, I have to really say that. If all the relationships kind of had a lot of relationships in my life, uh, this was a different kind of relationship. You know, this is, um, well, he's probably the most functional person ever dated, which is why, um, you know, from start to finish when things blew up and I ended up in therapy, ended up doing [00:17:00] the 90 days.
[00:17:00] It was only three months that we were together. And before I set the 90 days, I communicated with him what I was learning about love addiction and love avoidance and what my part was, what it looked like his part was. And he was really willing to try all that on. So before you
[00:17:18] Laura McKowen: even went into the, took a break yeah.
[00:17:22] Jodi White: Yeah. And he did get into his own therapy because he also noticed some of his behaviors that I didn't even notice. So he was able to. On his own, he had enough awareness. Right. And so after the 90 days, I had promised that I would reach out to him. Um, and I think I waited 94 days just because I wasn't quite ready.
[00:17:48] I was at this point of, I feel so good. I feel so strong. Do I even want to talk to him? You know, but I said, I told him I would. And so we had a great conversation and, [00:18:00] um, we did not get back together right away. But about six months after, uh, the 90 days reset, we did re connect. I think it was about six months.
[00:18:12] We started dating again. And, um, we lived together now. Yeah. It's been a bunch of years, right? Yeah. We've been together for I've. I started recovery, work, love addiction, recovery work. I was looking at it today because I knew we were going to talk about it. It'll be six years this summer.
[00:18:30] Laura McKowen: Is it like being in a different relationship?
[00:18:35] Jodi White: Well, since we weren't together very long before I went into recovery, it is very much a different really weren't
[00:18:45] Laura McKowen: married for like 10 years. And then, yeah,
[00:18:48] Jodi White: yeah. Right. But I am very different than I've ever been in any relationship. Um, I, in my recovery, and this is if [00:19:00] anyone's in recovery or thinking about recovery, this is normal is to kind of go from the more quote, unquote love addict, uh, behavior or the side, the extreme to the more love avoidant side.
[00:19:12] And so the idea is that we eventually swing down to the middle where we're in the middle. And so I definitely have my more avoidant behaviors that come up now and, but I'm able to communicate them because I feel safe enough in this relationship to do that. Yeah. I think that's really important. Yeah.
[00:19:32] Laura McKowen: How is love addiction different than codependency.
[00:19:36] And is it different? Do they happen together? Like what's the difference?
[00:19:40] Jodi White: Well, I think co-dependence is, um, the term is used more frequently and I often look no judgment because I misused it for a long time. I think a lot of times we don't really understand what co-dependence really is and then explain it to, yeah.
[00:19:59] And [00:20:00] to know that they're okay. So here's the thing. Um, especially you get on Instagram hashtag co-dependence hashtag love addiction, hashtag attachment. I mean, there's just so much out there right now, which I I'm looking at it as, Hey, great. People are talking about it. That's awesome. Yeah. But this is also an opportunity to do your own.
[00:20:21] Uh, let's call it research, you know, your own, studying your own reading. Um, I. For my recovery and for the work that I do, I follow PML studies, uh, work on co-dependence and her really what co-dependence is. And I do think we are starting to move away from the term co-dependence. Um, so with P his work, really what that is, is, uh, developmental immaturity due to childhood trauma.
[00:20:55] I, and when we talk about childhood trauma, we're talking about [00:21:00] either a measurement or a neglect in childhood, uh, measurement
[00:21:04] Laura McKowen: being one, a parent or a caregiver was
[00:21:06] Jodi White: too
[00:21:08] Laura McKowen: immeshed too close with us, too. We got too much information about them. We were expected to play roles that. Right. Is it is, it is, it is a measurement, the, uh, reference to, uh, the effect it had on us or the quality of the relationship.
[00:21:28] Jodi White: It's the behavior. If you look at all Elvis's behaviors toward a child, right? So neglect
[00:21:34] Laura McKowen: the inmeshment is the
[00:21:35] Jodi White: behavior towards the child. Yeah. Th I like this definition that PA uses, which is, um, in a functional family, there is an umbilical cord that goes from the parent to the child, an emotional umbilical cord.
[00:21:51] And so the parent is there to serve the needs of the child with a measurement that umbilical [00:22:00] cord runs from the child to the parent. So there's right. So the parents, and these are just quick summaries, but it's like the parent leans on the child emotionally, um, looks to the child to caretaker. Or to, um, you know, validate them in some way or help them feel better about themselves or, you know, like daddy's little girl, that's an amendment.
[00:22:27] Um, the hero of the family, you know, the one, the golden child, the one that's on a pedestal. Yeah. That's also a measurement. Um, but also, you know, mom's best friend playing mom's best friend. Yeah. And you know, the, the child who has way too much information about mom and maybe mom and dad. Yep. Yeah.
[00:22:48] Laura McKowen: Okay.
[00:22:48] That's a measurement. And then
[00:22:51] Jodi White: the other
[00:22:52] Laura McKowen: side is neglect and that's, if there's an umbilical cord, it's just not there.
[00:22:58] Jodi White: It's just, yeah. The child [00:23:00] is just, um, neglected. So if you look at him on two extremes to write everything about P his model is really in extremes, as far as dysfunction is concerned. So one extreme is neglect.
[00:23:11] One extreme is a measurement with neglect, and it's what it sounds like. Um, the child is neglected and that can look like it's emotional neglect, which is what we call the silent abuse because on the outside it can look like the child has everything that she needs. But, um, emotionally, you know, is she getting the nurturing?
[00:23:31] Is she, is she getting, um, emotionally what she needs? So neglect can be much more challenging to recognize. Yeah. And especially, um, as we move into adulthood, we can have these stories of, well, I had everything I needed, so there was no time I wasn't hungry. I
[00:23:52] Laura McKowen: wasn't, I had a, had a poem in my head clothes I
[00:23:54] Jodi White: had.
[00:23:56] Yeah. And so there's, it's childhood trauma. Right. [00:24:00] And so we look at neglect and a measurement, and then we looked at, we look at the five natural attributes of. And so, and any wounding that took place around each attribute, right? So there's five, right? Uh, when is that? The first one is a child is valuable just for being here.
[00:24:20] They don't have to prove themselves, right? This isn't a functional family. A child is, um, vulnerable. A child is imperfect. Um, a child is dependent and open and spontaneous. So those are five things. That's just naturally how a child is. Right. But when there's wounding around any of those, right, then that's going to lead us into the core symptoms of co-dependence.
[00:24:48] So what is the
[00:24:50] Laura McKowen: codependent trying to create? Like, what are they
[00:24:53] Jodi White: trying to do? What is the codependent trying to do? So, so if you look at the wounding, all right, so let's look at the [00:25:00] symptoms first, the symptoms that go with each winning. So if we're wounded around our value, that's going to lead us to have an issue with our words.
[00:25:07] Or our ability to self-esteem. So we're going to go either one up or one down where either I'm better. Like if we're, if we're the hero of a family, we kind of are conditioned to believe I'm better than everyone, you know, or, um, become judgmental critical. Um, or if we're neglected, we're more likely to be one down.
[00:25:29] Like, um, I'm not valuable. I need to be play small in order to make everybody happy. That kind of thing. Right. Again, you got those two extremes, one up one down, right? So for wounded around our vulnerability, we're going to have issues with boundaries. So we might be either wildness. Yeah, or passive. So again, those are two extremes.
[00:25:49] There's no functional boundaries in there.
[00:25:52] Laura McKowen: And the issue is in the extremes. The issue is exactly because we're all, all of these things, but the issue is that we live
[00:25:59] Jodi White: in [00:26:00] the extreme. Exactly. Right. So it living in the extremes is where the dysfunction happens, right? Yep. Okay. Um, if we're wounded around our imperfection, we were all going to have an issue owning our reality, right.
[00:26:12] If we're encouraged to be perfect. So in order to fit in and be valuable in the family, we're not going to know what our reality is. Um, and reality is a really big issue in, uh, in love addiction, which we'll talk about in just a minute. But, um, then if we're winded around our dependence, you know, being dependent, we could be either taught as a child to take care of ourselves, take care of others, um, or.
[00:26:40] We might be over cared for meaning everything's taken care of for us. So we don't learn to care for ourselves. Right? Yep. That's going to lead to an issue with either being anti dependent. Like I got it. I don't need any help or I'm helpless dependent on some other people to take care of us, right? Yeah.
[00:26:57] Yeah. And then, um, the last [00:27:00] one is that issue with, um, being open and spontaneous and that's our natural attribute. And that is, um, if we're wounded around that then moderation. So we don't learn containment. Right. So those five core issues and you look at there's extremes within each issue or symptom. And so we vacillate, oftentimes we can just live in one extreme, but a lot of times we move back and forth.
[00:27:26] Yeah. And that's
[00:27:27] Laura McKowen: why it gets so confusing a lot of times too. Cause we're like, I'm like this and then I'm like this and, and you know, they'll say like, this was an issue for me. We'll say you're so. I guess if you just think about attachment style, like you're very anxious, but then sometimes I would be completely walled off and avoided and like, I don't want to have it.
[00:27:46] You're dead to me. I don't want to have anything to do with you, which is really confusing. Cause it's like, wait, no, I don't, I don't need someone, you know, until I do. And then I am like gonna die if I don't get their attention.
[00:27:58] Jodi White: Right. And so that's how I [00:28:00] look at. And so we can come back to the co-dependence because we're also talking about attachment wrapped up in here too.
[00:28:06] Right. All of this, if we're wounded around these natural attributes, right. That is also affecting our attachment and how we're attaching to our caregivers or parents, primary caregivers. Right. Isn't
[00:28:18] Laura McKowen: codependency and attachment issue though.
[00:28:21] Jodi White: Yeah. So if we look at, this is all attachment developmental attachment Gianna.
[00:28:27] Okay. Right. Yeah. And those five course, you know, naturally it's really what he does is she breaks down. Okay. Here's the deal. Children are these five things. Period, right. These five natural attributes. And yet in a dysfunctional family system, the parents try to get them not to be these five things in order to meet the needs of the family.
[00:28:51] And then that leads into the five core symptoms. Right. And then that leads into our dysfunctional behavior and adulthood. And [00:29:00] so before we talk about attachment, I just wanna answer your question. So what is a codependent person trying to get or trying to do, right? Yeah. So if we look at it through the lens of attachment it's I need to get, um, so I don't have a sense of self, you know, that sense of self was not nurtured.
[00:29:17] I wasn't launched into the world knowing who I was and believing in myself, I was conditioned to believe I need external validation. I need to get my wordiness by either making sure you're okay. So that then I can feel okay. Right? Or I'll feel okay if I, you know, do something for you. So it's all external focus.
[00:29:40] So that's what we're trying to do in a very simplified answer.
[00:29:44] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Yeah. And then how does that differ from a, what a love addict is trying to do or, or is it more about just, you know, what's the difference like between the love addiction and codependency?
[00:29:57] Jodi White: I always look at love addiction [00:30:00] as, um, like co-dependence on steroids in a way, because it's like we have with P S model, we have the, the natural attributes of the child and we have these core symptoms and then we have secondary symptoms that can develop out of the core symptoms.
[00:30:14] And that's where we get into the addictions. So with, you know what PSS is all love. Addicts are codependent, not all codependents are love addicts. Yeah. So codependency doesn't always develop into love addiction. So. What's been really great is, um, Kelly McDaniel's work, her mother hunger work because that, to me fills in the missing piece there.
[00:30:45] Yeah. And that, and she does, Kelly does define mother hunger as an attachment injury. And so in my work, what I like anything, my recovery, I still use [00:31:00] PS model, but then Kelly's work plugs into it. So nicely, so beautifully. I
[00:31:07] Laura McKowen: know it's hers about, I mean, I remember reading ready to heal, which is her first book and being like gutted for a week because it's so big.
[00:31:18] It is very true. Um, I haven't read mother hunger is, is, is it really focused on the mother literal mother?
[00:31:27] Jodi White: So. It sounds like it is right. Um, so hungry. Yeah. I mean it's and I think that's, what's so interesting. It sounds like it's so about mom. And I think that part of the reason, um, I think Kelly doing this work is so courageous is because on the surface it can look like we're blaming moms.
[00:31:48] You know, mom, mom is the problem when really we're talking about our culture and how our culture doesn't value moms enough and support moms enough and [00:32:00] doesn't value women the same way that they value men. So it's really about the patriarchy and how that then affects women and how we feel about ourselves.
[00:32:09] And then how we raised that. And so, yeah, it's big picture stuff. Yeah. Picture stuff. It's
[00:32:16] Laura McKowen: cultural soft, but it, it, it mean the individual, the individual. So any individual is impacted by this. It's not, it's not only women or men. I mean, it, it doesn't, there's not ascribed to any specific gender about any specific gender.
[00:32:30] It's a condition that any human can feel based on, uh, on their attachment wounding from
[00:32:38] Jodi White: childhood, the mother hunger work. Is that what you're? Yeah. Yeah. And Kelly writes it specifically for daughters. And I think the reason I would have to ask her this, but in the story in my head about that is because even though yes, I imagined there was mother hunger, possibly that men as boys experience too, that it is [00:33:00] not only.
[00:33:02] There's a daughter experiencing the mother hunger. Um, but then we're also confronted with what's happening in the culture around us, how we're being right. Societaly conditioned as women. So it's like double whammy.
[00:33:23] Mikel Ellcessor: Hi, I'm Michael. I'm the executive producer of tell me something true. And co-create the show with Laura? You know, we have one goal here, put something into the world that helps all of us figure out how we can have a better week. We think the best way to do that is to keep the pod ad free. So all of the work goes toward making something that's useful for you instead of hustling to keep advertisers happy.
[00:33:46] And this is where you come in TMS D plus is the membership program that helps to keep this show. And whether it's through a monthly membership or a one-time contribution, TMS T plus members are super [00:34:00] important because they help to pay for the pods production and distribution costs. When you're a member, you get to join Laura for member only events send in questions for the AMS and you get access to the complete unedited interviews.
[00:34:15] It's pretty sweet makes a difference and you can make it happen with a one-time gift or for as little as five or 10 bucks a month. If your situation is such that becoming a member doesn't work, it's all good. We hope you enjoy the show. Maybe share it with a friend or two, and we hope you check out the playlist.
[00:34:32] We put together every week on Spotify. Just search the playlists for telling me something true. It's free. And look, we're just thrilled that you're here. If you can become a member, can find the link of the show description, head over to TMS T pod.com. It takes less than two minutes and thanks a lot.[00:35:00]
[00:35:03] Laura McKowen: I actually really like the codependency on steroids phrase, because it makes sense. I mean, it's simplified, but I think it's actually true. I have an idea, a hypothesis, but why would you call it an addiction? Yeah. And
[00:35:20] let
[00:35:20] Jodi White: me go back to something you said a little while ago, which is how the alcohol yeah.
[00:35:26] Came first, but you also said I didn't start drinking when I was three. So something must've happened in there. Right. Okay. So it's the attachment attachment, right? Yeah. So we're looking at P as work. We're looking at Kelly McDaniel's work. And so let's look specifically at mother hunger and how this develops into, um, addiction.
[00:35:46] What we're calling addiction is that at an early age we learned. If we are in distress to auto-regulate, we regulate that's some thumb [00:36:00] sucking that's chewing on our hair. We have a blankie, we have a stuffed toy, whatever it is we're doing to auto-regulate because for whatever reason, mom, isn't available.
[00:36:11] Right. And, and even it's not about, let's not go into, this is a quote unquote, bad mom. This is mom who has to work, or mom who has other children, can't be at your side 24 7. Right. That's right. So we learn to auto-regulate the, the idea behind this though, is that we do this in a pinch, not, we don't, shouldn't have to quote unquote, shouldn't have to do this consistently.
[00:36:34] Yeah. But let's say when we're talking about mother hunger, we do, for whatever reason we have becomes the rule, not the exception. Right. And so then that develops some, like with my story, it developed into fantasy when I was setting. Ish. I mean, I was hardcore into my fantasy world and it was a very important part of my life.
[00:36:57] And so, you know, in my [00:37:00] fantasies, I was had really, I was living in LA, I was a grownup and I was married to Erik Estrada from chips. And, you know, I mean, I just had this great life. And what I've realized recently is that, I mean, I felt so good in these fantasies. I had everything I could possibly want. And, but Eric Estrada was actually barely in the fantasy.
[00:37:18] He was peripheral. It was really about how I felt. I felt so good, you know? Yeah. But he was a part of it. He, he needed to be part of it in order for me to feel good about myself. See, and so then that fantasy developed into, um, at one point I was, I, uh, pulled my hair out. There was, I had a lot of anxiety. I bit my nails, that's also auto regulating.
[00:37:43] Um, well then, you know, 13, 14 boys come along. You know, 14, 15 alcohol comes along. And so I'm audio regulating with alcohol and alcohol boys. Yeah. And so that is where [00:38:00] if we, if we look at the term addiction and I can't remember who said this, um, I need to look up who said this, but it was basically, we need to stop calling it addiction because it really is just, we're just trying to get our needs met and we're auto regulating.
[00:38:16] It was someone who, and it wasn't good for imitate. It was someone who, and I actually did an Instagram post and I still can't remember who it was. It was in a lecture that I watched. But, um, but it was something about let's, let's just say that it's not, let's stop calling it addiction. Let's we're auto regulating and we're learning.
[00:38:34] Our brain has learned from very early on. We have to auto-regulate like that in order to feel. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:43] Laura McKowen: Someone Jolene park, uh, recently said, if we don't learn to self-soothe we will self-medicate
[00:38:51] Jodi White: same deal. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there are lots right now, lots of talk about autoregulation and self-soothing and, you know, [00:39:00] basically it starts very, very early, you know?
[00:39:06] And so that's where, when we're talking about attachment, you know, we're looking at either secure attachment or insecure attachment, and then under the umbrella of insecure attachment, we're looking at anxious or avoidant or disorganized. Right. And so you just said earlier that you sometimes would go into a much more of an avoidant place and sometimes there would be anxious.
[00:39:29] And so what I've learned through working with, with love addiction and my own, and with others is that we can move around. Yeah, we can be more love avoidant. We can be more love addict, and it just depends on what gets kicked up in that relationship. But the
[00:39:47] Laura McKowen: problem is that they're the extremes and still extremes.
[00:39:51] They're the extremes of, of behavior, uh, and w and the, the same place is not to exit the [00:40:00] spectrum it's or the, the place of balance and peace. And, and what we, what we seek in recovery is a, is a middle place in addition to other things to healthy sense of self and all that. But that is part of the middle.
[00:40:13] Jodi White: Exactly. So the
[00:40:14] Laura McKowen: addiction, so I was thinking the, one of the reasons it would be called an addiction is because it you're powerless in moments to right, right. It control
[00:40:29] Jodi White: it. I mean, I couldn't.
[00:40:32] Laura McKowen: Yeah. W yeah. And I was in a S when I was in a spiral, it felt as desperate and out of control as drinking
[00:40:38] Jodi White: felt to me.
[00:40:39] Yeah. Yes. Yeah, it does. If you can use the same, um, symptoms of addiction to some, you know, symptoms of love addiction, they, it, they look the same physically. Oh yeah. Withdrawal is real draw
[00:40:55] Laura McKowen: nauseous, sick. Um, I would have mania, [00:41:00] depression, anxiety, like, holy holy shit, anxiety. I mean, I would be, it, it mimics like physically, emotionally, spiritually, all the same symptoms.
[00:41:13] Jodi White: Yes, it does. And so that also can go with, you know, why we do call it an addict, an addiction, but, you know, I really, um, love addiction is such an inaccurate term, though, for what it is that we're talking about, because it really. Even though. Yes. So the addiction part does make sense as far as, you know, how we got there and also the symptoms of an addiction.
[00:41:37] Um, but it really has very little to do with love, you know? Right, right. Especially,
[00:41:43] Laura McKowen: I've always hated it. You know how I feel about it when you first, the first time I heard it, I was like, please, that's ridiculous. We
[00:41:50] Jodi White: need love, you know? Right. Yeah. So you've started calling
[00:41:55] Laura McKowen: it or do call it what
[00:41:58] Jodi White: I still call it love [00:42:00] addiction.
[00:42:00] Um, because that's what, it's what worked for me. And now I have considered trying to recreate, you know, come up with a new term. But the thing is, if I use love addiction, then people can Google that term. They can find PS work. I just always like to say, I don't like that term. I don't think it's an accurate term to describe what we're talking about.
[00:42:22] Laura McKowen: This is, uh, something that I misunderstood and I think a lot of people misunderstand. So. What is it? Attachment disorder, love addiction look like and feel like versus just being excited about someone like that, falling in love, passion, these common ideas that we have about quote unquote love because of culture and movies and whatever else.
[00:42:48] Jodi White: Yeah. Well, one thing I do, like I've learned this, uh, is I like to refer to it as, um, functional relationships and functional Lev. [00:43:00] Yes. Because yeah, because we're all about function in recovery from being functional, being your functional adult self. Right. So what I work with clients on is, okay, are you operating from your functional adult self?
[00:43:14] Okay. And so what that means is are you in touch with the fact that you've got value right now that you're valuable, that you're equally valued? You're not going one up one down. Is that okay? Cool. And are you able to communicate your reality, who you are and you know, you've got boundaries, functional boundaries, so yeah, or
[00:43:35] Laura McKowen: in it, you know, that you're not in it when you're trying to manipulate their behavior.
[00:43:44] So you're acting a certain way saying a certain thing, not saying a certain thing, not doing a certain thing. Everything you're doing is around manipulation of their behavior so that you get what you think you need,
[00:43:55] Jodi White: which yeah. And what we think we need is sustain the relationship to stay because that's [00:44:00] what we're trying to stay at.
[00:44:01] If we're trying to stay in the relationship. Oh, if we are tamping down our authenticity, Our authentic self in order to stay connected and stay attached. That's dysfunctional, right? Yes. If we cannot be our, who we are for fear of losing that relationship, then we're not operating in, uh, as a functional adult.
[00:44:22] And so, but it doesn't mean you're not going to feel scared because gosh, we're dealing with this stuff, our whole lives. And so this is going to be scary. I'm going to communicate my truth. And even though I'm scared to death, this person's going to reject me and that's going to mean disconnection. Right.
[00:44:37] But the right person is not going to disconnect. That's the key. Yes. Is
[00:44:43] Laura McKowen: that you you're you're in both situations, you can be afraid and you will be,
[00:44:49] Jodi White: but
[00:44:51] Laura McKowen: one is you're afraid, but you're still yourself. Right.
[00:44:56] Jodi White: And
[00:44:56] Laura McKowen: you accept the consequences.
[00:44:59] Jodi White: [00:45:00] Well, right. I mean, and when I say the right person, won't disconnect, I'm talking about a functional person that wants to be with you.
[00:45:07] Yeah. Because I think I, I want to stay away from right person. Who's the right person. Who's the, you know, a functional person is going to hang in there with you. It doesn't mean they're going to be thrilled about what you say, you know? And there might be conflict even, but to be able to, to know that you can talk, I will tolerate this.
[00:45:25] It will be uncomfortable, but I will tolerate this. And then every time you do it, you just get stronger and stronger. Yeah.
[00:45:31] Laura McKowen: So you can show up as you are. And then the other thing is, and this is the value part feeling like I actually don't want to be with someone who doesn't know the real me.
[00:45:42] Jodi White: Right.
[00:45:44] Laura McKowen: Like, instead of I need to do this at all costs, I need to be whatever this relationship needs to be so that I can stay in it.
[00:45:53] Um, and that's how that was the big tip off for me. Like not operating basis. Their feelings, [00:46:00] their wants their needs and actually being able to identify my own.
[00:46:04] Jodi White: Right. Yeah. And that really takes, you know, working on, um, first of all, what would get, what historically has gotten in the way of being yourself.
[00:46:13] Right. But then also getting to know yourself, right. Developing a relationship with yourself. Yeah. Is all part of this work, so that then you get to know yourself and value yourself so that you don't, uh, do anything to, um, you know, there's a word I want abandoned, abandoned yourself or compromise yourself, uh, anymore.
[00:46:39] Do you
[00:46:39] Laura McKowen: feel like, I know you said to me that you feel like this is like this undiagnosed epidemic.
[00:46:45] Jodi White: Yeah. You know, do you
[00:46:48] Laura McKowen: feel, I feel like a lot of people, especially people in recovery, when they go to get sober, maybe they don't have love addiction, but. I don't know themselves very well. I didn't. [00:47:00] And so their relationships are based on a false
[00:47:02] Jodi White: self.
[00:47:03] Yeah. I think that a lot of us are walking around, not knowing ourselves and undervaluing ourselves and you know, living externally. And so when we're living externally trying to get our needs met out here, all of this right here is starving. So of course we're not going to feel great. And of course, we're going to want to self-medicate with something
[00:47:30] Laura McKowen: I'm just imagining people listening and going, oh my God, I want to like curl into a ball and just die now, but let's talk about the recovery and the hope like you've had, would you say you're recovered
[00:47:45] Jodi White: in recovery?
[00:47:46] Um, I will never say I'm recovered because I believe that recovery. It's also dynamic. I think that it's always as much every day, there's something new in recovery that I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm learning that. I'm learning that. [00:48:00] And um, I also know enough for my history, with love addiction, to never say that I will never be in a dysfunctional relationship again.
[00:48:11] It's going to be how I handle that will be very different, ideally. Uh, but that, yeah, I don't say experience
[00:48:19] Laura McKowen: of the day-to-day of being in a relationship is, is
[00:48:22] Jodi White: different. It's very different. Yes. Very different. And the relationship that I'm in allows me to really look at my own shit a lot more than I could within my pre recovery, especially obviously, but now I get to go, oh, wow.
[00:48:40] I didn't want to talk about that thing because I'm still, I was scared he was going to respond a certain way. And then that would mean that, and then it's just like, you can walk through it and make the whole thing and go, oh, but
[00:48:52] Laura McKowen: you're in a safe container, you know, it's not like there's no sure things and there's no F you know, forever.
[00:48:59] And there's no [00:49:00] all of that because things are always, always changing, like you said, but your, uh, what are the, what would you say are the sort of primary differences now versus
[00:49:08] Jodi White: then, uh, knowing myself, valuing myself, um, knowing the model. I mean PML days model and the symptoms. So now part of that is being able to say, oh, okay, well, my moderation is way off right now.
[00:49:29] So what's going on? And it always goes back to boundaries. Oh, look at that. I said yes to that thing. And that threw my whole schedule off and now I'm burned out and, you know, and so I'm able to walk through all of it all the time. So that's all part of knowing myself. But I think understanding the model is a huge part of it.
[00:49:45] And also just, I wake up every day and I, I, I just feel it's, it's not that I have to wake up everyday and feel awesome because it's not realistic, but I still wake [00:50:00] up six years later and think, I know sometimes I wake up and I think. Gosh. I remember those days when I would wake up and my first thought was, oh my God, he didn't text me back last night.
[00:50:10] Oh my God. I never heard from him yesterday. Oh my God. I have to, what am I going to do? How am I going to handle this? And the anxiety just from the moment, you know? And it just, it's not there anymore. So yeah. It's like living
[00:50:22] Laura McKowen: with like drinking. I still have, and I have the same feelings about the, the relationship stuff too, where it's, you're just more at peace.
[00:50:32] You're not in a constant hypervigilant mode of, uh, it feels like just being underwater a lot and like try and continuing to have to swim, to keep, keep your breath, you know, and always being at risk of like being dunked by any, because it has it because you're at the whim of someone else all the time in your mind that in your mind
[00:50:55] Jodi White: exactly.
[00:50:57] Okay. So what would you say is
[00:50:58] Laura McKowen: the first, like [00:51:00] maybe first two things, couple of things that someone could do if they're hearing this and they're going well, fuck.
[00:51:08] Jodi White: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I recommend he has book PML, Facebook facing love addiction. I cannot talk enough about that because I've read it several times.
[00:51:21] I still use it on my Instagram because I'm always finding little nuggets in there. I know there are lots of great therapists out there, but if you can find a therapist who understands love addiction and you know, or slaw also, um, which is, and there are even love addicts, LAA, love addicts anonymous is on, um, online.
[00:51:44] So just there's, you know, there's free support groups. And then also a therapist who understands this can make a huge difference in recovery. Are you still
[00:51:54] Laura McKowen: working with people? In this
[00:51:56] Jodi White: capacity, I'm not accepting [00:52:00] individual clients anymore, but I am doing, um, well, I have my online understanding of addiction course, which will run again this fall.
[00:52:07] And I'm right now running a mother hunger online group, which I'll run again at some point this year. And I do weekend intensives, uh, here in Austin, there are three-day intensives that are based on the training that I received at the Meadows. So I call them family of origin, intensives, but really so we're diving into family of origin work and, um, addressing those core symptoms of developmental immaturity, which is what, uh, is also known as codependence so that we can become our functional adult cells.
[00:52:41] And you've
[00:52:42] Laura McKowen: seen lots and lots of people recover and have gone to. Great relationships or be happy by themselves or
[00:52:50] Jodi White: whatever. Yeah. I've seen a lot of, I mean, working with he, his model, um, and now Kelly McDaniels work too. I see [00:53:00] really amazing, um, recovery work and also though a big part of this recovery is you're going, we are going to feel anxious again.
[00:53:13] We are going to feel avoidant again and it's all in how we handle that. Right. And so that's the thing about the recovery from this is it's it, there is no perfect. And. Yeah, we're going to it's all in how in them, once we get this information, like in my intensives, my weekend intensives, I do a lot of education as well as experiential work, but because of my own recovery, knowing and understanding this model made such a huge difference.
[00:53:39] So I educate on this model O P P S model so that you understand what we're dealing with and you have this structure to take it, leave here with, right.
[00:53:49] Laura McKowen: So yeah, I mean, that's why I wanted to have this kind of conversation, which is really just informational, like a little bit of storytelling, but mostly informational because for [00:54:00] me too, knowing that this is the thing, this is why this was, this is what it looks like.
[00:54:06] This is how it presents. This is how it feels was changed. Everything for me. You know, personally, I can say there is a different way of being it takes when you said I wouldn't do a weekend, a family of origin intensives, even though I've done so much in that work, I still went inside. It's like recoil, blacks inside.
[00:54:31] Cause it's just it's this is deep as you go, right. This is as deep as you go. You know, I, I would have, no, I didn't do any of this work until I was five, four or five years sober. I wouldn't have been able to. So just to people that might be early in recovery and thinking, I got to fix this, it's like there's
[00:54:52] Jodi White: time.
[00:54:53] Right. And that is something that Peter talks about too is before we do any love addiction work, we need to [00:55:00] dress, um, any other addiction as what she says that is going on. So if there is. Um, but let's deal with, we need to get a stability sobriety there first, before we dig into this, because two reasons, first of all, we want you to, um, be able to feel more confident, stable in this work as we do it, because it is trauma work.
[00:55:25] But then also, and, uh, my colleague up in Dallas, um, told me this, and I really, I thought this was important is that we also want a clients to, or yeah. A client or a group member to experience the anxiety that comes up, the feelings, the discomfort that comes up when we're doing this trauma work and deal with it versus use something to medicate it because that's how that started in the first place.
[00:55:55] So
[00:55:56] Laura McKowen: yeah. Yeah. You have to metabolize
[00:55:59] Jodi White: it. [00:56:00] Yes. Right. We want you to sit, be able to sit with it and so that we can then. Work through it versus if you're, cause if we're still medicating it, then we're not, we go back to that old place of I'll deal with that later I'll deal with the, you know, I'll deal with that childhood trauma stuff later.
[00:56:16] So you start addressing these things. It it's just, your life opens up things open up.
[00:56:25] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Don't you think? And we'll end on this. Don't you think it also plays into all relationships too?
[00:56:31] Jodi White: Oh yes. Thank you for pointing that out and saying that because I did want to, I did want to mention that, that we're not just talking about it.
[00:56:37] This stuff will come up in, uh, friendships in, um, I mean, I did it with bosses, you know, like put bosses on a pedestal. If I can just get them to love me. If I can do all these things, you know, overvaluing them because I needed to feel safe or okay. At work. Um, before I got into, she became a therapist, but yes, this can, this can show up.
[00:56:58] Not just romantic [00:57:00] relationships.
[00:57:01] Laura McKowen: I'm so glad we set that right at the end. Cause it's so it's so important. Yeah. Friendships, family relationships. Yeah. Thank you for coming on and giving us so much in one session, you're probably gonna need a nap. Now
[00:57:18] Jodi White: it's a juicy topic. I mean seriously, because I think so many people can relate to it.
[00:57:23] And because it's really, you know, if you look at this through a trauma lens or a trauma informed lens, either which really says we've all experienced some sort of trauma in childhood. Yeah. Basically. And so whether or not people want to look at it or not, most people can probably relate to this model, you know, um, of PS on some level.
[00:57:46] Laura McKowen: So well, it's also, there's nothing more important and that impacts your life more than how you relate to yourself and to other people. I don't know who it was that said this to me. Maybe it was you, but like, if you want to look, if you want to know a [00:58:00] person's health, look at their relationships and like, if you want really want to know how far let's say functional yeah.
[00:58:09] Are and how much they're operating from their adult functional adult selves, look at their relationships. And is that ever true self included? You know, you can look at all these other outside stuff and all the talk and all the things, but if you like, how are their relationships? Yeah,
[00:58:27] Jodi White: I didn't say that. I wish I had.
[00:58:29] That's really great. You want to know how functional simply look at their
[00:58:32] Laura McKowen: relationships? Yeah. Well, you can say it now. I don't know where I got it. It's true. And that's where I think you can really see progress over time too.
[00:58:40] Jodi White: Yeah.
[00:58:48] Laura McKowen: Alright, thank you so much for being with us today. If you want more TMS T head on over to TMSC pod.com and become a member [00:59:00] members get access to the full uncut versions of these conversations. Previews of upcoming guests invites to join me for members only events and access to our members. Only community where I hang out a lot, we decided from the beginning to make this an independent project, we don't have sponsors and we don't run ads.
[00:59:22] This means that we can make the show all about you. And not what our sponsors or advertisers want, but it also means we're a hundred percent reliant on your support. So my request and my invitation is simple. Support the show by becoming a member, or you can simply make a one-time donation of as little as $5.
[00:59:43] I cannot stress this enough. You can make a huge difference for as little as $5. Please head over to T M S T pod.com. Right now, tell me something true is engineered and mixed by Paul Tufo, Michael L [01:00:00] Sesser. And I dreamed up this show and we're looking forward to joining you online and next time on tell me something true.