John Richards is the morning drive host at KEXP, Seattle. For decades, he’s been the soundtrack to the lives of people starting their day, handpicking every record and building a global fanbase. The thing to understand about John is that he’s on a mission than transcends playing cool tunes. John and KEXP are using their collective platform to carry the message that we’re not alone. That we are loved. That there’s a reason to get up every day. He is charming and funny, even when sharing about his battles with anxiety and depression. I think he’s a powerful role model for how our struggles don’t define us - and that we can put the hard times to good use. John’s site: https://djjohnrichards.com/ The Dr. & the DJ podcast: https://thedrandthedj.com/ Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2KC79Kr9eZ24TVXrwnBL7E Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/
Tell Me Something True with Laura McKowen
John Richards on Mental Health, Music, & Community
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. If you're listening to this, you're not hearing the complete unedited version of this conversation. If you want in on that, you can get it by becoming a TMST Plus member. Just head over to our website at tmstpod.com and click support. All right. Enjoy this.
[00:00:37] Hey, it's Laura. I don't know when you're listening to this, but right now it's time for John in the morning. Oh my God. I clearly could never be a DJ. I had to take that intro about six times and each time made me cringe harder than the last. So we're just going to go with it. John Richards is an actual DJ. He's today's guest, and he's a morning drive host at KEXP in Seattle.
[00:01:08] For actual decades, he's been the soundtrack to the lives of people starting their day. I think we can agree, getting inside someone's head in the morning is pretty close to a sacred space. He hand picks every record he plays and his taste of new and old indie and just generally amazing stuff has earned him fans around the world.
[00:01:31] John has an endless supply of priceless stories that are like candy for someone like me and I'm guessing more than a few of you. Like hosting a show with Arcade Fire with only two microphones, which is a band by the way, that has no less than 10 members at any given point. And those stories, yeah, they're completely not the point, but part of the reason we ended up talking for over two hours.
[00:02:01] But I wanted to sit down with John because KEXP and John himself are somewhat of a unicorn brand. They’re a radio station. Yes. But they're really a whole movement. It's fair to say that KEXP is one of, if not the tastemaker for up and coming indie music. Some of my absolute favorite bands have been discovered on their YouTube channel, which you absolutely have to subscribe to if you aren't already, but they've also got a much bigger message.
[00:02:34] They want you to know that you're not alone, that you are loved and that there's a reason to get up every day, even when it seems like there isn’t. John is a charming and quick and funny guy, even when sharing about his battles with anxiety and depression, which he does really openly. I think he's a powerful role model for how our struggles don't define us and that we can put even the gnarliest hard times to good use.
[00:03:03] He was one of those people that I could have talked to for days where from the first minute we got on, I knew it was going to be awesome. This conversation is exactly why we created Tell Me Something True. There are extraordinary people in the world like John putting themselves out there for others and it matters. It really makes a difference. All right. Enjoy.
[00:03:39] Laura McKowen: I'm so excited to have you. It's great to meet you. I want to help people understand what you do because it's pretty unique. I think there's commercial radio where, you know, the company tells people what to play, super limited, getting attention to sell ads, then there's public radio, which I think of as like NPR, I think most people do. And then there's college and community radio stations, which can be fun. I credit you all with discovering some of my favorite bands ever. So in your view, what role does KEXP play in there?.
[00:04:16] John Richards: Well, again, I think the way you describe it too, is so important. So you do have your commercial stations who don't care about music. They care about the same hundred songs and they sell ads. So you can't take chances. You can't champion music, you can't get behind musicians. And when you go really far the other direction and a lot of community radio is great, but it doesn't necessarily have reach or people who are programming necessarily for the audience and then when you get into public radio, yeah, it often is seen as NPR or music stations, water it down with news or take away, I don't know, emotional connection by slapping news at the top of the hour. And even those stations, most do not allow their DJs to program shows not from a list, but at the same time, the ones that go super freeform, you can run into that problem where you're not again programming for people.
[00:05:13] So it's a very fine line. And at the end of the day, what happens is people don't trust their DJ. And then the other trick is make sure you invest in and hire the right people. Our role is really at the end of the day to connect listeners to musicians, period. And when you see KEXP you just think music. So it is listener funded business and listener supported, but community supported almost a hundred percent. A lot of people have this illusion that there's all these grants and all this money coming in. And if I had my way, it would be zero, but it does help. There is a little bit there, but a majority of our funding, I think 60%, comes straight in from donors and then business support during the pandemic, it disappeared. So that was a big hit, but the business support is back and that's usually about 30%. And then about 10% is your grants and other events and other ways of getting income.
[00:06:08] But the core of it, how we're able to be on the air is, you know, I'm a fundraiser on top of being a DJ. So, that's the other thing that we do, we fundraise all the time and we're not apologetic for it. If you listen, if you use a service of a nonprofit, you should pay your share, whatever you can afford. And it's one in 10, one in 10, do that. Nine other people are rolling off the backs of one person. And the way I always say it's like, if you give $5, if you give a thousand dollars, if you $10,000, we will treat you the same as like a band.
[00:06:41] Laura McKowen: Yeah. That's it. Well, the not paying is a sort of cultural artifact. Many things, as someone who's in the recovery space, it's very similar and for different reasons, but it's like nothing. Everything should always be free, always.
[00:06:56] John Richards: Well, and at some point music became free to people which is during the Napster time, especially in this illusion, musicians are making a great living. Not even 1% are making a good living. And so this idea that art and music should be free to them is insane to me. Like you are literally killing the artists who are making the music for you, and you have a duty to support… that you go to band camp, go to their show, pay for their patrons.
[00:07:29] Anything else they're doing is how you support the spend. And you have to make that decision somewhere inside of you that you're going to support a bank. We learned during the pandemic what happens when there is no music being played and it's not pretty, so everybody has to do their part to get out of this. It's like walking into a museum, like, well, I'll take that one. You know, like a group, this is mine. This is artwork or walk into someone's studio and be like, I have every right to own that, goodbye and take it out. Not how's the artist supposed to pay the rent to be able to make that art? And I don't see why we don't see music the same way. They deserve a living wage and that's never going to happen in our country. It happens in other countries, the support that they receive, but it will never happen in the United States. So we, as a community, have to decide how important musicians and music are to us for years of work.
[00:08:14] Laura McKowen: So, have you been at KXP for 20 years?
[00:08:17] John Richards: I have. I know. It's very weird. No, it's great. I mean, I just never thought I'd be that person. I never thought I'd be, but it just doesn't have a ceiling, so, yeah.
[00:08:29] Laura McKowen: That's great. And you have you done the morning show the whole time?
[00:08:32] John Richards: I have. Yep.
[00:08:35] Laura McKowen: So what is it about the morning show that you like?
[00:08:37] John Richards: Well, when I was in my twenties and they were making it available, I knew no one else would apply. That was my original and I was right. They were like, fuck this man. I'm not getting up this early to go up to do radio. And then I knew like for me, I wasn't a morning person necessarily, but the idea I had subsequent shows and I had, you know, I did an overnight first, but when it became available, I really like starting people's day off because when you're in the morning, you're, you're in the foreground. You're not in the background. So later shows you're kind of in the background. You like morning and then drive still as a thing I'm mourning, but for sure it is because I have people going to work, getting ready or in another time zone or another part of the world who are ready too. Foreground listener. So it worked in the beginning.
[00:09:25] Before the internet was broadcasting the show, believe it or not, I would get on and set everybody's table. And like my goal over the years is to make sure you feel that you're not alone, that you have the tools to face your day. And I think you need music as a tool to face your day every day.
[00:09:46] So it's up to me to make some kind of soundtrack or a mixed tape that you get every morning. And that just really appealed to me. But for me to be able to, to know my job was to talk to people and to play music. I've never not once, true story, no matter how bad I've been in some bad spots over the years while doing the show in my personal life or profession.
[00:10:11] Not one time, have I dreaded or not wanted to go to the show. Not one time. The day I do is the day I retire because I just don't think you should take this space up if you can't be passionate about it every day. So, yeah, it's a lifestyle choice. My family has to, my kids have to adjust.
[00:10:28] They don't know any different, so they didn't adjust. I shouldn't say that. My wife, we married, she's known me a long time, but we married when my first son was three. And so like a while ago and she had to adjust. That was, I was a really attractive candidate there. I get up at four. I have a kid, I have full custody of a three-year-old. I also was living in New York and in Seattle, so I'm not really based anywhere. And by the way, a lot of people know who I am. So the minute you're with me, they're gonna know who you are. So come on in. It's going to be great.
[00:11:05] Laura McKowen: When are you done with work? I mean, you probably also do things at night and weekends.
[00:11:10] John Richards: Yeah. So that's interesting. One of the reasons I'm able to do this and why I've done it this long is because I do other things and some people understand that. And some don't. I can't understand anyone who does one thing. I, I, and it's cool. I'm down and I'm jealous at times. Cause maybe you get to just like be done.
[00:11:29] So that's, I'm not sure, my way might be totally wrong, but I don't know any other way. The reason I've been able to stay on the air and do this job is because I do other things and I've all my life done that. So for me, it doesn't necessarily end. I will work usually till like 1:30 or 2 in the afternoon, and then I'm a runner so I run five or six days a week. Maybe 30 or 40 miles a week. So I have to get that in from that and my mental health. Like, I don't think I could do life without running since I was 10. So I've realized like dealing with my depression running has been a big part of that. And then I host a podcast, The Doctor and The DJ. Shout out to that podcast. I own a bar and I am a music supervisor. And then I just do some talks and other things.
[00:12:18] Laura McKowen: Yeah, well, but it sounds like you have arranged your life, and seemingly work around who you are and you're there. For me also now, I created my world around a lot around recovery and people in recovery and mental health stuff, so all the things I do are around that. So it does, yes, I'm working, but sometimes I can't tell if I'm working or not.
[00:12:43] John Richards: Right. Yeah. And I, you know, my entire family, my entire family are alcoholics on my father's side. My brother and I are the only ones who made it through. My sister struggles quite a bit. It's pretty dire actually. And my father died very young and his father, his father, all alcoholics. So there's a lot of that in my world and it's hard. It's hard. Yeah.
[00:13:13] Laura McKowen: The mental health world, which you talk about a lot and we'll get into, and addiction. They're close they're siblings often.
[00:13:23] John Richards: Yep. Right. Makes sense. Yeah.
[00:13:26] Laura McKowen: So yeah. Well, I'm sorry for your dad. And, and then, yeah, it spreads like wildfire in families.
[00:13:34] John Richards: It did. And I didn't see it coming in my family or my brothers and stuff like that, that I think, cause I made it and I'm the middle child and it scared me so much to what alcohol did to my dad and then how it affected us. Like that was such a bad situation. And luckily my mom and dad divorced when I was 10, but, it was brutal to watch him pass and to see the dependence even in death was just so shocking. You know, but I know I have it in me. Like for instance, I don't gamble. Okay. Like I don't, and I, I want to gamble. I really desperately do. I like played poker back in the day with my friends, you know, I was really into it. And then we do like betting on sports. I know a lot of sports. I do pretty well there.
[00:14:32] I had these thoughts like, oh, I'm going to get into this. And then like, died penniless because he just gambled it all away in his alcoholism because he's an addict. He couldn't stop. And I thought, oh my God, if I start a marriage, I'd be like, you're getting into drugs. Like, like when everyone's smoking pot, I was like, yeah, I think I might do that every day for the rest of my life if I really get into this. So I think I'm going to not. And so I think for me, and running is like the edge.
[00:14:58] Laura McKowen: Some people seem to have that instinct where they see it when their parents or someone in their family or whatever. And they're just scared enough by it. It lands with them. Like I saw it, but I didn't really make the connection. There was some “that's not me”. That's this, it's not connected to me. I don't know. It's weird because I saw it all over my family and it just never felt, I never felt any fear around it.
[00:15:29] John Richards: Yeah. They're in my family. It's the same thing. The, some sought some didn't and it's no fault of their own. It's just the way people and how you're built and your DNA or whatever else. It's like just how you because I have no idea. I don't have any, just my, my sister and I are just different. We just, we just were on different and it's it bums me out that she didn't have this particular, I guess, superpower really to get through it because it's, you know, when I look at my kids and I already worry, like it's in my family,
[00:15:58] Laura McKowen: I want to go towards some of the projects that you have done at KEXP and Music Heals, especially. I read this little bit about it. Okay. Music Heals Mental Health is a day of programming dedicated to calling attention to the public health crisis that is depression and anxiety and exploring how music can help us know we're not alone. This is you. Music has incredible power. I hear from listeners every day about a song or a lyric that helped them heal, process grief, or just find the strength to go on.
[00:16:32] We hope that Music Heals Mental Health can help listeners who live with mental illness know that there is a whole community out here that cares about them. You're not alone.
Okay. So. Just tell me about Music Heals. Like how, how did it come to be and, and how does it fit within your life now?
[00:16:52] John Richards: Um, my mom died 17 years ago and I was pretty new to deejaying and I got on the air and started talking about that. I talked about how my father died. He died about four years, three years before that. So I started to go through this on the air. And so when I started talking about my mom in particular, she was, she had lung cancer and was over in Spokane, which is about 300 miles east of here where I grew up and I had to go back. So I had to talk about it. So it forced me into the, I always think of the Howard Stern movie when he was forced into, which I loved, very different, but I love when he had to be himself. He, he like, he like screws up and he has to just talk as a human. It really connected to me because I had that same but mine just happened to be on public radio. So mine was around grief, and so when I did realize that I was talking about it.
[00:17:40] Laura McKowen: I'm sorry, because you had to get through it?
[00:17:42] John Richards: I literally, logistically I had to go like, Hey, I have to go out of town. I'm not going to be on the air. Yeah. So it didn't really start as like, I'm going to talk about this. I just didn't know what else to do. So I was going to be just very honest, like I'd been up to that point, pretty honest, but just didn't get into my life too much. And so I thought people wouldn't care. And so when I started talking about grief, as you can imagine, everyone started connecting and people battling cancer and people who have lost their parents or whatever and so unbelievable and from my colleagues, but, but even more so from the listeners. So I just went through that and then I got on the air after and I talked about it and then this anniversary hit and I said, I'm going to play some of my mom. And I programmed her funeral and music. My mom loved music, especially near the end of her life.
[00:18:24] She listed my show when we were able to sit around during that time and plan the music for a funeral and play songs and make her feel better. I remember I got in an argument with a hospice nurse because she said I was playing the wrong music and I was like, lady wrong. I love hospice. They were the greatest people.
[00:18:40] This particular woman was not a match though. She's like, I need someone else here. She's like, yeah. She was like, this is we're only going to play new age, like healing music. Yeah. I don't my mom, no, my mom wants your echo and the Bunnymen and cigarettes. I think it's going to be different. So, we played Jay Hawks and like all this great stuff. And so music heals. It really, it was just called the mom's show still is. And so that started happening. And then we started talking about doing a show on cancer, and we talked to people in our community and we started using the music heals around the cancer show and so we started talking about cancer, not in regards. I mean, it's how my parents died. And a lot of people. But just in our community, Seattle is such a center of cancer care. It's unbel, it's so much, there's so much here. Um, cancer research and cancer places. People come here all the time, dealing with cancer.
[00:19:28] So we work with an organization. So that grew. Then when we talked more about that, then we got into addiction and said, well, that is a major. Kevin Cole, who's a DJ at the station and has been there about as long as I have, has been sober for years now and he wants to talk about that as what he goes through and what a lot of musicians go through in our communities. And then again, the response was huge. And then the last one was like the one that we don't talk about, and that was depression. And that was my thing. It just, you didn't, you know, what I explained was that I had, it was recent. It actually was in the last few years. So I talked about everything on the air and I never once talked about being depressed or having anxiety.
[00:20:06] And I have a lot of anxiety and depression in my life. So in my mind, I wasn't, I kind of was lying, you know, and I, it made me a good DJ because. It doesn't mean I just play. The funny thing is when you do admit you're dealing with the president, this happens to me. Oh my God, I admit this, but I will play like an Elliot Smith song or Nick Drake or something. I swear to God, man. People mean well, but it's John, John, are you okay? Is everything all right? I don't have a producer or people around. You're like, no, this is the last day, you know? And like, I say, usually like, if I'm depressed like this, I don't listen to music.
[00:20:46] Laura McKowen: I'm so glad you said that, because I wanted to ask about that specifically the first year or so, maybe two that I was, I was getting sober, I didn't listen to any music. I couldn't. It was, I could not feel that much as someone who experiences a lot of depression, like how do you navigate that? Because you're someone who loves music.
[00:21:05] John Richards: The show helps a lot. And, and it's ironic that I say I don't listen to music, but I'm in on the probably 500 times, like at least I'm sure it's more and sometimes you don't know, you don't even know. You're like, well, I'm just tired. And you're like, oh my God, I feel really bad. Um, world events going on around you or your own personal stuff, or just, you know, or nothing. That's the thing about depression is like, Hey, guess what we're going to do today.
[00:21:27] We're going to think nothing's worth living for. Okay, great. So go do a radio show, but luckily mine's music and so I will play music there, but then when I'm done and I'm feeling bad, I'm not ready for music when I'm feeling that bad. So I need silence and I will take it. But when I'm sort of in that middle ground where I know I'm doing, and this has been more recent, I learned you have to say to yourself, I'm depressed.
[00:21:53] I'm sad. It's okay. And it seems so basic. And no, when we can't do it as a society, because nobody gives us permission. This is why I didn't talk about it on the air too. There's this weakness in you, and being a man, especially your race. Dude, you don't ever talk about that. You don't go to therapy. You don't talk about depression, you’re weak.
[00:22:12] And so I thought people wouldn't want to listen to my show anymore. So I, I would, I wouldn't talk about it. And so now I admit it, I will even admit on the air. Like I am not feeling great today. So if I know I'm feeling bad and I know I feel depressed, I actually can go to music. And when I go it's gotta be palate cleansing, seminal albums from my past, nothing new. And I, and I love new music. I live for new music. I make a living on music, but I will go like Joshua Tree, but I've got to listen to that 14 times and get a little obsessive about it, you know, or just, and I'll stick with one thing.
[00:22:48] Like I listen to the INXS Kick album. Three straight weeks is all I listened to on my downtime. Like it just made me feel better every time because it brought me back. Like I didn't have to think about it. I know all the words. It's just like, it's happy for the most part. And so of course I picked the band where the guy killed himself, but I, I still, you know, but there's something in there and so that's what I'll do when I'm, again, more, this is more often now when I'm feeling down.
[00:23:15] It isn't me saying, okay. I need to feel better. I'm going to play music. I need a companion while I feel bad. There's a difference because if you're looking for it just to heal you or to make you feel. Like when we say music heals, I mean it, but it's, it's a long-term care. It's not a band-aid, it's like a practice, you know. My wife's a natural, you know, it's not just giving you a pill, you've got to sleep, you've got to exercise.
[00:23:39] You gotta eat. Right. You gotta do all the things. And then when you do need to be, yeah, you'll get one. But for me, music's the same thing. It's going to take time and it's going to take like, you just digging into it when you're feeling bad, but yeah. First have to admit it.
[00:24:03] Mikel Ellcessor: Hi, I'm Mikel. I'm the executive producer of Tell Me Something True and I co-created the show with Laura. We built TMST and our online community with the hope of creating a sane spot on the internet. We're really passionate about the ad-free nature of this work. Our belief is that this project works best if we're not hustling to keep advertisers happy, and we keep our attention on you, the TMST community, and this is where you can play a major role. TMST Plus is the membership group that helps to keep this podcast going. Whether it's through a monthly membership or a one-time contribution, TMST Plus members are vital to this experiment. As a TMST Plus member, you get to join Laura for member only events, send in questions for the guests, hear the complete unedited interviews and connect with other TMST community members. You know, sometimes we feel like we can't make a difference in the world. With a TMST Plus membership, you can be keeping this space alive and thriving for a one-time gift or for as little as 10 bucks a month. You can find the link in the show description and then please head over to tmstpod.com right now to support the show. And thanks.
[00:25:32] Laura McKowen: I want to talk about depression a little bit, if that's all right. Um, what is it like for you? Like when did you sort of figure out that that was a thing going on for you? And then when did you, when did you start to talk about it?
[00:25:46] John Richards: I didn't know I had depression. That wasn't a thing. Like I didn't, I was ADD. I am ADD. And you, if you listen to me, you can hear that. Um, if you watch me here, I've got like, um, it's a super power. You just have to hone on it. I tried to tell my oldest son, he also has ADD, and I, I stopped going to school my freshman year of high school. So I was a pretty popular kid in fifth, six, seven, and then it just, I thought about this later, like it just started to go downhill. I couldn't figure out why. I, I, you know, I did sports. I was social and then I didn't know this, but I was depressed. I was so depressed. I think for a number of reasons. I couldn't handle how people treated each other, especially at that age.
[00:26:38] Like I couldn't witness it anymore because I, and I had my instances in my, I had one in particular that was really bad, but over there that isn't the reason I wasn't going, I couldn't stand it. I couldn't even be around it. And I, and I, and then I had this, I remember thinking like none of this matters. I don't really, this is I don't, none of this matters. I don't care about the subject so why would I go? We have a saying in my house about mental health, as physical health and physical health has mental health. So it manifested in sickness. I felt sick all the time. And to this day, I will tell you I could, I had symptoms. I felt sick, yeah, my mom just couldn't do it.
[00:27:11] She's a single mom raising three kids. And then here I am, can't go to school cause I'm sick. So I missed so much school. I dropped my freshman year, and that is a bad place to be. You've just started high school, like 15 formative years. And now you're the freak and everyone just assumes, like, dude is a drug addict or he's, I wasn't doing anything like that.
[00:27:31] So anyway, I went through that and what happened? I'll never forget what happened. I was suicidal. I didn't even really understand what that meant. I just knew I didn’t want to get out of bed anymore. I didn't want to live anymore. I just knew that was it. I didn't sit and say, this is how I'm going to kill myself. I just didn't want to do it anymore. And so it became for active guy was social. It just, I can't imagine. I can't talk to my mom now about it. I wish I could. That is one thing we didn't talk a lot about because I didn't understand it. Even when she died, it took me just till recently to figure this out.
[00:28:09] One of them, you know, there's a way out. And even to this day, it's the same formula for me. Cause I stopped exercising. I wasn't social, my friends disappeared except my best friend. And then my mom, that was it. My whole social world was my buddy, John and my mom. That's it. And for months, but then an old friend of mine I knew since I was young, for some reason she was popular. I have no idea what she was doing, hanging out. She saw the goodness of me. Like she was a good person, and we knew each other. We were kids. She lived next to my cousin and we just, we just hung out. We could just reach out. I think she knew I was going through a hard time and we talked, my friend, John stuck with me.
[00:28:52] I started thinking about playing sports again, how much I missed. And then I saw really bad music that wasn't helping. And my brother, my big brother, and he was just out of town. It's not that he didn't care. He just had his own stuff going on. He lived in Seattle or Phoenix, same as Seattle, but he sent me a tape and I was sitting on the floor.
[00:29:08] I remember putting in, I had a dual cassette player and I was sitting on my red carpet and I remembered my shirt was white. I remember like it was yesterday and I put it on, it was this band called Pixies. I'd never heard of that. Put it in the player. Yeah. Put it on. I hit play. I was like, well, one of my brothers sent me his teeth as white as snow. And what a gasser was to see him Walker every day into a shady place was a lift. She said, every, it was, everything changed my entire life, I'm not kidding. Like everything. I get a chill now, even telling you like everything changed. Yeah. If it was a movie they ever do a movie, that'd be the scene where like the lights come on or stars or color, or they focus in on my face. And I'm just like, because what happened was I had a reason to get up.
[00:30:50] Now I discovered great music. I discovered weird music and new music and things. I'd never heard. What else is out there? Oh my God. This could be. Oh, my, if this is one thing, what are the other things, you know? And he started sending me more tapes and then I started seeing this person and she seemed like I kind of got why I might be a good person. And then I started playing sports again and lettered in sports and like got back to school and then worked my way back. And I had reasons to get up every day. I was a walking breakfast club. I was like every genre. I was a sports guy, the stoner, the music guy. You know, and I was smart. It turns out I was like on the honor roll when I wanted to be.
[00:31:29] So I focused in like, then I chilled out later, but like that sophomore year, and then I actually graduated with my class. I worked my ass off. I went to 70 classes every summer, every summer I went to summer school, but I didn't apologize to anyone for it. They're like, oh, you're here for drivers. And I'm like, oh no, I'm here for English. I'm meeting some new people. And, uh, and so I met all these nice people and there's a certain comfort. Yeah. Uh, there's like Nirvana. So he has a comfort and being sad, but there's a comfort in rock bottom. I, you know how I want to teach my kids, like you need to not give a shit. Like when you go to school, like what anyone thinks of you, if you ended up where I did, you go to school and you're like, I really don't care what any of you think of me? I've already been on robot. I'm the weirdo. Who's in the class before us and after us, two of my best friends to this day were in the class. Because I was behind that. I met, so I have more friends from that class. See, good things happen. My girlfriend was in there.
[00:32:25] Laura McKowen: The rock bottom thing is real. I mean, you can't beat the caring out of teenagers, out of humans, teenagers of what other people think, but rock bottom situations will do that. It just snaps. Because everything after that, it's like compared to what?
[00:32:43] John Richards: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like what, you know, worst case scenario, there's always worse, but you, you got a pretty good idea what a worst case scenario can be. So for me, it was. That sort of set me on the road and then it was only years later that I went, oh my God, that was depression. Because then I actually started dealing with it. And anxiety was a big driver in it. Just being scared of everything. I mean, a quick side note, a good thing about anxiety is one of my anxiety things was pandemics. Like I had a real fear of pandemics. So for me, when this. Yeah. Y'all don't understand. And my wife's like, we got to get the she's like, we gotta get these in 95 messes. I'm like, what are you talking about there in the garage? I got like three boxes. What else do you need gloves? She's like, yeah. I think when he goes, like, yeah, I got those too. Do you not know? I've been storing low key prepper for 20 years, honey.
[00:33:28] Yeah. Loki. Preppers. Exactly. Right. Like just enough water and just enough mat, like in case, but it went a different direction. Like I thought I'd be like, Fighting off the hordes coming from my stuff. It was more like, oh no, we're actually just in liberal city. We're okay. And everyone else is crazy. Okay. Got it. All right. But that like that, but if an anxiety moment hits for something else, that's a whole different ball of wax.
[00:33:52] Laura McKowen: So did you ever tell the Pixies about that moment?
[00:33:55] John Richards: So then I had a, so I'm at home. I'm interviewing the Pixies the next day and I suddenly feel very sick to my stomach, but for real, I'd already had this cold and I started throwing up violently. It is the most violent I've ever thrown up in my entire life. I was so sick. I couldn't get out of bed and couldn't make the Pixies on my show and someone had to do it for me. Yeah. I have a, I have a poster in my office, uh, that is right there. It says where's my mind. And on it, it says, where is it? Uh, black Francis staring right at it. Yeah. So the good news is that would have been the pinnacle and I would've had to retire. So in my mind, I missed, maybe you are saved from peaking. Yeah. People said you must be so depressed. I was like, you know, I'm just happy. I'm hell. And one day maybe they will, there'll be up.
[00:34:45] I did get to see, I did get to meet him. He, it was funny. He came to the station, we had this band hot, hot heat at the time and they were a big deal. I guess there's a huge bus. It took up the entire parking lot. It's just like just massive black. They're just coming. And then we had a Frank Black session afterwards. So, you know, I was conveniently hanging around just to see, and I saw a cab pull up. He gets out, he's got his little amp. It comes to Walton and he's like, yeah, I'm Frank Black or whatever. He said, Charles Peters whatevers. And I was at the door like a work in the front door now waiting for him.
[00:35:17] I'm like, I am John and I am a DJ here. And I just want to thank you for your music and you saved my life. And he said, thank you so much. And that was good enough for me. That was good enough.
[00:35:28] Laura McKowen: It's more just to have that moment to say he's probably heard it a million times, but you get to say it right. Fascinating. Okay. So, so depression, that's an amazing story. And, and now, you know, at some point you just, you went to therapy, I assume you start talking about it. It seems to be a theme in your online presence that you just stated as like a matter of fact, like this is where I am, right.
[00:35:53] John Richards: I think if you see me and I have a great marriage and these two great kids in a cool job and owning a bar, which everyone thinks is the greatest thing ever, you should own went through a pandemic, I'll tell you differently. And you see if you see someone and they are depressed. What I'm trying to say is these are not cures for depression. In fact, they amplify them like my public job amplifies my depression. I know that there's people who look at it, Chris Cornell or Kurt Cobain or others in my city, you have taken their lives and they were like that. Everything is like, yeah, but first off, the problem is they thought that was a cure. They thought, as it was going, they probably think, well, if I could just be popping up here, but when they're in it, they're like, oh my gosh. And then when you say to yourself, I have this much and I still, I feel worse than how then you don't see any solution to this problem.
[00:36:46] You're, you're going to, there's a good chance you're going to give up because you're like, life doesn't get any better than making music and like making enough money to not worry about money, into like, you know, do whatever, do what you want to do. And so, but if you haven't dealt with your depression, then ain't gonna matter.
[00:36:59] I think if I talk about and normalize it, that's my job. And it's because I'm getting through it and because people have been kind to me, because of the community supporting me and then my own kind of mission. I feel it's really important that I just talk about it matter of faculty, and normalize it. So when you feel that way, maybe you won't give up and maybe you'll start to develop the tools.
[00:37:18] They don't have to be my tools, but you'll develop some tools along the way. And then we save some lives of some amazing people who may, may help the world. And by help the world I mean, they might just love somebody. They might just raise their kid right. They might help a stranger. They might, they might just, I don't know.
[00:37:36] Maybe they'll write an amazing book. Maybe they'll make an amazing song, you know, like that they'll put something good in the world and I don't know about you, but we need as many good people as possible out there putting good in the world. And so for me, I just think if we can, if people around my world, they must have something in them that makes.
[00:37:50] I think because I'm not a commercial DJ, I'm not programming the same stuff. I'm doing something different. So if you've come around my world, somehow, I feel like I got a shot here to make you feel. Maybe that you can do it. I can't help you. I technically can't physically help you through this, but I can give you the tools that are available.
[00:38:11] Music heals, you are loved. You are important. You are not alone. Someone loves. No question. And you got to love yourself. Nothing's going to happen until you love yourself. Music is detail and you're important. So many people don't think they're important. They think they need to be doing something to make them important.
[00:38:28] You're important to someone. There's no question you're important to someone. And if you're not, you might be at some point, get a dog. You'll be super important to that dog that is going to love you. That's right. And don't give up on that and you give up, you say, well, I'm not good enough. I'm not. Uh, I'm not worth loving and that's the work you have to do now.
[00:38:45] Then you have to do that work now, because if you don't do that work, just setting yourself up to be loved. You have to love yourself first. So telling someone you are loved is a good way to do that. You are loved. I mean, you're, you're God, we're on the, we walk the earth. A lot of us at the same time as David. Let's just start there.
[00:39:09] Laura McKowen: We walked the earth currently with Dolly Parton, like lives, worth living pretty much as close to it, living saints. Right. As we're going to get.
[00:39:14] John Richards: That's exactly right. Like what are the odds? This is amazing. Like Paul McCartney's alive. Still knock on wood. He's, you know, we're chugging along like it's there's worst times.
[00:39:26] Laura McKowen: I've often felt like joy is this weird sister to grief. When I have been in my most grief, I also have access to joy because your heart is cracked open. Do you feel like depression living with, you know, depression, anxiety has allowed you more gratitude?
[00:39:44] John Richards: Yes. You know what it's allowed? It's allowed more gratitude for quiet moments.
[00:39:50] When I feel good yesterday, was it yesterday day, before the day before it was so you can't tell how beautiful it's out right now, but it was so gross outside. And I had just, I was at home and my kids were, were, my kid was right next to me here playing some video game and my other one was working on his homework and my wife was doing something.
[00:40:10] It is the greatest feeling ever, ever, like there is nothing you could take advantage of because you tell me because I can, could appreciate peace in a quiet moment and like just feeling loved and in a loving area, like before I would have even noticed, and this is maybe. A few years ago I wouldn't be able to stop by, by knowing I feel good.
[00:40:34] I feel content. I don't have to have this happiness and joy. And just like that is not life. Try to, we try to reach that this is why we're depressed. Life is hard, and then you have these nice moments of calm. And then these really great moments of a moment of just amazing, like whatever happened. Like you fell in love, you had a child, you like, I don't know, your soccer team won. Like that's for me, that'd be a big one. And like, yeah, like singing. We are the champions of the Sounders when the cup with my wife and the fact that that's like top 10. So I like soccer. So, or seeing my kid go out and score his first goal, you know, like those are those moments and depression allows me to see that and be like, this is easily, one of the greatest, most of my life. And I'm going to hold on to this right now. And then on these quiet moments, these moments I'm gonna appreciate. And that's it like being able to sit and read or have peace or listen to a song because you, cause I get to, or I want to, oh my gosh. Like that, that is where I appreciate it because of depression because, and I think other people just go through life and they don't stop. They don't understand. This is so great. Like these moments you have are so amazing. Why do you think you like live shows?
[00:41:48] Laura McKowen: Your wife seems like an amazing woman, and I love that you two are doing a podcast together. So how did that come to be? And what's it been like?
[00:41:56] John Richards: Well, I married up, I just want to make that very clear right now. She's amazing. You have to send her this episode. So she's joined me. So she is in the music world. She's been there for years and she's a trained piano player as well. Uh, she majored in music. Very smart and yeah, it's, I'm very lucky to be able to live in a home. And here I saw T being played upstairs or she learned the succession theme on piano. She plays piano. Um, she went back to school. She went back to be a doctor. She should, she's a healer. So she went back when she was pregnant with Henry. And suddenly was in community college, doing physics and chemistry classes. And I was just like, what is even happening and went back and then went to school.
[00:42:45] And, and during that time, um, she ran into some medical issues and her father died. So it took a toll. It, so it took her a little longer, but as she says, better than I do, she's like, there's no time for this. There's no rules. This is when you have to get done. This is life. This is how you're, this is what I'm going to get done. And so she became a doctor and it was during the pandemic. And so, and then she had to build a practice here out of our home. So we were doing my show. And her practice out of the same office upstairs. And I was not in here. And so, we were having bands on the lawn. I should mention that live music died.
[00:43:21] So we called them lawn in the morning because God, I know the listener came up with it. I'm not that smart or that dumb. And so we started having artists every Friday in our front yard, because she used to do music production as well, produce events and stuff. So we just. Throw lines out the window and hook up microphones and amps and stuff.
[00:43:39] We didn't really tell the neighbors, they just sort of figured it out. And we had bands out there. So we were doing that. And then she would join me over the years on my grief show, because she's had some, some more grief than anyone. I actually know two big stories. Yeah. Our sister was murdered. Her brother died in an avalanche.Um, and then some very close friends died as well and her father just passed. So she also being a doctor and being the kind of doctor she is, knows yelling. She talks on the air to our listeners about taking time for grief like that. You need to schedule it, that you should treat it like any other thing you're dealing with and not put it somewhere.
[00:44:17] You know, so having her on was amazing. So we do these death and music events around town where we'd have musicians play and tons of thousand people show up to our last event for the pandemic and musicians play songs. And they talk about how they relate to death and grieving. And so it was a super powerful night and I learned.
[00:44:34] We're pretty good on the mic together and in life together. And then I thought, you know, I went back, I used to do a show on the commercial station on Sundays. Because of that, I could do the local show and I used to listen to the love line when it was, I thought it was pretty good. It got it. Got not good. So I just want to make that clear, but back in the day, when it first started, that show was great and you just didn't hear anything like it.
[00:44:57] And I thought, you know, I'm Carlos kind of the DJ guy, then you have the Dr. Drew is very different from us. I'm not saying that, but I used to hear it because I used to finish my show and have to. Like set it up perfectly. It was commercial radio had to end at this moment, so I'd be talking slow or fast or get off the air and then hit the button and listen. So anyway, that was in the back of my head. So I thought, well, what if we did like a updated version of this, where I'm the guy kind of asking the dumb questions? So I'm good at that. And then leading this, I'm getting this information with this amazing person who needs an outlet. I think to get it out with her life experience and our medical training, my God.
[00:45:33] We're like what we're, everyone's doing this during a pandemic, let's start a podcast is what you gotta do. Um, and it was right as we were doing those long sessions and stuff. So we realized that we really liked it. We really liked being able to have a longer conversation than we could have on the radio, as you know, like you can continue, you can have these long conversations and people can sit with each other too.
[00:45:56] Laura McKowen: Like how cool. Yeah. To have that dynamic.
[00:45:58] John Richards: Yeah. She just sits in that chair over here. We'd like, plan it out. We find guests, we love that are musicians or doctors or writers or some great people on
[00:46:06] Laura McKowen:. Yeah.
[00:46:07] John Richards: And we're, we're, we're pretty excited about, um, who were lining up this year too. And, and, and I think we're even more comfortable, even more honest, I think. And, and it's, yeah, it's getting some traction, which is really nice that people are trusting us enough to like let us in the room. But, and then the doctor and the DJ just, I dunno, where that popped into my head is I hit this. How was that not taken? I was so excited.
[00:46:29] Laura McKowen: That's great. Well, I, I love them, I mean, I, this is my third podcast. The first one I did was all about addiction and then they did another one that was sort of like self personal development, irreverent sort of thing. And this, this one feels like the one I was building up to, you know, and I'm interested to keep listening to your show. I think you have very good chemistry, which you clearly do, you're married, but you know, having that on-air thing, so what's going to happen for you next year. What's up for 2022?
[00:47:00] John Richards: I have high hopes for there being more public things. So a lot of what I do is in the public. I'm not dying to get in front. I'd be around a lot of people. I've enjoyed that part, um, to get a break, but for me, 2022 is around my world because it's a lot that is closed down. We have a gathering space at KEXP where people are always there and people see bands at KEXP and all this stuff. So for me, it's people being able to be around each other more in 2022, I'm launching another business, djjohnrichards.com. You can go there and sign up for my newsletter because we're going to be launching another record club. Um, and I haven't announced that yet, but we did one through the bar and it worked really well. It was really great. I built all this community by picking records and like geeking out about records. And so I kind of had this plan to create a record club where people sign up and you're clearly getting a record every month, depending on supply chain issues, or if a Dell wants to, you know, throw the system off, but Hey, what are you gonna do?
[00:48:04] I didn't know what Dell listeners wanted records, but it turns out it's a thing don't judge don't get any benefit from that, I guess. Right? So I'm not, I'm not angry. It's just, you know, it's, it's capitalism at its best. So our worst. So I want to do that and I want to use it to get vinyl made for smaller bands that I think people are gonna like, so put some of that money towards producing vinyl records, then they are able to produce the records and then these, some of them be exclusive to this club and then they're getting these records from a band they may not have bought.
[00:48:39] And so they may be a fan for life because it's not how many fans you have. It's how many dedicated bands you have, that's it? That is the model. If you don't have that model, you're not going to succeed anymore. So if I can create a world where I can have this business running and it sustains itself and artists get records put out in the world and they get more fans and we put more vinyl in the world to me, that's win-win so I've, I think it's going to launch in March.
[00:49:05] I have to put some sticky notes on a board and figure it out. But I think with all the vinyl on my life, I think, I think this. It has some legs. So I want to do that in the new year and see, and really build that, love that. And I will be in on that. Yeah. DJ John richards.com. Cause I'm going to, I got a newsletter going again, man. Old becomes new. It's like you said about the, you know, coming around full circle. I used to have one and then social media, like, oh, you don't need emails anymore. This is so old. It's so dumb and old and nobody does this anymore. And I meant, you mentioned yours. It's such a great way to stay connected and not rely on social media necessarily.
[00:49:42] And I like writing, I like sitting and writing and I can't do that really with social media, but when I can sit and talk directly, you know, it's like, it's like, I'm in a long conversation with you. You can't, I can't do that on the radio. So for me, that outlet, I'm looking forward to this year to get writing out and then also this year I just, I really, my wife's practice is taking off and I want to support her as she has supported me over the years. So any, you know, that's a big part of how I want this year to go is to be able to like watch her thrive. Yeah. And make the space and be supportive as she's been to me, like, as I built my thing. So that's pretty exciting to watch.
[00:50:17] Laura McKowen: Oh, this has been amazing. You are wonderful to talk to, such a treat. And I thank you for being who you are.
[00:50:23] John Richards: Thank you. Yeah, that's great talking to you. Yeah, this is it. It's nice being on the other side of this.
[00:50:38] Laura McKowen: Alright, thank you so much for being with us today. If you want more TMST head on over to tmstpod.com and become a member. Members get access to the full uncut versions of these conversations, previews of upcoming guests, invites to join me for members only events, and access to our members only community where I hang out a lot, especially now that I'm not on social media. We decided from the beginning to make this an independent project, we don't have sponsors and we don't run ads. This means that we can make the show all about you and not what our sponsors or advertisers want, but it also means we're a hundred percent reliant on your support. So my request and my invitation is simple. Support the show by becoming a member, or you can simply make a one-time donation of as little as $5.
[00:55:49] I cannot stress this enough. You can make a huge difference for as little as $5. Please head over to tmstpod.com right now Tell Me Something True is engineered and mixed by Paul Chuffo, Mikel Ellcessor and I dreamed up this show and we're looking forward to joining you online and next time on Tell Me Something True.