What if life wasn’t an endless series of zero-sum, high stakes experiences? Leonard Perlmutter is asking these and many other questions, and he's doing it in a lovely, humble way. He’s a meditation teacher, an author, and has a unique ability to make complicated things clear. He founded the American Meditation Institute in Albany, New York in 1996, and in the years since they've touched tens of thousands of lives through their classes and meditation, yoga and integrated health. Don’t be fooled by his easy-going, humble manner - Leonard drops solid gold every few minutes. This is an episode that you’ll go back to several times to wring out all of the goodness. Why Meditate?: https://americanmeditation.org/why-meditate/ The American Meditation Institute: https://americanmeditation.org/ AMI’s Foundation Meditation Course: https://americanmeditation.org/ami-meditation-course/ Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3lOKGXLAL42y5rnEI606zF Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/
Tell Me Something True with Laura McKowen
Leonard Perlmutter on a Life of Experimentation
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. If you're listening to this, you're not hearing the complete unedited version of this conversation. If you want in on that, you can get it by becoming a TMST Plus member. Just head over to our website at tmstpod.com and click support. All right. Enjoy this.
[00:00:33] Hey there it's Laura. And today I'm going to introduce you to someone who has a really extraordinary view on how to approach life. He's asking the questions that face every single one of us, and he's doing it in a lovely, humble way. Leonard Perlmutter is a meditation teacher, an author, and an inspiration as you'll hear, he's inviting us to ask what if life is just a long unfolding experiment about all this high stakes zero-sum game thing that we do just an experience and that there's always more freedom waiting for us. In 1996, Leonard found the American meditation Institute in Albany, New York. And in the years, since they've touched tens of thousands of lives through their classes and meditation, yoga, and integrated health. Leonard's easygoing, demeanor, floats on top of an incredible AMI meditation courses have been accredited by several medical associations for continuing medical education credits. And the Institute has grown as a center of excellence. For example, in 2010, the mind body medicine, pioneer Dr. Bernie Siegel joined the faculty. Leonard strikes me as someone who is truly living as Dharma in a humble, committed, and yet lighthearted way throughout this conversation, he would lay out these seemingly two simple nuggets to be picked up, turned around and continue.
[00:02:21] He speaks in a way that makes the complicated things clear. And I think you're going to enjoy spending time with him. I did. All right. Enjoy.
[00:02:41] I'm very excited to talk to you.
[00:02:44] Leonard Perlmutter: Yeah. Oh, thank you.
[00:02:46] Laura McKowen: Thanks. Yeah, your work is incredibly important to people like me. I became a yoga teacher actually about 10 years before I quit. And it was my first, it was my intro into pranayama, and yoga and yoga were my entree into really meeting myself for the first time.
[00:03:09] It seems like I want to start really wide and then work our way in. Can you tell me how it is you came to do what you do and then how you describe what you do?
[00:03:21] Leonard Perlmutter: Well, um, one of my earliest memories was that, uh, there were two principles that have guided me in my life. First is philosophy. I've always had a philosophical perspective on just about everything.
[00:03:44] Not really sure where that came from, but it's comfortable and it's helpful for me. And the other principle that has guided me is practicality. I'm a practical guy. And so I'm attracted to a different knowledge, but unless that knowledge, that wisdom has a practical application. I don't give it much attention, much energy.
[00:04:12] So when I was a little, little kid grade school and then going into high school, I was in the Scouts and, uh, it was a great way to learn practical tools for living. And I enjoyed that very much. I remember that I had a conversation with my scout master once, and I, I said to him, as we all know, uh, the motto was scouting is be prepared.
[00:04:38] Be prepared for what exactly was this amazing look on his face? And he said, how would I know? Oh my God. And that's it. You know, how would we know about this COVID situation? How would we know about all, all this tension and anxiety, uh, in the political world, in which we live it's. It's a, you know, a, a grade B script for Hollywood that never would get produced. That's just totally unreasonable. But the, here we are here we are.
[00:05:15] Laura McKowen: And how do you describe what you do cause you do, you've been doing this a long time. How would you describe what you do today?
[00:05:24] Leonard Perlmutter: What I do, and I think it's the same with you, Laura. We both are like modern day Johnny Appleseeds, uh, we go around and, uh, we have something that we believe is very helpful.
[00:05:44] It has been helpful for each of us in our own lives, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And it works. And so we plant seeds in the consciousness of other people, uh, with no expectations, no expectations just to, you know, it's just the joy in the planting. And so as Elvis Presley always said, I just love to sing this song. I just love to sing the song. And so I just love to sing this song. Yeah.
[00:06:14] Laura McKowen: That's a great way of putting it. I've never thought of myself as a Johnny Appleseed, so thank you for that. The message. Looking outside ourselves for happiness is a useless pursuit or set another way. Uh, it's always an inside job.
[00:06:31] Feels like it's never been more widespread. And at the same time, there's this big gap between that, those statements and what we see in the world. And I don't know that it's any more profound today than it is at a different point in life, but it feels more profound perhaps because of what we're going through. Do you feel like we're in a particularly acute point of sort of disconnection and where do we even start to make a difference with that?
[00:07:06] Leonard Perlmutter: Well, I do believe that we are in an intense time of change in yoga science. This period of time is referred to as Kali yoga. It's an age of destruction of forms.
[00:07:26] Yes, the goddess Kali and you get is, is the timeframe in which we live. And it is a time of, of, uh, much destruction, uh, of existing paradigms. And, and we know just from our own personal experience, that creativity begins with destruction. So we can't even make an omelet without breaking the. Uh, a seed has to die in that form in order for the plant to sprout.
And even though change is around us all the time, everything in the material world is something that's subject to change. You know, George Harrison, uh, saying about the, the idea that all things must pass, but human beings become very attached. And that's a lot of that has to do with the animal part of us.
[00:08:24] We don't even talk about this very much, but a human beings are essentially animals. Uh, you know, we have come from the earth, this mind body sense complex, and yet we are something that's. And what separates us from the other animals is, is our mind. One of the functions of our mind can actually go outside the current matrix in which we live to the center of consciousness and access superconscious wisdom from the superconscious portion of the mind.
[00:08:58] Uh, that sounds like metaphor or poetry, but it's really the same portion of the mind where Albert Einstein. So mathematical equations and Paul McCartney here's beautiful melodies. It doesn't mean that I'm going to become a song writer. Laura doesn't mean that you're going to become a physicist, but it does mean that the more that we can learn to use our conscience as our true guide and quiet the noise in the Antarctic. Coming from the ego, the census and the unconscious mind, then the conscience can make a choice for us and make a recommendation that will reflect perfect wisdom so that we can choose the thought to think the word to speak in the action to take that will allow each of us to fulfill the purpose of our lives without pain.
[00:09:52] Laura McKowen: There's a lot in there. It can sound very metaphysical and woo to say superconscious and conscience and things like that. What is the most practical way you've learned to explain the ability to tap into universal wisdom, as you just said, the most practical method that I have experienced is the scientific method of experimentation.
[00:10:13] Leonard Perlmutter: It's trial and error. Uh, let, uh, Thomas Edison be our inspiration. Uh, even a failure to Thomas Edison was not a failure. It was just an opportunity for a mid-course correction. And so the real challenge that every human being faces, as far as I understand, is the mind. And yet, even though the mind is our biggest challenge, it is our biggest opportunity.
[00:10:52] So we, we've never been taught how to use the mind properly. It's so interesting. If you think back about any level of schooling that you've had, this is my experience. The only thing that we've been asked to do is to memorize something and then be able to resell it. Uh, for example, like during an examination, and if we, if we get a correct number of, uh, answers that are appropriate, we'll pass the exam, we'll get a degree eventually and we'll be able to get a better paying job.
[00:11:29] Right. And that's it. End of story. End of responsibility for the educational system, but that's far from enough. What we need to do is we, we need to yes. Receive knowledge and assimilate knowledge, but then we have to take an action. We have to base our outer action on our own inner wisdom on our own inner wisdom, just for the sake of an experiment.
[00:12:00] And that means to coordinate and parents the limited, often false. Perceptions of the ego, the senses, and the unconscious mind. You'll see all three of those have only limited per perceptions and perspectives. They're often wrong, but they're never in doubt and ego senses and unconscious mind are loud and they're pushy and they're insistent. And they create a tremendous amount of noise.
[00:12:32] Laura McKowen: Well we think that's who we are that is even in school. I, you know, I don't remember being told anything. Like you are not actually these thoughts that you have that's right. Yes. So that's, that's the kind of observing, I think you're talking about.
[00:12:51] Leonard Perlmutter: Yeah.
[00:12:51] And when, when we can become detached from our thoughts, which are our most powerful resource, what happens? We create a space between stimulus and response, which is exactly opposite. What the culture is teaching us today with this whole. Strange concept of multitasking, which is totally impossible for a human being to do.
[00:13:15] Laura McKowen: Productivity. Yes.
[00:13:19] Leonard Perlmutter: Yeah. It's about productivity. It's about consumerism, but if we can create a space, if we can slow down and create a space between stimulus and response in that space between stimulus and response. Is our freedom of choice, our freedom of choice. And that provides us the opportunity to redirect our attention to our conscience as the conscience, to reflect superconscious wisdom into our conscious mind, and then parent the ego senses and unconscious mind for the sake of an experiment to try it.
[00:14:00] Laura McKowen: I like how you say experiment.
[00:14:03] Leonard Perlmutter: Yeah, that's right. The river and experiment is not forever. That's right. And, and you can still, where you're doubting Thomas hat, you can fake it until you make it right. You don't have to have blind faith. Try it. See how it feels. My experiences, my ego, my senses, my unconscious mind. Tell me that, uh, they enjoyed the experiments more so than they thought they would.
[00:14:44] Laura McKowen: Yes. Say more. So I would imagine there was an inciting incident or maybe multiple incidents in your life where you hit the limit of your conscious hit the limit of your mind and you, I was found pain is like the entry point. Like this, this isn't working I'm at the end of my, all the coping mechanisms that I have aren't working. And so was there an inciting moment for you event something in your life that unlocked this experimentation? This idea?
[00:15:21] Leonard Perlmutter: Yes. Yes. I think just generally speaking. I've always had an allergic reaction to pain.
[00:15:30] Laura McKowen: You're not the only one. Yeah. Nobody likes it. Right.
[00:15:34] Leonard Perlmutter: So, uh, that's number one, but number two, uh, I was raised in a, in a Jewish family, uh, and very loving, a wonderful family. And one thing that was very important in this family, this is sort of a stereotypical Jewish family. Uh, at the time that I grew up, at least food was very, very important. And the more food that you ate. Mama, my mother, she was smiling a lot, so that motivated the child to eat even more. And so, gosh, I was experiencing a tremendous amount of pain, a tremendous amount of pain because of the food that I was in physically. Right. And of course, mentally I was in pain also because I couldn't think of anything else because of the pain that was, that was in my gut. Yup. And so I began to experiment. That's what led me to a higher Veda and the science of yoga. And I began making different food choices and I tell people, uh, and I, I would tell your listeners the same thing that if I had the same mental software that I had when I was 14 and everybody remembers about approximately when they were 14, that's when that was the crown of creation. That's when we knew everything about everything, you're the first person to ever feel.
But if I, if I had that same software package today in place, in my mind, one of two things would be true either I would have died a long time ago or I would be in the hospital very sick. So what does that mean? Well, through my experimentation process, I no longer eat the food that the ego senses and unconscious mind.
[00:17:32] I have loved instead. Now I choose food that loves me. That loves my ego senses an unconscious mind, but also my brain, my eyes, my ears, my heart, my lungs, my joints, my mother.
[00:17:52] Laura McKowen: That's such a tangible example. You know, it doesn't have to be this catastrophic, extraordinary pain Mo you know what I mean? That is painful, but it doesn't have to be like, I, I, you know, going through an addiction or divorce or death, I guess what I'm, what I'm trying to say is the signals that we get about what works for us. What works for a capital S self, right? We're getting that information all the time.
[00:18:25] Leonard Perlmutter: Right? So that's why it's critically important that we listen to the whisper of pain, because if we don't listen to the whisper of pain and make a mid-course correction, then the decibel level of the pain is simply going to get louder and louder and louder and louder.
[00:18:45] Until a dis-ease turns into a disease, right? So why not just heat the lesson of pain at a low decibel 11 level and make a midcourse correction? Uh, in that regard, I think about Neil Armstrong in this little tiny, uh, lunar Lander, uh, going to the moon. The first human being on the. And he, he was riding this little, little craft.
[00:19:23] It was probably like a large garbage can and it wasn't very big. Right. But on his way from the mothership, uh, down hurdling down toward the surface. Of the moon. There were all these onboard computers that were, that we were reading all sorts of telemetry and the, and that information then was radioed immediately back to Euston to the space command center.
[00:19:49] And they had these huge, super computers at the time. Running them through these programs and sending Armstrong back information to direct him, how to fire his retro rocket rockets in a certain sequence for certain lengths of time. So he could have a safe land.
[00:20:11] Laura McKowen: So, are you saying that that information, that kind of information is available to us all the time?
[00:20:17] Leonard Perlmutter: 24/7
[00:20:18] Laura McKowen: And does the total, the mechanism meditation?
[00:20:23] Leonard Perlmutter: Yes.
[00:20:25] Laura McKowen: Why do people resist meditation so much? I'm talking about myself included to for I finally, after God years and I have my theories, I didn't really want to be with myself. It felt stupid and boring and frustrating. And, you know, whatever, but why do people avoid it? Why do we avoid it so much?
[00:20:46] Leonard Perlmutter: Well, there really is very little reinforcement. There is more reinforcement today than 10 or 20 years ago, but there's still very, very little reinforcement for meditation and the value of meditation in our culture. So when, when people, uh, To take on something new, they project their preconceptions, you know, epic TDS in the first century, a, a D said something that was important.
[00:21:18] You say, I said something to the effect that we don't really see the world. We see what we think about the world. Right. That's why Shakespeare says there's nothing, either good or bad, just thinking makes it so and so like with meditation, The unconscious mind and the reptilian brain are, are working overtime because any kind of change that we're not aware of creates fear and anxiety, right.
[00:21:50] And that ramps up, you know, the, what if situation, what if this should happen? What if that should happen? What if neither happens? And then we hallucinate about what, you know, what's the worst kind of scenario that could have. And so that dissuades us from, uh, meditating. But if the truth be known, we, we engage in the meditation process many, many, many times every day.
[00:22:17] And some of them are very enjoyable. Oh, explain that. Well, if I'm eating an ice cream cone and all my mental energy is focused on that one object. I'm not even there anymore. It's just this joy. Or if I'm reading a fantastic book or having a sexual relationship or watching a great movie, All of my mental energy automatically is coming down to one point.
[00:22:53] That's why I say I love those experiences. The ego attributes, my joy and my happiness to the object, but that's not true. It's really a function of how the mind is focused toward only one object. And we don't need the movie. We don't need the book. We don't need that particular relationship to bring me the joy and the fullness.
[00:23:21] I have it within me. If I can just quiet the mind. Go within seek within and find that joy and that fullness within. And that's the practice of meditation.
[00:23:37] Laura McKowen: That’s a fascinating way to put it. I've literally never heard it talked about that way. And of course my I'm thinking, yeah, I love ice cream and eating an ice cream cone can definitely bring me into pure focus and just enjoyment of the moment. Right. That's right. But. There's a very big difference to me between the uncomfortableness of sitting in meditation, which is how I find it to be much at the time.
[00:24:06] Leonard Perlmutter: Why is it uncomfortable?
[00:24:11] Laura McKowen: Because we have these distracting thoughts that come and you can't make that go away and you're not supposed to try to make that go away.
[00:24:15] Leonard Perlmutter: You see, that's the habit of the mind we going in. We have to understand that meditation includes the fact that the mind is going to go away. From the object of my attention, whether it's a mantra or the breath, the mind is going to want to change the channel. That's what it does for a living, no matter what it has never been trained to do otherwise.
[00:24:43] So we have to be very compassionate for that limitation of our mind and we have to parent it. And so when the mind wants to run off, we're not to. We're not angry. We don't think we're a failure. We don't think that this quote unquote meditation process doesn't work. We simply honor the distraction.
[00:25:05] Witness it, offer it back to the origin from which it came. Bring the mind back. To the prescribed object, be it the mantra or the breath. And we might be doing that over and over and over again. But slowly, slowly, slowly, if we don't ask the mind to meditate for too long, a period, don't start with 20 minutes.
[00:25:32] Start with 60 seconds. Give the ego, give the unconscious mind a good experience. So in that 62nd period, there will be some times where all you're aware of is the mantra or the breath. Yes, there will be these distractions, but over a period of time, more and more, it becomes relaxing and joyful rather than stressful.
[00:26:07] Laura McKowen: What's the starting point you recommend for people. In meditation, you just said 60 seconds, but what else? What is, what's the instruction?
[00:26:17] Leonard Perlmutter: Well, really I think that, uh, there is instruction before meditation. Of course, we want to learn to meditate and we will learn to meditate, but there are preliminaries that can really enhance the process. One is the breath because it's very interesting because the breath and the mind are inextricably linked. Right? We know that if, if the mind gets upset, oh, it upsets the breath. The breath becomes jerky. There's pauses. We hold our breath in, in certain kinds of situations or the breath becomes very shy.
[00:26:57] But it works the other way too. We can't just will the mind to calm down, but if we calm the breath, make it smooth. And even without jerks, without pauses all breathing through the nostrils, diaphragmatically using the belly, allowing the Vegas nerve. To be stimulated to turn off that cascade of hormones, surging in the fight-flight freeze reaction. Then as the breath calms down, it automatically calms down the mind. And a calm even mind is more willing to experiment with meditation.
[00:27:46] Laura McKowen: I thought I was resisting meditation for 10 or more years. I practice yoga. That was my way in because I was thinking, oh great. I love the way my, my body is. I feel so good. It's such a good workout. And I love the way my body feels, but I didn't realize for several years that I was actually learning how to breathe and that the breath was what actually made me feel so much better after doing yoga. So can you. About the physiological changes that we can manage and regulate with breath.
[00:28:25] Leonard Perlmutter: So we have to start with one fact, and that is that the mind and the body are one entity change, one changes the other. So if we can learn to calm the. Make it smooth. And even without jerks pauses or sounds breathing, diaphragmatically the belly swells, the belly contracts. If we can calm the mind that slows down the thinking process.
[00:29:03] Right. And that means that in the consciousness of the physiology, there is similar. A similar reaction and that comes down. And as our meditation practice deepens slowly, slowly, we're able to transcend the thinking process for a period of time and there is more stillness and that is equation. With what's going on in the physiology.
[00:29:43] Right? And so, as the mind calms down, transcending the thinking process slowly, slowly, the same kind of reaction occurs in the consciousness of the physiology. And that brings us to a point of equanimity still. And homeostasis that balance because the body wants to be healthy. What causes all this, these problems for the body, the mind, and, and all these lifestyle choices based on all these thoughts, desires, emotions, many of which are not helpful, but nobody has taught us how to make choices based on the best available wisdom, namely our conscious.
[00:30:53] Mikel Ellcessor: Hi, I'm Mikel. I'm the executive producer of Tell Me Something True and I co-created the show with Laura. We built TMST and our online community with the hope of creating a sane spot on the internet. We're really passionate about the ad-free nature of this work. Our belief is that this project works best if we're not hustling to keep advertisers happy, and we keep our attention on you, the TMST community, and this is where you can play a major role. TMST Plus is the membership group that helps to keep this podcast going. Whether it's through a monthly membership or a one-time contribution, TMST Plus members are vital to this experiment. As a TMST Plus member, you get to join Laura for member only events, send in questions for the guests, hear the complete unedited interviews and connect with other TMST community members. You know, sometimes we feel like we can't make a difference in the world. With a TMST Plus membership, you can be keeping this space alive and thriving for a one-time gift or for as little as 10 bucks a month. You can find the link in the show description and then please head over to tmstpod.com right now to support the show. And thanks.
[00:32:22] Laura McKowen: I want to switch gears a little bit here. I love the way you talk about karma. Karma is one of those concepts that, where we maybe have heard of, but it sounds very woo or punishing or it's it's unclear. Can you talk about it?
[00:32:41] Leonard Perlmutter: Sure. Let's look at the law of karma, the law of karma states, very simply that thoughts lead to action and that action can take the form of, words or deeds and every action that we take, whether it's speech or action brings about a consequence that can take us in one direction or. So I always like to start at the end of the story and work my way back. Right? So with thought leads to action and action leads to a consequence.
[00:33:26] I concentrate on the consequence. What are the consequences in every relationship that I want to experience? Well, I want to be happy. Okay. And I want to be secure. Okay. And I want the body and the mind to be healthy. Okay. That's great. That's, that's a wonderful ideal. That's great. Okay. What's going to get you to point B from point A.
[00:33:50] Well, you need a business plan. You need a philosophy of life. So what is it that causes those kinds of consequences of happiness, health, and security. Well, if you trace it back, it goes from the consequence back through the actions, to the thoughts. Oh, that's the power of the thoughts. If I can think certain thoughts and then serve only those thoughts, that motivate actions, whether it's speech or deeds that will bring me the health, happiness, and security that I deeply desire.
[00:34:32] That's the ticket, that's the cage. And those other thoughts, like fear or anger or egocentric or sensual desires that conflict with my inner wisdom. What am I going to do with those? Well, if I can sacrifice them back to the origin from which they came, the act of sacrificing the. thoughts will automatically transform that contractive, poisonous energy into an expansive creative energy that will enable me to fulfill the purpose of my life. So I'm a winner either way.
[00:35:21] Laura McKowen: Talk about the sacrificing, cause I think there's all kinds of misdeeds created in the name of sacrificing. It can take on an, almost puritanical vibe that isn't particularly helpful. I don't think. Um, and I know that's not what you're saying, but I want you to clarify that.
[00:35:42] Leonard Perlmutter: Well, that's good because it needs clarification, especially in this culture, because in our culture, the culture has hijacked many, many words. In, in our vocabulary, many words. And we have to understand that. And sacrifice is a, is a major word that has been colored by the culture in a negative way. Right. Somehow it always means denial. I'm denying something of myself and it's and it's unreasonable. Okay. So. Let's go back to the Latin.
[00:36:23] Laura McKowen: I was wondering why I'm thinking what's entomology of Sarah.
[00:36:28] Leonard Perlmutter: Where does that come from? It comes from the Latin and then, and then the Italian SOCRA Foshee make it sacred.
[00:36:36] Wow. Sacrifice. Make it sacred. Okay. What does that mean? Make it sacred? Well, what is fear? What is anger? What is self-willed desire that conflicts with my inner self? It's energy. It's energy. That's all right. It's energy, but it's a different form of energy. It's not like love. If I were to describe love with the palm of my hand, I would have an open, outstretched hand.
[00:37:05] But if I were to demonstrate with my hand anger or fear, it would be like this in a clenched fist. Yeah. But it's just energy. Right. And what did we learn in fifth grade? Fourth grade. Energy can't be created. Can't be destroyed, but it can be transformed. We know from our own personal experience, we can transform ice into water and water into steam.
[00:37:31] Well, why not transform the poisonous energy of fear and anger and selfish desire. Into strategic reserves of healing energy, an increase in my willpower, and an expansion of my creativity. Why not? Well, sacrifice making these certain thoughts that our conscience tells us through this superconscious wisdom.
[00:38:03] Is not to be served now in this present moment because it will not bring the consequence that we desire. It will bring pain instead, but if I can sacrifice it if I can make it sacred by offering it back to the origin from which it came, there's only one origin of all. You know, some people call it G O D.
[00:38:31] That's a concept G O D. That's only a concept, lots of different synonyms for G O D. But the, but the idea is one in the same, there is a Supreme intelligence that originates everything. Everything has come from the one, right. It's just like mathematics. Every number is really. Right. There is no three, three is just a concept indicating that one has appeared three times.
[00:39:03] So if I can sacrifice, if I can make that fear, that anger, that's selfish, desire that conflicts with my inner wisdom. If I can offer it back to the origin from which it came, it will automatically be transformed into strategic reserves of a healing energy. Increasing willpower and an increase in my access to the superconscious portion of the mind and I can use that potential energy anytime I need it. When I have a challenging relationship in front of me.
[00:39:43] Laura McKowen: Okay. How can you give a practical example of what this might look like in a difficult situation? Because where my mind goes is it's, this is knowledge that you're giving us it's wisdom, but it feels it's until you have had an experience of this until it becomes an embodied experience. It's really just information and it can be used. I think it is often used as a spiritual bypassing. Like, I don't feel anger.
[00:40:11] Leonard Perlmutter: No, no. I'm not saying I don't feel it. I'm just saying honor it and witness it for what it is. Yeah. And then recognize that your job in every relationship is simply to follow inner wisdom.
[00:40:26] Your purpose and your work in life in every relationship is to be an instrument of that wisdom that is within you. That is you. And if your inner wisdom through the conscience is telling you to sacrifice this particular thought, because it will not lead to happiness, security, and health for the sake of an experiment.
[00:40:56] Try it. And then stand back as an objective observer, the doubting Thomas, and ask yourself, how do you really feel physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually? My experience is I have felt better and that just has encouraged me to experiment with more habits that are stored in my unconscious mind. That I have picked up from my mother or my father or my grandmother or my grandfather or kids.
[00:41:34] I went to school with, or teachers or celebrities or politicians, but they're faulty, but they're, I'm carrying them still in my hard drive all wherever I go. And whenever my emotional buttons are pushed, those faulty concepts are the ones I go. And every time I use them, I'm in pain. So why not experiment?
[00:42:02] It's not forever. It's just an experiment and see how you feel. If, if you, if you don't feel better, I say, try something else, join a bowling league, you know, whatever, you know, whatever you think.
[00:42:17] Laura McKowen: I, I so hear what you're saying. I want to try to get as granular as possible so that it becomes something that's real for people.
[00:42:26] Can you give an example, like a specific thought one might have maybe that you've had yourself or a situation or one of the students you've worked with and what it actually looks like to sacrifice it in the moment, I think, and to listen to the wisdom within how do we know the difference between the wisdom within and what our mind is telling us?
[00:42:49] Leonard Perlmutter: Oh, that's an excellent question. And the ego has all these disguises to look like and sound like the conscience or even the Supreme intelligence itself. The ego was uh, it's the word of God. So let's say we just had a big. With dessert and all.
[00:43:25] And then the question becomes, are we going to brush our teeth? So what I do is I call a meeting. I immediately call a meeting because I can, I know I already hear the grumblings in the mind. Right. Because I'm the parent of the mind. So I know what the kids are already saying. They're not saying it to me.
[00:43:47] They're saying amongst themselves, But I, I can hear that. So I call a meeting in the kitchen, around the kitchen table. I have the, I have the ego, I have the senses. I have the unconscious mind and I have the conscience on the parent and I say, okay, we just had dinner. It was great. It was great. Lovely dessert.
[00:44:11] Are we going to brush the teeth? Then I call on the ego. I call on each one individually because I want each one to be received. I want to be open because the ego's not always wrong. You and I, Laura, we both need a healthy ego right now to have a conversation and, and make sense in that conversation or to drive an automobile or a truck.
[00:44:35] We need a healthy. So the ego's not always wrong. Neither are the census nor the unconscious mind. So I want to hear, what do you have to say ego about brushing the teeth and immediately the ear. You're going to say I voted against it and it sounds very unpleasant. I think it's a bad idea. And besides, I always equate change with some form of death.
[00:45:01] And so, uh, I don't want to give up control. So. I, so I say, well, thank you very much. Now, please sit back down in the chair. Quiet. Now I'm going to call on the census senses. What's your perspective? Well, the census says something to the effect that, uh, I have to vote. No, I have to vote no for the brushing of the teeth because, you know, I enjoyed the meal, but, uh, the dessert was fabric.
[00:45:29] The dessert was absolutely fabulous. We had apple pie tonight, as you already know. And that's my favorite. So I vote no for the brushing of the teeth, but I vote yes for a second slice of apple pie. Okay. Well, thank you senses, please sit down. And then I call him the unconscious mind and the unconscious mind might say something.
[00:45:51] Well, I'm going to vote with the ego and the center. We often vote together like a block, a voting block, and that's, that's my habit. Okay. Well, thank you very much. Now. I want all three of you to be quiet and listen, I'm going to call on the conscience and I'm going to ask the conscience to reflect superconscious wisdom from the superconscious portion of the mind, and then share that perspective conscience.
[00:46:22] And their conscience might get up and say, well, we all know this life is not really a sprint. It's more like a marathon. And in a marathon we need healthy, strong teeth and healthy, strong gums and a healthy, strong immune system. And if we can just take a two minute time out and brush the teeth, that will go a long way to serve us, to assure that we have.
[00:46:51] Healthy strong teeth, gums and immune system. Then I, as the parent, knowing ahead of time that I have chosen this experiment, because it's relatively easy at sort of a no brainer. I convince the ego, the senses and the unconscious mind. For the sake of an experiment. And I, and I reinforce that it's only an experiment.
[00:47:19] This is not a lifetime commitment. We're going to try it out and see how it feels. So we all go in, we brush the teeth, we come back and then I call on each one again, ego. What did you experience? Wasn't so bad. The ego says wasn't so bad and I didn't die. I'm still here. It wasn't so bad. Okay. Thank you, senses. How about you? Well, I have to agree with the ego. The senses say, I thought it was, it was going to be very disappointed because I wanted another slice of apple pie. When the tongue started gliding over my front teeth and there was no Moss on it. None of that Marcy feeling that I really dislike, it was rather pleasant.
[00:48:10] Thank you, unconscious mind. What do you say? Wasn't sober. Wasn't so bad. Okay. So what, what have I done as the parent? I've created a sense of trust on a very small myopic level. Now the ego, the census, and the unconscious mind now through this easy, no brainer of an experiment. And that's what we should start with.
[00:48:35] Start with what's easy. It'll be right. They trust me more and they trust the conscience more. The conscience is not going to steal away their control. The conscience is not going to obliterate them. So there are no more they're still here and they had a fairly pleasant experience. So as a smart parent, I have to look for experiments that are relatively easy that I can convince the ego of the senses and the unconscious mind to expand their consciousness, expand their perspective. That's my job. And the more that I can do that I create new healthy habits and I change old unhealthy habits.
[00:49:29] Laura McKowen: I love that because it's so easy to get.
[00:49:35] Leonard Perlmutter: It's gotta be easy. I'll tell you one thing I'll tell you which function of the mind is going to lobby for difficult and challenging and that's the ego. Oh yeah. Don't meditate. Let's not meditate for 60 seconds. Let's go for an hour. Why? Because it's a prescription for failure.
[00:49:56] Laura McKowen: I've noticed that you've said in relationship to refer to any situation and I assume that means because we're always in relationship. Whether it's to food, the food, the drink I'm having right now, or to the conversation we're having, the environment, etc.
[00:50:11] Leonard Perlmutter: All life is relationship.
[00:50:13] Laura McKowen: And I love that you keep emphasizing experiment too, because it's like, there is no, we're not trying to be good.
[00:50:29] Leonard Perlmutter: Nope. We're just trying to participate in this conversation. In a conscious way and a skillful way. To ultimately get what it is we want, what we, what we need, what we want might be different. Well, if you asked it, if you asked your conscience, what it wants, it would have a pretty good answer. It would have a healthy answer, but most of the time, what we hear about what we want, the conscience has an agenda. I think that the conscience is simply a pass-through. It's like a T. It takes these radio waves from far away and then on the screen, you'll see a picture. And so, the conscience can discriminate, determine judge and decide, but it's just a pass-through.
[00:51:09] It has the capacity to decide. And if the ego senses and unconscious mind are still unruly, it'll just rubber stamp. The loudest voice. That means that every choice we have ever made has always been made by the conscience. It's the only function of the mind that can, that can decide ego senses and unconscious mind are only advisors. They're only advisors. And if they create such a mess and such, such noise in the, in the mind, The conscience will not be able to reflect super-conscious wisdom. It will only be able to rubber stamp the loudest voice.
[00:51:44] Laura McKowen: Got it. What have you learned that people actually want? Uh, cause I don't think it's happiness. I mean, I think they sure they want to be happy, but happiness is like, eh, it goes all over the place.
[00:51:58] Leonard Perlmutter: Every, every, every word is colored by the culture. So happiness is one of those words, but just for the sake of argument, if in every circumstance and every relationship, when you take an action, that brings about a consequence. If you could be happy, if you could be content, if you could be secure that would be a pretty darn good start.
[00:52:28] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Point taken. I'm not saying you're confused about the word happiness. I think the way you mean it as the, is in the deep sense of, you know, a P a sense of peace.
[00:52:40] Leonard Perlmutter: Yes. And, and in the process, you begin to understand who you really are, that even though you have a body, you're not the body, even though you have a mind and these thoughts and desires and emotions, you are not the mind.
[00:52:53] You are not the thoughts. You are not the desires. You are not the emotions, but you are, you are, you are eternal. You're an eternal being, not subject to change death, decay, or decomposition. And you are also consciousness itself. The background of all reality, and within consciousness resides in intuitive library of what.
[00:53:21] The superconscious portion of the mind and consciousness itself, the characteristics of consciousness is bliss in fullness. So we are eternally conscious, eternal consciousness, wisdom, and bliss, having a human experience through a mind body sense complex. That means that we are citizens of two worlds.
[00:53:50] And the purpose of life is to unite the two worlds to unite, the two worlds to base our outer action in the world on our own inner wisdom. And the more that we can do that, we diminish the conflict in the mind. If we diminish the conflict in the mind, it diminishes the conflict in the body and in interpersonal relationships on the other hand, If we maintain conflict in the mind between outer action and inner wisdom, there is conflict that inner conflict becomes the mother of all problems.
[00:54:34] Laura McKowen: I imagine you encounter a lot of skepticism or have in, in the work that you do. How do you keep going?
[00:54:44] Leonard Perlmutter: Well, as I mentioned in the very beginning on Johnny Appleseed, I plant seeds. I know the value from my own personal experience. If people push back, it only means that they're just not ready to do the work and that's okay. Everybody's got to come to their own decision. I'm not out to change the world. I'm out to purify my own answers. So I can see clearly and I can make better choices in the process if I can share with other people. That's great. I enjoy that because I know the profound changes that have been made in me.
[00:55:24] Laura McKowen: That's beautiful. The mastering your own instrument, ending the conversation with where we are today in this cultural moment. How do you think about it?
[00:55:38] Leonard Perlmutter: I think it's a golden opportunity. I think it's a golden opportunity. It's sort of like we're in a, uh, a race and the Baton has just been passed to us. What is the work of art that you and I are going to create?
[00:55:52] Are we going to be living someone else's life? Are we going to be living our life? Are we going to be true to ourself? Are we just going to become a carbon copy of my mother or my father or my grandmother or my grandfather, my father? Not that they're malicious and not that they're always wrong, but in this type of endeavor, you stop blindly becoming a herd animal, trying to tuck yourself into the center of the culture.
[00:56:26] Sometimes that can be valuable. Sometimes it can be destructive. We have to know the difference and the only way to know. You know, to thine own self, be true where Shakespeare talks about is to honor your inner wisdom and serve it in every relationship in mind, action and speech, and just see what happens. That's why I tell people like from a, from a conversation like today, I don't believe a word. I have said be a critical thinker.
[00:56:59] Laura McKowen: Like the Buddha said.
[00:57:01] Leonard Perlmutter: That's right. Don't believe me. If you have any interest experiment for yourself, transform your entire mind, body sense, complex into a laboratory and experiment with every thought, with every desire, with every emotion and just see what happens.
[00:57:22] Laura McKowen: I love that. That seems like as good a place as any to end. Thank you, dear sir. Again, thank you so much. That was great.
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