What would you do if someone said you could “find comfort for the most vexing questions in our digitized lives in the wisdom of 19th c. European philosophers”? Sara Kuburic has taken up that challenge. Through her online persona as The Millennial Therapist and in private practice, Sara’s training as an existential psychotherapist integrates modern mental health knowledge with some of the most complex Western thought. Sara’s work provides a thrillingly lucid, concise and grounding response to The Big Questions. Bonus… she’s funny, engaging, and our time together flew by! You can find Sara here: https://www.sara-kuburic.com/ The Millennial Therapist IG account (a must-follow:) https://www.instagram.com/millennial.therapist/ Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4KkM9nu9EV2Jhe9SHbcusX?si=a9550c0642444b87&nd=1 Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/
Tell Me Something True with Laura McKowen
Sara Kuburic on Becoming the Millennial Therapist
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. If you're listening to this, you're not hearing the complete unedited version of this conversation. If you want in on that, you can get it by becoming a TMST plus member. Just head over to our website at tmstpod.com and click support. All right. Enjoy this.
[00:00:27] Hey there, it's Laura. Well, this week's episode is another adventure of discovery. I didn't know Sara Kubrick before Mikel showed me her work. He sent me an Instagram post of hers, and while I liked it for sure, I still didn't really appreciate what made her work different or unique. As you I'm sure have noticed, there are a lot of therapists taking to Instagram in the past several years and I think the net effect of that is probably largely positive. More people have an understanding of basic psychological concepts. It's definitely lowering the scare factor on having mental health conversations. All of these things are awesome.
[00:01:13] I'm also skeptical about it. Anyway, when I dug into Sara's background, I was immediately intrigued. She's trained in a field of psychology called existential analysis. Have you heard of it before? I had not. When I started looking into it, I almost could not believe that it existed. It's a modality that layers questions of meaning, purpose, existentialism, no surprise, and responsibility that have traditionally belonged to philosophers and it layers them into the more accessible humanistic approach of psychotherapy. To see names like Heidegger and Nietzsche inside of a therapeutic approach was so thrilling to me.
[00:02:03] So talking to Sara, I was so excited to talk to her and understand more, and she made it even more interesting. Her interest in psychology stems from growing up in Yugoslavia and actually living through wars, which she says caused her to have a sense of cynicism about life and humanity at a young age. As a nomad, she's lived all over the world and has the old soul wisdom that comes with directly experiencing life in many cultures in often really unpleasant circumstances. Given this background, of course, it's not surprising that she was drawn to a framework like existential analysis. What is surprising is that she's been able to make these teachings accessible to such a large audience.
[00:02:51] So she calls herself the millennial therapist on Instagram. That's her, that's her account handle. And she has over a million followers. And I presume, can't prove it, but I would presume that most people do not share her background, but they gather around her content and she has this Cohen-like style of communicating big existential level ideas, but doing it in a way that is also compassionate and curious, and really accessible.
[00:03:25] In our conversation we talk about how some of the core ideas of existential philosophy like responsibility and meaning apply in a therapeutic approach. We talk about how Sara came into her work and why she doesn't agree with some of the modern takes on concepts like vulnerability. I'm off social and glad for it, but I can say that the work she's doing there is a real force for good in the world and I'm so excited for you to meet her. Enjoy.
[00:04:06] Laura McKowen: I am super interested in this field of existential psychology. I'm not, I didn't get any education in psychology myself, but I have been what I would consider a pretty dedicated student, mostly for my own purposes. It's a super deep interest of mine and I hadn't come across the existential psychology framework until I was researching you. So tell us what it is.
[00:04:38] Sara Kuburic: Yeah. I'm not actually surprised at all. It's a bit disappointing, always when you're like, oh, North America, come on. Um, and that is a lot more popular in Europe. So it's a psychological modality that's grounded in European philosophy and it focuses on human nature and human experiences, particularly experiences that we all share.
[00:05:03] So, death, but death, responsibility, meaning those sorts of questions. It really allows the client to face difficult things and ask those really difficult nerving questions such as who am I? What is my meaning in life? Which I think are very universal. And so I think it's a really unique modality.
[00:05:32] Laura McKowen: I'll pick one thing that you mentioned in the little group of big topics, responsibility, like what would be the sort of approach towards a question about responsibility?
[00:05:45] Sara Kuburic: Yeah. So I think the framework of this conversation would be to understand that all those philosophical questions that we have, which have led to a lot of distress, philosophically speaking, psychologists have said, well, how can we actually use these same questions to empower and to ground in the reality of what it is to actually be human, which I think is really beautiful.
[00:06:10] And I think there are, you know, some basic premises like humans have the capacity for self-awareness to varying degrees, but we have the capacity for self-awareness. We have the capacity to take responsibility, to experience freedom, to create a relationship with ourselves, to seek meaning. And so, I think all these things are really beautiful.
[00:06:31] If we're looking at responsibility in a session with a client, it's almost empowerment. Yeah. Freedom comes with responsibility. You cannot live without any responsibility. The fact that you're free and the more free you are, the more responsible you are. It's you're thrown into life, so to speak, but that also makes you very empowered. I think people always get stuck on the fear of responsibility when in reality it just means you get to create who you want to become and you get to create the life that you want to live.
[00:07:07] Laura McKowen: We really messed that one up in Western culture, in the US like really bad, this notion of responsibility, it gets really murky. And, you know, even just saying personal responsibility aligns you with a particular political group, and then it just like, all these things get glommed on to that. When, in my experience, responsive, appropriate responsibility and acceptance of one's responsibility is one of the most empowering, good news things that we can do for ourselves.
[00:07:40] Sara Kuburic: Absolutely. And I think responsibility got diluted with the concept of performativity. I feel like being responsible for yourself is not the same thing as performing for others and appearing responsible. These are not the same things. And I think sometimes we try to oversimplify concepts like this, and that's where we get in trouble in psychology, in general, where sometimes being responsible for yourself might appear irresponsible to others.
[00:08:16] And sometimes by being responsible towards others may infringe upon your ability to be responsible for yourself. And I'm not saying there is, you know, a perfect solution for this, but that's just the reality. And so sometimes it's really complicated and really difficult to know what it means to be responsible. And it'd be really great if we, as a society, understood that and offered grace. And I just don't think that that happens and responsibility is such a ugly word now. And even in psychology, you know, I have friends who are on Instagram as well and they'll be like, every time I write about responsibility it does not do well because we've also computed responsibility with blame.
[00:09:00] So we're trying to place responsibility on other people, which totally fine, some people should take responsibility, but there has to be a distinction between blaming someone and asking them to be responsible.
[00:09:14] Laura McKowen: That’s an entirely different energy, a totally different energy, and it's a dead end road. It's a dead end road.
[00:09:20] Sara Kuburic: The intention is completely different to me saying, I really want you to take responsibility for the way you hurt me is different than me wanting to just blame me for the way you hurt me. And sometimes maybe you do deserve the blame, but again, the intention and the potential resolution is really limited.
[00:09:37] Laura McKowen: That's a beautiful way of putting it. So how did you get into this? How did you find it? How, how did you get into it?
[00:09:46] Sara Kuburic: Yeah. So this is a long story. You can cut it.
[00:09:49] Laura McKowen: No, no, we like the long ones. Yeah.
[00:09:53] Sara Kuburic: So my background is I grew up in former Yugoslavia, which is now Serbia and Bosnia and a bunch of different countries. And then the war started. So we fled to Serbia and then the second war started and we moved to Canada. So my view of humanity was quite, I would say negative, from a very young age and I really gravitated towards heavy and dark literature is what I'll say. So I read Dovskievsky when I was like 13. I don't think that's super normal, but I think the way he experienced the complexity of humanity really resonated with me because I could not make sense of so much hatred in so much pain that I've seen and experienced.
[00:10:38] And so you know, some people call Dovskievsky an existentialist as well and so he posed all these questions and I think he just kind of stayed with me. And then when I was in grad school, I was actually into like cognitive science and neurology, like just the complete opposite where I was like, you know, I don't, I don't need those feelings. Give me solutions. You know, and so it was just, I think at that time I was also running away from myself a little bit as well, which is really fascinating. And long story short, in grad school, some of my professors were existential therapists and they said, Hey, there is this second sort of equivalent, probably to another master's that's going to be offered from the NM in existential analysis, which is a particular field of extension therapy.
[00:11:29] And I was like, oh my God and I went to a seminar. It was like three days long and I was like, take my money. I started training and nothing's ever made sense to me before. I think it was a time that I made sense of myself and I made sense of the world and the suffering. I saw it and the way to alleviate some of that suffering.
[00:11:51] And so there's a really personal story, but I think I really liked it because it was solution focused. It wasn't about just the way that you behave or you think it was about who you are and about embracing the complexity, facilitating authenticity and facilitating responsibility. And to me, those were huge because I know that life can't be perfect and I think that that sort of naivety was stripped away at a very young age. So it was really cool. I feel like it's really holistic. I felt like it was saying all the things, I didn't know how to articulate, but very much knew deeply inside of me all along. And I find that, you know, they do pay attention to somatic experiences.
[00:12:37] They do pay attention to your thoughts. It's not that they just totally ignore it, but I just have found it to be one of the most, and this is a big claim I'm making here, but I do find it one of the most holistic approaches. Cause I, you know, I've been trained in many modalities and this is the only modality and I'll use tools from other modalities sometimes. But this is the one where when I look at a client to really fully understand them and their existence, this is the framework that I use. And I think that that's a really powerful tool to have as a therapist.
[00:13:11] Laura McKowen: How do you refer, in existential psychology, how do you refer to this self? What aspects of the self are you most focused on? You said it's holistic. So do you talk about mind, body spirit? Is there a concept of neat you is very, he talked about. God sorta like?
[00:13:32] Sara Kuburic: Yeah, no, this is a super wonderful question. I think in essential analysis, there's four fundamental motivations or four pillars if you want to call them. And they all relate, they're all kind of interconnected. So it's a bit complex, but you have your relationship with the world with other people in your values with your emotions, and then you have your relationship with yourself and you have relationship with your meaning and your purpose in life. And whenever, for example, you have a client come in. What you would often do is you would obviously listen to their story, but more often than not, you will pick up on which kind of mental motivation they're struggling with and they're all interconnected. So, you know, if one motivation is really struggling, chances are there's another one.
[00:14:17] And when we look at the self, we really look at it holistically. As in, how does your sense of self exist in the world. Does it feel like it can even exist? Do you have the support to have, and not just like financial support, but can your body physically support you to exist? And then you have like, do you like to exist? This is the second central question, like, do you like to exist in this world? Are you connecting to your values, to your emotions, to the people around you, and then you have the third one, are you connecting to yourself? Do you have permission to be yourself? Do you know who that is? Are you creating that person? And then the final one is, are you creating the meaning? Is there a meaning? And that can be very spiritual and religious or that can have nothing to do with that at all. But it's the concept of meaning, it is incredibly incredibly important for humans.
[00:15:06] Laura McKowen: Yes, yes. Yes. Oh, that's so exciting. Yeah. Say the four again?
[00:15:12] Sara Kuburic: The four questions are the form, like the four pillars. So it's your relationship with the world, your relationship with other people, your relationship with yourself and your relationship with meaning in life.
[00:15:26] Laura McKowen: Part of what I think is exciting is because what I feel has gone missing from American culture, I can't speak to European culture or really anywhere else with any intelligence, is this connection to and conversations around meaning, and I think this is tied to the responsibility conversation, but I'm deeply interested in are conversations around meaning and what makes one's life meaningful? What's it like to have conversations with people about that?
[00:16:14] Sara Kuburic: Yeah, the people that seek me out are not always people that are searching for meaning, but I think ultimately that question gets addressed at some point. I do find that people who have really succeeded quite young are often the ones asking that question a lot earlier. So once you have the success, the money, the career, the New York lifestyle, and you still don't like your life or yourself, or don't know what the point is, that's when it gets really scary. I think as long as you're striving towards any goal, that kind of becomes a placeholder for our purpose, or it becomes our whole purpose, but once we've ticked that box, it becomes really scary. I think it's another reason why we live in a society that's obsessed with being busy.
[00:17:03] I think it's a part of avoiding yourself. It's not about the fact that we like to be overworked. Why do we have Netflix? And we just watch it all the time. Yes. It's entertaining, but I think it's also escapism. And so I think that the conversations are not being had, because it does induce anxiety. And even when I talked to my friends, cause I'm that really fun friend at a party, like, what's your meaning in life? How are you relating to your meaning today? You know, and it's so fascinating to see people just get, not fascinating, maybe that's the wrong word, but really frazzled or, or not know. It took me a while and I think your meaning can change. It's not something that has to be set in stone and mine goes along the lines of what you said with responsibility, but it's also responsibility to other people. For me, if you're not serving in some capacity, if you're not making an impact in some capacity, I really struggled to find meaning in life. And you know, some people might not agree with that at all, and that's totally fine, but it took me a while to figure out what it was that made me go, I'm going to embrace life and wake up every day. And this is what actually makes me feel grounded and aligned and all that good stuff. And it was serving in some capacity. And so I think having these sorts of conversations with other people, many came to very similar conclusions with my friends, which I think is interesting where I'm like, who do we all link together because we have the same meaning and we don't even know it.
[00:18:42] Laura McKowen: I don't feel like there's never a case where you're not impacting people. You're either impacting them in a service or, you know, in a, in a positive way or negative way. Absolutely.
[00:18:55] Sara Kuburic: I think what I was poorly articulating was that taking responsibility for that impact is what gives me meaning, not just the fact that I impact because as you said, I do it all the time, but it can be completely meaningless. I think when you're really intentional about the type of impact you want to create, then it becomes something that's filled with meaning.
[00:19:29] Mikel Ellcessor: Hi, I'm Mikel. I'm the executive producer of Tell Me Something True and I co-created the show with Laura. We built TMST and our online community with the hope of creating a sane spot on the internet. We're really passionate about the ad-free nature of this work. Our belief is that this project works best if we're not hustling to keep advertisers happy, and we keep our attention on you, the TMST community, and this is where you can play a major role. TMST plus is the membership group that helps to keep this podcast alive. Whether it's through a monthly membership or a one-time contribution, TMST plus members are vital to this experiment. As a TMST plus member, you get to join Laura for member-only events, send in questions for the guests, hear the complete unedited interviews and connect with other TMST community members. You know, sometimes we feel like we can't make a difference in the world. With the TMST plus membership, you can be keeping this space alive and thriving for a one-time gift, or for as little as 10 bucks a month. You can find the link in the show description, and then please head over to tmstpod.com right now to support the show. And thanks.
[00:20:58] Laura McKowen: Your handle is the millennial therapist on Instagram. Yeah. What is that about? Like, how did that come to be, and is it because you are a millennial or that you, and so they’re who you're focused on, you know, issues that are specific to millennials and if so, like, what are you seeing?
[00:21:19] Sara Kuburic: Yeah. So that name was a bit of an accident, not an accident, but it was just like brainstorming. I was like, well, this sounds good. I can always change it. My initial thought was my handle was to ensure that whoever followed me understood that I was a millennial. Non-millennials can definitely follow me. I get it. People are like, I'm not a millennial, but I like your page. I'm like, thank God. Like it's not meant just for millennials. It's okay. Like, you don't need to show me your ID. No, but I have lived as a nomad so long at this point, and I have a very millennial type lifestyle. So work remotely, live all over the place.
[00:21:59] My time zone changes every couple of weeks, months. And I almost wanted the people that follow me to understand a bit about who I am, and then also understand that I know what it's like to be a millennial and that I can resonate with what it is to kind of live through that as well. And so that's where I came from. I also at that time was like, I need to get clients. And I was like, I want my clients to understand we're on the same page, but also like I travel. So like, you know, our sessions won't always be at the same time. I dunno, a lot of random thought went into this. Yeah. And I, I do think that he was really helpful and I think it's so beautiful to have a community that's probably largely millennial because we're all going through something. And I had a conversation the other week with. I think it was my sister where it's really difficult for millennials to have mentors nowadays. And I think it's because no one's lived through what we've lived. So I have some really wonderful mentors in my life, but culturally, they don't really understand what it's like to live in the media world because they're 17.
[00:23:06] They never did it. And so I think a lot of millennials are finding that it's hard to have mentors in a normal sense and that we are kind of mentors for each other. I thought about that, which is like, if I need help or guidance with something, I'm more likely to ask another 30 year old than I am someone older, because they’re probably lacking the experience and the reference, not about everything, but it was so fascinating because I came to this conclusion. I was like, wow, we're probably, I don't know. I feel like a really unique generation that way, where we've created a society in which we don't actually know how to function.
[00:23:42] The change happened so quickly and there was no blueprint for it. And we're like, wow, yay. Great. So much has changed. And then we're like, oh my God. And so our relationships suffered, our sense of self. Oh my goodness. I think people are really having a hard time identifying who that is. I think there's a lot of overstimulation. There's a lot of disconnect, even though we're all more connected through social media. I think there are a lot of components that have made the millennial generation a bit more complex and demanding. It's no longer enough to have a house in a home and earn a salary. And that's great. It's like, no, you shouldn't be a millionaire and only work two times, like two hours a week, but also to be a millionaire by the time you're twenty five. And it's just like, there are so many insane expectations on this generation that it is quite unique and maybe hard to resonate unless you've lived through it.
[00:24:38] Laura McKowen: I'm glad you brought this up because I have a lot more empathy to be honest, a lot of the things that I struggle with that we're all struggling with how connected we are with technology, with the internet, with social media. Like that is the last 10, 15 years. It's not before that. Right. So, but I got to live most of my life and my early adult life without that whereas you didn't, that's really interesting. I'm glad you brought it up and that it's like, it would be hard to have mentors.
[00:25:12] You specialize in what you call moral trauma. What is moral trauma?
[00:25:17] Sara Kuburic: So I used that as a big broad term, just to give people some indication of what it is, but I actually specialize in something called moral injury. And moral injuries experience of having transgressed, one’s morals, ethics, or values and the spiritual and psychological self, you do it to yourself.
[00:25:43] So actually there's three different ways. You can experience it. You can witness something that's been done, the transgressors, your ethics or morals. You can do it yourself or something can be done to you and the psychological and spiritual consequences of something like that. It's not a psychological disorder, but it's a very painful human experience that for a long time mimics symptoms of PTSD. It actually started off in military studies and then over the last, I would say decade. So in 2009 it was kind of coined, but in the last decade it kind of started to be teased out and realized like this is a very different experience, but often comes with the experience of PTSD within the military population.
[00:26:27] Laura McKowen: Is this what the modern language around trauma is like? Or is it different?
[00:26:32] Sara Kuburic: This is a really complicated field of study because there isn't even an agreed upon definition. There are certain individuals within the field classified as trauma, a type of trauma, and there's people that don't. And I think it's a really powerful human experience that can have equally detrimental consequences if not dealt with a property appropriately.
[00:27:03] Laura McKowen: How do you approach that? Why are you drawn to this area and what sort of about it is pertinent to your practice?
[00:27:09] Sara Kuburic: Yeah, so that's great. I was drawn to it initially because I've lived through wars and I don't have PTSD. I don't have diagnosable trauma, but I knew that it changed me. And I knew that it had changed me in ways that weren't necessarily beneficial or healthy.
[00:27:29] And I was really curious to see, was there a concept out there? Both to that experience and moral injury was the closest thing that came to it. I personally actually did studies outside the military, which I don't know if there are many, I did one within domestic violence and I did one within infidelity right now for my dissertation.
[00:27:51] So do we get morally. If we cheat on someone, it's actually about the perpetrators of infidelity. And so I'm just really curious if it's not trauma, but it's life changing. If it's self altering, what is it? And so that's kind of where the curiosity goes because many clients who don't experience trauma or are not diagnosed with trauma, but they've definitely experienced things that morally have altered them and they don't know how to reconcile and move forward.
[00:28:23] Laura McKowen: Wow. Yeah, I'd be so curious about, as someone who cheated on my partner, my husband, it was very wrapped up in my drinking and everything. And I've talked openly about this enough, but I would have a lot to say about that. Like being the person who did that. I don't know the exact definition of moral injury, but it, sounds right.
[00:28:49] Sara Kuburic: Yeah. And no one listens to perpetrators of infidelities. What I found, it's such a taboo topic that everyone's like, well, you caused the hurt. So it's like, there was a lot of hard, probably the way that they were feeling before they caused hurt. But I would say that, you know, even if you're the perpetrator, quote, unquote, you still need compassion and love and healing because hurting another human. I don't think we'll ever feel natural for our human beings. As in, you know, by hurting humanity, humanity, you're hurting the human or the humanity within yourself. And I think that came through really strongly within my research.
[00:29:29] Laura McKowen: Wow. I'm really glad you're doing that. I think that that applies to a lot of areas. The extraordinary pain definitely applies to people who struggle with addiction because they commit so many injurious acts to people around them. I always say, you know, they hate themselves more than you ever could.
[00:29:52] They're in more pain on their own, then you could impart on them. That's a really tough conversation to have though, because there are real injuries. So I'm really glad you're doing that work.
[00:30:08] Sara Kuburic: Thank you.
[00:30:10] Laura McKowen: Your Instagram, for as much as I dislike Instagram for myself these days, I do very much appreciate that there are spaces within there that are beautiful and very helpful, and your space feels good when you're in it. Thank you. And you do present things in a slightly irreverent way. Sometimes I understand why now given talking to you and you, and I mean, that is a total compliment.
[00:30:41] Sara Kuburic: I'm not sure what you mean by that...
[00:30:42] Laura McKowen: Oh, I mean that in the best way, there's so much pop psychology and just, there's a way we're supposed to be talking about vulnerability right now because of good, good work that has been, you know, it turned into memes and stuff. And I love what you had to say about vulnerability. Just the idea that vulnerability is not always appropriate and not always even good.
[00:31:09] Sara Kuburic: Yeah, absolutely. I think I just kinda got tired of seeing vulnerability be forced. Particularly actually I was having a conversation about whole other world. I literally started an account this week, just so I know. And I don't like actually going on it because I find it too overwhelming. But if I put a couple of videos out there and someone wants to watch great, but it's not a platform that I generally enjoy. It was interesting. A lot of friends, interviewers, people are talking about how traumatizing it can be to be on there because people will express really vulnerable things that trigger the crap out of people and it can be quite damaging.
[00:31:55] And then they will also get really hateful comments, which can then be damaging to them. And anyways, I was just sitting there listening to this culture. Vulnerability. And I was like, wow, that is incredibly inappropriate. Just like for so many reasons. First, my heart goes out to the person who's being hated on for being so vulnerable.
[00:32:13] And then my heart goes out to people who were just crawling as they ate their meal. And then, you know, got triggered. And so it was kind of along the way where I started to see vulnerability, you really be forced, or, you know, I have clients who say during, you know, work, I'm forced to talk about feelings because we have this circle of connection and all this stuff, whatever it is. And I just think vulnerability leads to intimacy. Vulnerability within itself is really intimate. And you need safety and intimacy. You need safety and space for vulnerability. And why would you want to be vulnerable with someone that you don't want to be intimate with? I'm not talking about lying, don't be dishonest, but there's a difference between honesty and vulnerability.
[00:33:00] And it's not always safe, right? Vulnerability by definition is being exposed and you don't need to be exposed all the time. You can choose when you want to be exposed. And when you choose those moments, that's beautiful. And I know that as a society, we've just shied away from it so much that there's this like overcorrection now, but I just kind of wanted to let people know that it's okay if you don't want to be vulnerable with everybody, it's okay. If you're crying and don't make a story about it and Instagram, like it's okay. And it's okay to take care of yourself.
[00:33:31] Laura McKowen: Donald Lee has it. Okay. But it's like, please, because I mean, whenever I see cry faces, you know, people would snap a picture of them crying.
[00:33:43] I think that is a sacred moment of your life. So I think that instinct, the impulse comes from a very honest place in us, just really a need, an honest need of course. And we're told, oh, this might work. If I tell you, you know, if I share this sacred moment with you, I might get something of what I need.
[00:34:09] Sara Kuburic: And you probably will. Let me know a little bit. You may get that moment of validation. But again, there's competing needs there too. So I don't think you're going to get the ultimate validation and acknowledgement that you truly want, which is probably from yourself. I think if your attention is, I had a hard moment and now my attention is external.
[00:34:37] You're not paying attention to what's happening. I mean, there's people that post and I think part of it, wow, that's beautiful because now it tells people like even people in social media seem perfect. I've never done a crying picture, but I've definitely been a picture of like, Hey, how shitty is today?
[00:34:53] Like, and you know, people thank you for that. Great. But if every time you don't feel okay with yourself, it's taken publicly for it to be resolved or solved or addressed in an external way. That's where we get in trouble. When it comes to vulnerability. You know, I'll put like, had a bad day, but I won't be like, this is why I had a bad day.
[00:35:16] And for me, that's a personal boundary where I speak very little about myself, but enough for you to know that I'm a legit ass human. I'm not, you know, whatever you might think I am with projections and assumptions and, you know, whatever comes with Instagram where people just assume everyone's life is rainbows and butterflies. I think boundaries are really important with vulnerability. Vulnerability without boundaries can also be selfish.
[00:35:41] Laura McKowen: Wow. I want to just linger on that point about when you take something that's happening internal and you put it out externally. I've done this so many times to get out of the feeling and try to fast-track the process of feeling better. But it never took the place of actually healing. Can we even receive the gifts of intimacy with someone we don't know, or with people online? Like, is that even possible?
[00:36:22] Sara Kuburic: That's such a good question. Genuine intimacy. Arguably no, because I think for genuine intimacy, there has to be so much safety, which I dunno how you would possibly achieve that with a stranger from the internet.
[00:36:38] I think you can get a sense of belonging, maybe a moment of connection of validation or appreciation, but. I think over time you could probably build intimacy, but I think we also have to be careful with what kind of intimacy we have built with people. Like intimacy is also not appropriate in all contexts.
[00:36:58] Laura McKowen: Correct. That's another thing, right? It's hugely not appropriate.
[00:37:06] Sara Kuburic: We talk about people who are like, will have sexual intimacy. It's like no emotional intimacy is also not appropriate in a lot of contexts. That's something we need to keep in mind again, we're like intimacy, vulnerability. Yay. And then like words such as responsibility and boundaries. Like, no, but we really need all of them to, to actually create something that's healthy because both can be taken to extremes.
[00:37:32] Laura McKowen: Yeah. And, and I'll tie this off here, but I think so much of it is for, in my own experience, wanting to make it happen faster too. What I mean, it's, it's such a long game. Like I just keep thinking about the long game of sobriety, the long game of therapy. I have tricked myself into thinking I was better off than I was emotionally because of social media, because of chasing different highs, you know, addictions and different things. And that pit of fake intimacy or connection can carry you for a while, right?
[00:38:18] Sara Kuburic: Oh yeah. We think it's real for a long time, or we don't want to acknowledge the fact that it's not. And I think the issue with healing and that's also become, it's so sad. I feel like some of these words are just being so stolen. It misuses. Healing is never gonna relieve you being here. Do you know what I mean?
[00:38:42] Laura McKowen: Of course. I know what you mean. Yeah. My, my friend Sam Lamott says, I'm sorry, but I can't remove your humanity.
[00:38:47] Sara Kuburic: And so, like, I also think we have unrealistic expectations. And then people are like, well, if we don't have high expectations, we're going to be shitty humans.
[00:38:57] Maybe that's true if there wasn't responsibility, but I feel like responsibility and acceptance of our humanity together is quite a beautiful balance. But I think when we're expecting to never feel pain, when we think about past events or never, those things are just not realistic. And so the fact that you're crying in your car is probably okay. Sometimes it's just, okay. And it's a really good way that your emotions are communicating with you. And now you're more aware and more embodied and that's beautiful. We're not trying to get rid of this. Amen.
[00:39:29] Laura McKowen: That's a good place to land. We are not trying to get rid of that.
[00:39:38] Alright, thank you so much for being with us today. If you want more TMST head on over to tmstpod.com and become a member. Members get access to the full uncut versions of these conversations, previews of upcoming guests, invites to join me for members-only events and access to our members-only community where I hang out a lot, especially now that I'm not on social media. We decided from the beginning to make this an independent project, we don't have sponsors and we don't run ads.
[01:02:30] This means that we can make the show all about you and not what our sponsors or advertisers want, but it also means we're a hundred percent reliant on your support. So my request and my invitation is simple. Support the show by becoming a member, or you can simply make a one-time donation of as little as $5.
[01:02:51] I cannot stress this enough. You can make a huge difference for as little as $5. Please head over to tmstpod.com right now. Tell Me Something True is engineered and mixed by Paul Chuffo. Mikel Ellcessor and I dreamed up this show and we're looking forward to joining you online and next time on Tell Me Something True.