What would life be like if we could identify ALL the emotions happening in and around us and have empathy for it all? Sharon Adams has a few ideas on how we can get there. Sharon’s a master trainer and facilitator in workshops around emotional intelligence and conflict resolution. She’s also someone who has profound insight into the lived reality of unconscious bias and inclusion and the stories she shares are super relatable. This episode of TMST is for everyone who has worked or lived with someone who isn't present to their emotions - or have struggled themselves. Deep down, we know that developing our emotional intelligence HAS to be at the center of everything we do. It’s foundational to our success as human beings. As Sharon makes clear, emotional intelligence is the Swiss army knife of relationships. And understanding how to use all the tools in it is a key to enjoying a peaceful life. Workplace Climate (Sharon’s firm:) https://workplaceclimate.org/ Sharon’s training programs: https://workplaceclimate.org/training-descriptions Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1w4SWXCviVjpahK1Bz1DR1 Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/
Tell Me Something True with Laura McKowen
Sharon Adams on Emotional Intelligence
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. If you're listening to this, you're not hearing the complete unedited version of this conversation. If you want in on that, you can get it by becoming a TMST Plus member. Just head over to our website at tmstpod.com and click support. All right. Enjoy this.
[00:00:30] Mikel Ellcessor: Hi, it's Mikel here and I'm stepping in to introduce Laura's conversation with Sharon Adams. Today's Tell Me Something True is kind of our version of the Pixar movie Inside Out. You know, it's all about our emotions, how we get to know them, how they run us and how they shut us off from other people. And our guide is Sharon Adams.
[00:00:49] She's a master trainer and a facilitator in workshops around emotional intelligence and conflict resolution. She's also someone who has just this profound insight into the lived reality of unconscious bias and inclusion, and the stories that she shares are just super relatable. As Sharon says in our conversation, emotional intelligence is the ability to recognize and identify and record your own emotions and those of others, and that strong emotional intelligence is central to our ability to have empathy so that we can be present and accepting. When we see things coming up in others, if you've worked or lived with someone who isn't present to their emotions, or if you've struggled with it yourself, you know, in your gut, why emotional intelligence has to be at the center of everything that we do and why it's foundational to our success as human beings.
[00:01:44] And look, I get that. You may be thinking that this all seems like really obvious or basic, but here's the catch: many, many of us can't readily identify our emotions and the way that we're labeling our emotions, doesn't have the kind of nuance and specificity that we need to stay in our bodies and connected to them. And at these gaps, they drive a lot of the unconscious bias that exists in our lives and is at the root of the conflicts that we face at work and at school, in our faith communities, all over the place. And as Sharon makes clear, emotional intelligence is kind of like our Swiss army knife of relationships and understanding how to use all the tools in it is a key to enjoying a peaceful life. Sharon was a blast to get to know we learned a lot. So we hope you enjoy it.
[00:02:45] Laura McKowen: I wanted to start with emotional intelligence because I feel like it's this area where people know that it's a thing, but they don't really, they don't really know what it is and it's sort of the shorthand for a really deep topic. What is emotional intelligence and why should people care?
[00:03:05] Sharon Adams: So if I had to put it into a sentence, I would say emotional intelligence is the ability to recognize and identify and regulate your own emotions and those of others. So it's a combination of what we do with our emotions in the moment, in many cases. And then when I see things coming up with other people, how do I address that, which we call empathy and why does it matter? Well, we know that IQ is fabulous, right? It's what gets us in the circle. So you gotta have it. So we don't want to just completely dismiss IQ. It's really important. But how many people work with folks who are super intelligent, intriguing, detailed, but you can't stand base with them.
[00:04:02] We can all think of people right now. Like, oh my gosh, right? We all have, we all have time, but when you have high EQ, it can actually help you to outperform others, even if you have a lower IQ. So it's really a powerful tool. It helps us to connect with folks. It helps us to understand difficult ideas, to share interesting ideas. It helps us to bring folks together so that they're more productive. They're more creative. There's a sense of belonging when you have an institution or organization that has a high EQ. So it's really at the center of all that we do. It will, it should be at the center of all that we do in order to be successful.
[00:04:54] Laura McKowen: The thing I love about this is that it's something that can actually be learned. So if you're in an environment where there's high emotional intelligence, what does that feel like? What are some of the characteristics you notice?
[00:05:08] Sharon Adams: And, you know, before I share that, I want to go back to the comment that you just made that was so powerful, so powerful to this subject, and it is that emotional intelligence can be learned. And when you think about IQ, we don't grow our IQ very much after the age of 17. It pretty much is. I mean, we can learn more information, but we don't grow IQ. EQ on the other hand, you can grow and go, as far as you'd like, you can learn, you can develop, you can evolve. And so I think that I didn't want to miss that powerful point that you made.
[00:05:51] Laura McKowen: I agree. I want you to maybe touch on the capacity for us to learn and what you've seen in your work. The, maybe tough cases where you've just seen people really change.
[00:06:08] Sharon Adams: Yeah. What is so important around change as it relates to each cue is self-awareness because so often when people are not self aware, things come that they have caused, and they blame everyone else. Right. And so you're the one with the problem. And so that's our natural instinct.
[00:06:31] Laura McKowen: It really is. Thank you for sharing that, but when we aren't able to be self-aware, um, we lose the ability to learn about how to, how to make change.
[00:06:33] Sharon Adams: I love this crazy example. I use this quite a bit. Imagine that you are visiting someone's home. And you arrive at their home and they have this beautiful pool and they check you in with your room where your room is and you get in there and you think, oh my gosh, I'm going to go put my swimsuit on. And I am going to get into that pool.
[00:07:05] And you're like so excited. And they're like, Hey, make yourself at home. You know, whatever works for you. So you go walking out to the pool and you're like, oh my gosh, I am going to do a cannonball. And so you backed up as far as you can't and you just go running and running and running and you grab your knees and you jump into the pool and you make this enormous splash. And you're like, wow, that was the biggest I've ever made. How cool is that? And then you go to get out of the pool and you notice that there were people sitting around the pool. You have splashed cold water into their drinks. Their towels are wet and they are just furious. And you get out of the pool going, what's wrong with them?
[00:07:59] Like he just had a great kick about it. They like losing it. And that's all of what happens when we use self-awareness. We do things to make this big splash and then we're just scratching our heads. Like I don't, I don't know what's wrong with that. You know, as in young people would say their train and I've completely forgot your question.
[00:08:29] Laura McKowen: Oh, it's fine. No, no, no, no, no. That's great. I'm curious about the capacity for people to change.
[00:08:36] Sharon Adams: Yeah. They totally have the capacity to change. They totally have the ability to step out to the pool and look around and gauge what's appropriate, what's not appropriate and control their emotion. Just, I would love to do a cannonball, but oh, well look, there's people sitting around the pool. Maybe that's not appropriate right now. But that does take some willingness, this desire to learn because it's work. It's not like you can just read a book and be emotionally intelligent, right?
[00:09:07] It takes work. It takes trial and error. It takes forgiveness of yourself when you make mistakes so you don't get stuck. I've seen some great transformations, but it really has to do with people. In most cases, they've made some huge mistakes and they're at the point where it's like, we don't want you to work here anymore. We love you. You are fabulous in terms of your intelligence, that you've been both. We can't function. This is toxic. Right. And they'll get to like this crucial point. And then they'll say, okay, I want to do that. Or even in a relationship where the person says, I can't deal with you anymore, but usually if they get to a breaking point and that's when they want to lean in and learn more.
[00:09:52] Laura McKowen: Okay. So what does someone's life look like when emotional intelligence is in place?
[00:10:01] Sharon Adams: Yeah, so there's three things that I like to point out and you can ask yourself these three questions. First question is how quickly can you get back to center when something disheveled you, whether it's a conflict at work or, um, in your relationship with your partner or something had happened at the grocery store or someone who flipped you off on the freeway, how long does it take you to get back to center?
[00:10:31] Does it topple your whole world and you lose perspective? Um, so that's a question you want to ask, because if you are emotionally intelligent, you're able to put it in perspective. You're able to not take it personally and you're able to problem solve. And when we lose the ability to problem solve because of a conflict, because of an issue, we know that it's a matter of emotional intelligence.
[00:10:57] Laura McKowen: And I pull apart this one point. Yes, because I feel like this one thing you said is so important and it’s not taking it personally. Yeah. What is behind that?
[00:11:09] Sharon Adams: Oh my gosh. See, I take it personally and I get, if I can, out of that pool and the people around me or say, I can't believe you did this. I'm like, this is, I don't know what you're talking about. Why are you attacking me? Why? I'm just having a good time. What's wrong with you, right? As opposed to, oh my gosh, this is what I did. I can see the impact of that attack, but if I don't step outside of myself, I lose the ability to see the issue from the other person's point of view, when it's all about me and nothing else matters. So I've gotta be able to step up in order to be able to problem solve in order to think critically in order to control my behavior and control my emotions. And I love the book, The Four Agreements. So I really encourage people to read that. It does really stress a lot about the whole idea of not taking things personally.
[00:12:22] Laura McKowen: That was life-changing for me. That, that teaching in particular, I think it is for a lot of people because it's really painful. It's not like when you're taking everything personally and it's all about you, you're living in this cloud of positive feelings about yourself. It's actually really painful to have everything be about you. It's an obsession of self is what we often call it in recovery circles. It's an extraordinarily painful place to be because you become kind of paranoid. You become almost childlike. You know, you stay in this childlike place if there's no room to expand and it can go beyond the concept of I. That's, that's, it's a lonely place to be for one. And it's very, it's, it's an emotionally stuck place.
[00:13:19] Sharon Adams: It really is. And then the second question is, are you able to name your emotions as they come up? Can you say, oh, okay. This is anger. Okay. I'm feeling sad right now. Or I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling pointed at right. What am I feeling right now? And then am I able to make a joint to those feelings so that I'm not blobbing on other people. I like to say name it to tame, right? When I name what it is that I'm experiencing, then I can problem solve. But if I don't know what those emotions are, it's just one big blob of feeling and emotion that I'm going to act in a way that's not reflective of where I want to be.
[00:14:10] Laura McKowen: Why does naming help you? Why does naming help it? Like, what is that?
[00:14:15] Sharon Adams: Great question. Naming helps to put it in its place, because what happens is emotions want to be all over the place, right? I'm like, so I'm angry, not just at the person who flipped me off. Now I go to a store and I'm angry at that person who didn't check me out quick enough. Now I'm angry at my spouse because he didn't let the dog out. I'm angry at the garment man. Right. But when I name it, I tame it and in the moment I put it in right now I'm really angry because this guy flipped me off on the freeway. I'm not going to take it personally. He doesn't know me. I don't know him.
[00:14:51] I can go about my merry way, but I've got a name that because it'll just become this big, giant thing that can impact so many other things that don't even apply. Right.
[00:15:03] Laura McKowen: And that implies learning what emotions you are feeling because so often they just feel like these balls of energy and we react. However, it's almost like we react in whatever way we feel is going to give us the relief that we need from feeling the discomfort of that. So do you, does your background teach that each emotion has a sort of corresponding action that it, or a question, like anger. Is anger a boundary being broken? And so we ask what boundaries are being broken either internally or externally. Is that, is that the school of thought you come from?
[00:15:53] Sharon Adams: Absolutely, but I do it in a much more general way. So whenever I'm feeling something uncomfortable, whether it's anger or sadness or whatever, there was one question that I always asked myself, what am I afraid of? Because that's really the pit, the point behind this fear. I'm angry because someone flipped me off. What, what am I afraid of about that? Because I've been waiting too long in a line, is that because I'm feeling neglected like, I'm being ousted? I'm not as important as I thought I was?
[00:16:34] What am I afraid of? And I began to pull that apart. And then once we do that, we can again put it in its place. And that's what is so important around emotional intelligence is putting the emotion in this place. Not, not to dishonor it, not to disregard it, but to give it perspective. And now I can think creatively about all the other areas once I put the emotion in place.
[00:17:03] Laura McKowen: Right. Yeah. So could you give an example, like in a workplace environment, how this could be applied? Maybe something you encountered?
[00:17:13] Sharon Adams: An example that happened to me just the other day, I had a dentist appointment. Yeah. An early morning appointment. I always prefer early mornings because they're not backed up yet. And I think I get in and out. So I had an 8:30 appointment. I was like, yes, I got an 8:30 appointment. I get in there and I sit in the dentist chair and they are already backed up. I'm sitting there and I'm just like, I’ve got appointments. I've got things I need to do. So I'm on my phone trying to rearrange my life and I'm feeling so frustrated and so irritated at how long is this going to take? Maybe I should just cancel the whole point of the appointment and just get up and just walk out? And then I begin to name my feelings as I was sitting there. Okay. Let me put down my phone. What am I feeling right now? Well, I'm anxious, feeling a little annoyed. I'm feeling angry because I had an 8:30 appointment and at 9:30 I still haven't been seen. Right. So I'm naming all of these emotions. Then the dental assistant comes in and he was just frazzled and so he's running from one bay to the other, trying to help people and to prepare them for the doctor to come in.
[00:18:29] And I realized that I needed to be empathetic. Immediately. And I said to him, gosh, looks like you are all having a challenging day today. And he looked at me almost shocked, like, just get, yeah, it's been hard. We had two people who didn't show up. One of the doctors is running late. And, so now I'm not taking this personally. I've already named where I've put them in and now I'm able to be empathetic. So I'm able to acknowledge his feelings, which is my third characteristic. Are we able to identify emotions of others and are we able to treat them the way they want or they need to be treated? And so suddenly when I have this empathy rising up, my feelings of anxiety and frustration are shifted because I can't do both at the same time.
[00:19:24] I can't be angry and frustrated and then also be empathetic toward him. And I'm thinking, wow, this is hard. And I said, well, is there anything I can do to make it a little lighter? So I had another procedure planned for the east coast. Gosh, if you don't mind coming back to do that one thing, that would just be amazing. And I said, no problem. Right? So my empathy now is actually helping to relieve, it's also helping him to be a better practitioner and he's able to provide a better service to me and probably everybody else in the office.
[00:20:00] Laura McKowen: That changed the rest of his morning, probably.
[00:20:03] Sharon Adams: He comes in, I'm frustrated. I don't have the ability to name and tame my emotions. I don't have the ability to change my impulses. And I'm just like, what the heck is going on? 8:30? This is ridiculous. I'm never coming back to this place and you are horrible assistants. You didn't do this. You didn't do that. Now, I'm more worked out, right? My emotions are not in its place. They are all over the place. He's going to have a worst day. I'm going to leave and I'm going to be irritated with everyone else that I meet with. Right. So there's that difference. We see emotional intelligence and how powerful it can be.
[00:20:49] I made an impact on him whenever I see him, whenever I go back to that office, he will always remember that experience. I'll probably have better service as a result of that, as opposed to Mercy Wells dumping up and down theories. And, and I was, I had a right to be angry, right? It's not as if my emotions are displaced. I mean, I had a right to feel that, but being able to shift that impulse, to be empathetic and to control my own emotions are really so important in this whole process around learning to be emotionally intelligent.
[00:21:30] Laura McKowen: Yeah. And I love that example. It's perfect. Everyone can relate to that. And it occurs to me that it's, it's a lot of responsibility for your own experience. You can't control what happens, most of what happens, but, taking responsibility for your own experience, would you say that's true?
[00:21:54] Sharon Adams: Yeah, exactly. And it all goes back to what you were saying earlier about, I'm not taking things personally. I mean, that was not about me. This was about a whole bunch of other things that came into play before I even stepped into the office. But if I make it about me, I'm unable to be empathetic.
[00:22:15] Laura McKowen: One of the things that you talk about is having an accurate self-perception, but what does that mean?
[00:22:20] Sharon Adams: So if I go into that dentist's office and I think I am the cat's meow, do you think you are not going to see me on time? Are you out of your mind? I am this, I am that, but accurate self perception says I'm a patient, right? And no more important than all the other patients who are having to wait. Right? So I'm seeing myself for who I am and seeing that I really need to exercise responsibility. That's my role, right. Is to be responsible for my own emotions and for the way that I address other people. That's it for me, that's the most important concept is where am I responsible here? How can I be more empathetic?
[00:23:14] Laura McKowen: I think the tendency is for people to over inflate their own importance. Do you find that sometimes people don't have any sense of importance that their self-perception is so small that it creates a different, but similarly, maybe a destructive dynamic for them?
[00:23:33] Sharon Adams: I totally agree that you can go the exact opposite to where, oh, I'm not important. Go ahead and take all day. It's okay. You know, it's just me and, you know, yeah the exact opposite. You want to land somewhere in between.
[00:23:50] Laura McKowen: Your work must have really been and I would imagine continued to be of extraordinary importance last year due to the pandemic, the cultural things that we were facing and continue to face and just all these factors that have contributed to so much tension and so, so much polarization, you know, othering of people.
[00:24:20] Sharon Adams: Great word.
[00:24:22] Laura McKowen: Can you just talk about that? Why should we, maybe this is too obvious of a question, but I just, I want to acknowledge the moment that we're in and what you're seeing?
[00:24:36] Sharon Adams: Great question. Oh my gosh. And, you know, talk about a perfect storm if there be any such thing, right. Where, I mean, the pandemic, the racial unrest, the violence against the AAPI community. I mean, we listen to the political environment, all of the environmental things that are taking place, whether it's fires or earthquakes or floods, I mean, just it's enormous. In fact, I made a joke the other day, I was talking to this person from Africa and I said, this is just unbelievable. You know, I'm just waiting for the locust to show up and his eyes get big and he goes, they have. I was just floored. He said in the community where he lives in Africa, the locusts landed and ate up hundreds and hundreds of acres of farmland and they don't know how they're going to recuperate from the lack of the food source, where they were already low.
[00:25:42] And I thought, oh my gosh, the locals have arrived. So yeah, we just were and are in the face of so much unrest. And what I'm seeing to answer your question is, you know, I've been doing this work for some time and always been, you know, pretty busy people, inquisitive and wanting training and wanting, you know, consulting and so forth. But now a necessary part of work before it was like a nice to have, Hey, we'd love to have you come and do this, this and that. Oh, great. Thank you. That was awesome. Now it's need to come and do this, this and that and can you follow up and what kind of other tools did you have to assist us? And I mean, so it's different in the sense that people feel like it's necessary right now, in order for them to navigate their world of work and outside of work, even places of worship are having the same types of issues of just community connections.
[00:26:47] I mean, we see it on all levels. That would be, I think the one most single thing that I'm seeing is that we see it as a point of necessity, whether it's around training, whether it's around restorative conversation, whether it's around consulting, how do we handle this or that within the workplace, whether it's how to develop employee resource groups or whatever, all of it. So there's a necessity at this point.
[00:27:15] Laura McKowen: Does that make you feel hopeful? Are you more hopeful now honestly, about the work that you're doing and the impact it could have than you were two years ago? Or, or do you feel something different?
[00:27:31] Sharon Adams: Wow, that is such a profound question.
[00:27:34] Laura McKowen: Don't be afraid to answer honestly.
[00:27:37] Sharon Adams: Thank you for that.
[00:27:38] I needed that permission. Honestly, I feel hopeful, but I also feel some concern. I feel hopeful because people are reaching out people who never even cared right about diversity, equity and inclusion now are asking questions and they're leaning in as opposed to leaning out that I feel very hopeful about.
[00:28:01] Well, it makes me sad. I feel like in some respects we're swinging the pendulum to the other side and, um, we've entered into this cancel culture, right? So you said this one thing, so we're gonna chop your legs off and tops. You went to the seat and that makes me sad. And I'll even say fearful, right?
[00:28:29] That we were moving from one extreme to the other. And the idea of assuming positive intent is all those a mystery anymore. And so what do I mean by assuming positive intent, it means that I assume that you're operating to the best of your ability. Even when I disagree, even when I don't understand it.
[00:28:52] So it doesn't mean that you don't need training doesn't mean that you don't need the restorative conversations. It doesn't mean that you don't need connection. So we need to address the issue, but duplicate the top, you off at the knees, do we have to appeal your toenails? Right? Can we have you in a space of growth?
[00:29:09] And I think that what's missing for us is that middle ground of understanding that we're all at different places on our journey. Um, and let's bring folks who are all right, in a way that's not judgmental. That's not unkind, no one learns from being beat up in that way. Right. We learn from being brought along, um, and being kept in a space that says that we're allon this journey. Some of us are a little farther than the other, but we're all in this together. Um, and so the answer to your question is two-sided. Yes, I feel hopeful, but on the other side, very concerned about the way we're addressing calling people out, as opposed to calling them in and embracing them. And I'm in a space of safety, and knowledge, non-judgemental interactions I think are really important.
[00:30:06] Laura McKowen: I love that answer and it just feels very honest. I think I find in my experience, and I would love to hear what you think that when we get one-on-one with people or in smaller groups or facilitated situations, it's a very different experience. And empathy is possible. Change is possible. Growth is possible. Forgiveness is possible. Humility is possible. Healing conversations. But when we, when we, well, social media is a whole thing. That's a place where I see it.
[00:30:44] Sharon Adams: The fearful thing that you're talking about a lot.
[00:30:46] Laura McKowen: I heard someone say once it's hard to, it's hard to hate people up close. Do you find that that's true that in, in a room in one-on-one or in small groups, it feels more hopeful than it does when you zoom out and you look at the media or you look at social media and things like that?
[00:31:06] Sharon Adams: Yeah. Let me answer that question by being a little bit, hopefully not too scientific. So we are very tribal in nature, right? It's really important for us to be a part of the pack, because if you think about Neanderthal or in the animal kingdom, when someone or something was ostracized from the pack, it meant that there was a matter of life or death. I could die because I'm not a part of the pack. So that means I'm subject to someone picking me off very quickly.
[00:31:43] When you think of the Neanderthal and their use of the amygdala, right? The medulla says fight flight or freeze. It was a matter of survival. So when you address someone in a group, whether it's on social media or in a large room and you call them out, their immediate fear is very private. I'm being out, straight from the tribe and it could mean a matter of life and death and they have that same emotion, right.
[00:32:17] That Neanderthal or that animal would have when they're ousted, because it means that I'm going to be killed. I'm going to be eaten. Now talk about naming entertaining. We don't have the ability in most cases to name that emotion, we just rise up out of it. Right. And we start to, you know, accuse and fight personally, we find right.
[00:32:41] But when I pull someone over in a, in a one-on-one situation or in a group, and we're able to dialogue in a nonjudgmental way, there's not that fear that I'm going to be asked to from the pack. It's not that fear of imminent death that very primal needs your survival. So it does make a huge difference as to how we interact around these.
[00:33:04] Laura McKowen: So I want to talk about the, I think you call it the mood meter. How does this work in a work environment? Because I think there's this idea that in work cultures, that we don't bring our whole selves to work. We're not supposed to display certain emotions, really many emotions, uh, except for positive ones at work. So how has introducing something like this gone for you over time? In workplace environments, how can people use it?
[00:33:34] Sharon Adams: Right. So that truck was developed by Dr. Brackett out of Yale university. And there were several different versions of it, but I like that one really super crystal clear. So, um, when we think about emotions in order to be emotional, intelligent, we really have to have a strong vocabulary around emotions because that vocabulary helps us to express what we're feeling to other people, but it also helps us to express ourselves, right?
[00:34:04] So that we can name it entertainment for ourselves. So an example would be, imagine if we were in the world in a workplace together and imagine that you decided you're going to host a happy hour and you got together with a bunch of folks and said, Hey, we're going to have happy hour today at four o'clock and we're going to this particular restaurant. Okay. But you didn't invite me. So, and so the next day I came to you and I said, Laura, I feel sad that you didn't invite me to, um, to the happy hour. So you get right. You understand? I feel sad, but what have I said, I feel alienated that you didn't invite me to the happy hour.
[00:34:48] I really felt dismal about the fact that you had this event and I wasn't invited. I felt troubled, right? That's a little different nuance, right? That you didn't invite me to be out. So I can say I feel sad, nothing wrong with that. But the more I explained clearly in a word as to what I felt, the better, I am able to communicate to you how I'm feeling.
[00:35:14] And it also helps me to drill down as to how my feelings work, because feelings don't like to be dishonored. They don't like to be disregarded. No, because if they don't, they're going to come out. And another way, I'm going to show you how I feel about it. Right. You're going to come up with an idea and I'm going to pool your idea because I didn't get to go to happy hour and I don't feel like I was hurt, or I'm not going to respond to your email tomorrow because you didn't invite me. And I didn't acknowledge those feelings. So they're going to come out. It's when, and it's how being able to express those feelings, even if they're not exp you're not expressing it to the person, being able to name it and tame it within yourself and to control your emotions is really important in the workplace. And, and I say the workplace, because that's my area of expertise, but in, in relationships in families, right? And in every area of our connection, it's really important to name it and tame it.
[00:36:14] Laura McKowen: I've heard that expressed as emotional granularity. And I think that's what you're saying.
[00:36:21] Sharon Adams: I use a tool that I find super, super helpful. If you are part of any recovery circle and you might be familiar with this tool, but I've trained it quite a bit. It's called a five GS. Okay. So what I do every evening, um, or sometimes in the morning I sit down and I write out the 5g. So the first one is gratitude and I write, what am I grateful for?
[00:36:53] Suppose I'm doing this at night. What am I grateful for? That took place today? And it might be a list of things. And then secondly, what could I exercise more grit in doing so I need to push a little harder or really pull something apart. And then the next one is the glitches. Where was there a glitch?
[00:37:13] Things didn't go quite the way I wanted them to go. What could I have done differently? And then the fourth one is grace, where do I need to give myself more grace? Right. Whether it's an interaction between someone, whether it's the way I'm approaching a situation, whether it's a, something that feeling that I have.
[00:37:35] And I haven't honored that feeling within myself. And then the fifth one is goals. What are some goals I want to set for myself for this day? So the fine, jeez, really helps us to put their emotions again in its place. Right? So it's not this one big, giant thing I'm separating them out. And because emotions are just one big, giant thing, and I'm saying it's anger. I don't even know what I'm saying. I have no idea. I was just angry.
[00:38:04] Laura McKowen: No grace, no grace, definitely no grace. Right?
[00:38:07] Sharon Adams: I don't know where I need to exercise grit. It's just like all God. So putting the emotions in their place, it helps us organize our thinking and it helps us to control our behavior because now I see things in perspective. Okay.
[00:38:25] Laura McKowen: I love that. I love that. I know people are going to be, I can hear them like writing down the five things.
[00:38:44] Mikel Ellcessor: Hi, I'm Mikel. I'm the executive producer of Tell Me Something True and I co-created the show with Laura. We built TMST and our online community with the hope of creating a sane spot on the internet. We're really passionate about the ad-free nature of this work. Our belief is that this project works best if we're not hustling to keep advertisers happy, and we keep our attention on you, the TMST community, and this is where you can play a major role. TMST Plus is the membership group that helps to keep this podcast going. Whether it's through a monthly membership or a one-time contribution, TMST Plus members are vital to this experiment. As a TMST Plus member, you get to join Laura for member only events, send in questions for the guests, hear the complete unedited interviews and connect with other TMST community members. You know, sometimes we feel like we can't make a difference in the world. With a TMST Plus membership, you can be keeping this space alive and thriving for a one-time gift or for as little as 10 bucks a month. You can find the link in the show description and then please head over to tmstpod.com right now to support the show. And thanks.
[00:40:13] Laura McKowen: Okay. So I want to move towards the concept of unconscious bias. Tell us what unconscious bias is and why it matters.
[00:40:20] Sharon Adams: Unconscious bias. I think in some cases it's been given a bad rap and in some cases rightfully so. Right. So what is unconscious bias? Basically, let's go back to Neanderthal again. And we talked about the mental up and remember that our brains were not fully developed when the excuse me, Neanderthal existed.
[00:40:42] So the Neanderthal had three responses, right? It was fight, flight or freeze. And the reason why that was so important was because when they stepped outside their cage, if something was coming at them, they had to decide very quickly because if they didn't, they could be eaten by saber tooth tiger. That part of our brain has not yet evolved or when I say yet will ever be evolved so we still operate with the amygdala, which is very important because if I walk outside right now and there's an 18-wheeler coming at me, fight flight or freeze, it's really important. I don't want to be looking in the window of the table and going, oh, I wonder if I know that guy,
[00:41:29] Laura McKowen: We have to be able to assess threats.
[00:41:32] Sharon Adams: So I need to be able to have that skill or that tool to go into fight flight or freeze if it's necessary. So we need it. We need that unconscious bias on the fullest side of that is very damaging when it comes to a person. So whenever I see someone who is different from me, I begin to assess. It's fight, flight or freeze necessary.
[00:41:58] And so whether it's someone who was black, whether it was someone who was Muslim, whether it was someone who is Jewish, whether is a woman walking into a boardroom, whether it's all men, whatever the difference is, I immediately start to ask myself is fight flight or freeze necessary. And it happens subconsciously. We do not think about these. It's just the way we're made. Yeah. Just the way we're made. Thank you for saying that. And so the idea that is to interrupt those biases, the idea then is to manage them so that we can get to a point of really understanding people. Um, I love this quote by, uh, Dr. Eberhardt out of Stanford.
[00:42:45] She says that we always say that seeing is believing, but really believing is seeing. So we have this idea of what people are, who they are based on what they look like. And we believe, uh, what we want to believe based on what we think about those aspects, as opposed to getting to know them and then forming beliefs.
[00:43:13] Laura McKowen: I love that. I love that. Okay. So that's really helpful. Would you say that a lot of the issues that come up or, or a good part of the issues that come up, conflict between people as a result of unconscious bias in some way?
[00:43:33] Sharon Adams: Sure. We have these, what I call unspoken rules in our heads. It does have a lot to do with bias. And so when someone breaks out of an unspoken rule, it will determine how angry, how frustrated, how irritated. I'm sitting in the dentist's office. And suppose my unspoken rule is you can't be late to assist me. I might go zero to 60 in 10 seconds. But if that's not my unspoken role, I might not have the same challenges in order to problem solve through that issue.
[00:44:08] Some people's unspoken rule is don't step in front of me. I'm in a lie. I mean, other people's like, oh, Hey, did you realize I was here? And it's not that big of a deal. Right? So the unspoken rules really do dictate how we respond in a situation. And that's why you'll hear some people say, well, why are you giving care? That was not a big deal, but that was not such a big issue. Well, that's not your unspoken rules, so you're not going to take it the same way as someone else would have.
[00:44:35] Laura McKowen: A huge one, interrupting. Oh, I found that I noticed, and this is just my experience. I noticed that I would get interrupted as a woman. Offices with a lot of men, they would interrupt each other and, or not. What I noticed is I got interrupted a lot. I felt like I had to really fight for airtime. Yeah. So I'm like, that would be, and so when it did happen, even though perhaps they were interrupting each other too, I would flip out. Sure. Right.
[00:45:19] And, that can be an example, perhaps of this thing that I had going on in my head and maybe a thing that they had going on in their heads to these unspoken rules, or is it sort of rules of engagement that we're, we're playing different rules of engagement and it created a massive amount of internal conflict for me. Is that something that you come up against in an office a lot?
[00:45:42] Sharon Adams: Oh, well, well, two things. Women are interrupted more than men, statistically speaking. So not out ofthe box with those thinking, but if they're, if that's just their M.O., then it's not necessarily about you, that's just the way they roll.
[00:46:05] But if that's your unspoken rule, it takes you to another place. It really does. And I want you to be less creative, less productive, less motivated. Yeah. So a lot to do with this is, you know, it's harder to forgive when someone has broken one of your unspoken rules.
[00:46:26] Laura McKowen: Okay. Okay. So let's talk about forgiveness because I feel like this is where the rubber meets the road with people.
[00:46:35] Your approach seems to be a very functional process of forgiveness. Can you walk us through sort of the anatomy and practice of forgiveness?
[00:46:44] Sharon Adams: Sure. So let me just start by saying that. Many people don't forgive because they don't know what forgiveness is. They assume that it means that the person who wronged them should not have a consequence for their behavior or that it diminishes the harm that was caused or that they are less than if they forgive.
[00:47:17] So it really does play into a whole other thought process. When you think about forgiveness, understanding what forgiveness is, it really is, again, back to putting things in its place. That's number one, it has a lot to do with seeing the offense as an opportunity for your own. So now I'm not taking this personally, but how is this growing me in some way?
[00:47:49] And then asking the question, what am I afraid of? Because that fear takes us into fight flight or freeze mode.
[00:47:59] Laura McKowen: Thinking about the person who needs to the person who has been wronged or harmed asks themselves, what am I afraid of if by forgiving this person, my refusal to forgive this person, what am I, what am I afraid of?
[00:48:14] Sharon Adams: And then the other question that was really important to ask is, especially if they've had, you know, anger for some time, is what purpose is this anger serving me? When people are holding on to anger about something it's serving. Sometimes they're even romancing this anger, right? They're just so engaged in this anger.
[00:48:39] And so releasing, it means that I've got to find a way, another way to fill it. Like, what am I going to put in its place? And it becomes a very habit for me, for some people. So being able to step outside of that and releasing the anger is one of the key hallmarks of forgiveness, but the first step in forgiveness is really believing it or not as telling your story.
[00:49:02] And sometimes that means telling it to someone outside of the work, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a sponsor of your recovery or whatever, but that is the most important part of this whole process is being able to tell your story, naming the emotions to chain them, and then you're in a space then to walk through the other steps of, to actually practice forgiveness.
[00:49:27] Laura McKowen: What are some of the reasons I've been there many times? What are some of the reasons that we glorify and romanticize, and hold onto our anger?
[00:49:38] Sharon Adams: Yeah. So one thing I think is really important is that we don't know we have an option, right? So as this happened, this offense happened, I've been harmed. I'm supposed to be angry and not knowing what to do next caused us to stay stuck.
[00:49:58] The other thing is that we think that we would get, we're letting them off the hook if we forgive and we don't realize that it's really about nurturing ourselves. When we forgive, it's a self nurturing act. Yes, it does benefit the other person. But bigger than that is it's itself nurturing. And again, it's serving a purpose.
[00:50:24] We don't like to consider that. Because we just feel like it's this cancer. I want to get it out, but then why am I holding onto it so closely? So it's very dichotomous in nature.
[00:50:36] Laura McKowen: It is, it's very sexy in a way or, or seductive rather is a better word to stay in that.
[00:50:44] Sharon Adams: Yeah. Also, anger is a very unusual emotion, if you will. It causes us to feel as if we're doing something about it, because it takes up energy when really nothing is happening, right.
[00:51:03] There isn't any progress because it's so encompassing. It takes up so much of our being and it can be physical in nature. We can cut, we can lose sleep. We can have headaches and belly aches and backaches and I mean, on and on and on. So it really does take up so much of us.
[00:51:23] Laura McKowen: Oh, God, it's so true. It really does make you feel like you're doing something. What are the things, the areas perhaps that you see, people struggle with the most in your work, the areas of harm or hurt or forgiveness, you know, areas that require forgiveness, that, that the themes that you see?
[00:51:43] Sharon Adams: I think that to answer this from a workplace perspective, people have a hard time with emotions and parts. Now this has a lot to do with age because the baby boomers were taught that emotions don't belong in the workplace. Right? There's a door. We don't know what to know, how you feel if I didn't invite you to the happy hour and get over it. I mean, but I think that what's harder though, for people is the whole waste and ethnicity thing in the workplace, racial anxiety is a thing.
[00:52:16] Laura McKowen: What do you mean by racial anxiety?
[00:52:19] Sharon Adams: Thank you for asking that. Um, so it can mean that, I feel this sense of difference around someone and so I act differently around them. I have this anxiety, so I don't treat them the same way I would someone else, because I don't know how, I don't know that I don't understand this ethnicity.
[00:52:37] I don't understand this difference. And so I don't know what to do. So I then withdraw. So I'm less creative in the workplace. I'm less productive in the workplace, particularly around this person, this race, this gender, um, and it creates a sense of anxiety. And that's, I think that's probably one of the biggest ones.
[00:52:57] I think that what's so interesting to me about it is that when you have racial anxiety, you tend to operate opposite to your values. So in other words, your values might be, to be, kind, might be to, um, embrace difference. But then when it comes down to it, the amygdala starts popping up and saying fight flight or freeze and then you do the exact opposite. I'll give an example that is not related to race. But several years ago I went to visit. I went to a meeting in an office, but I had never been there before. And there was this woman behind the desk. And she was probably about, I don't know, maybe six, 700 pounds. And I had never seen anybody that size before in person.
[00:53:45] And I was sitting there and I was staring at her and whatever, she would look up at me, I looked down, I was pretending I was reading a magazine. And then when she looked up, I looked at her again and we exchanged glances back and forth. And suddenly I looked up and my timing was off. And her eyes, when she saw me for the first time I saw her.
[00:54:14] Wow. And that's an example of racial anxiety because I was doing something that is opposite my values. And so I know what it feels like to be stared at. I know what that feels like first hand many times over, but yet I was doing this to her because of this anxiety that I was feeling because she was doing. Because I was operating with my amygdala as opposed to my new cortex and thinking this is a real person and you know, what it feels like to be stared at, Sharon. So that's an example of how racial anxiety can play out. We do things that are very different from our actual values.
[00:55:00] Laura McKowen: And that's the reason why I think it's so important to assume positive intent, because you weren't doing that. You weren't doing that because you were, you thought anything, it was like a curiosity in a negative way.
[00:55:06] Sharon Adams: Just like this person is different. So, that's why I think it's really important to, again, to really crown our lives with assuming positive intent about people.
[00:55:23] Laura McKowen: That's a beautiful example. Thank you for that. So let's close with, we got a question from one of our members. I see myself as a person of high emotional intelligence, but I have to interact and work with someone who is from my point of view of lower EQ and not self-aware. I know it's not my job to fix them, but it is painful and tiring and stressful to not be able to interact with them at a higher level.
[00:55:55] What would you say I do in that situation?
[00:55:58] Sharon Adams: Yeah. And that's really hard. I just want to acknowledge and validate that that is really challenging, but one of the best things you can do is to model high emotional intelligence. Very often when we interact with people who might be considered a toxic personality, we withdraw.
[00:56:18] We're like, oh my gosh, I don't even want to deal with this person. And then if everybody takes that approach, then learning for them, it's really difficult. But we want to draw ourselves in with boundaries and every opportunity we get, we demonstrate high emotional intelligence. And because really, I can teach you how to treat me. I really can do that as a thing, I can teach you how to treat me. And so that's really what needs to happen is just this modeling in a way that's nonjudgmental, that assumes positive intent, that it embraces the fact that we're all on this journey to learn and grow.
[00:57:01] Laura McKowen: That's good. It's hard. That's hard to do. The nuance there.
[00:57:06] Sharon Adams: Just shifting that mindset is a huge nuance because when I'm irritated, I'm frustrated. I think you're. Then my body language is going to show it. And now the person is going to be more toxic because they can sense this energy. Like you don't like me, you don't want to be around me, but when I'm leaning in, when I am modeling good emotional intelligence skills, when I'm generally curious about your life about your work, then that shifting of the brain, that shifting of my actions can actually create an environment to where I could actually teach you how to treat me.
[00:57:47] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Assuming positive intent also comes. Mightily in this type of situation, because you know, it's easy to just assume they're just a crappy person but most of the time, that's just not the case there.
[00:58:04] Sharon Adams: You don't know what's going on with them. I love that, that you said that, wow, I'm going to have to use that. It's easier to make that assumption right now off the hook because you're your idiot. I am finished as opposed to thinking of what creative ways can I demonstrate or can I motto emotional intelligence that takes so much more energy? Doesn't it? Assuming positive intent. So much more energy. So thank you for lifting that up.
[00:58:31] Laura McKowen: Well, this has been, this is wonderful. I'm so grateful that you're in the world doing the work that you're doing. And I have a good amount of awareness of these concepts, especially emotional intelligence, but it's so helpful to think of them in the way that you’re approaching them. I'm really grateful that you're doing the work that you're doing in the world and that you were willing to spend some time with me.
[00:58:57] Sharon Adams: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been a delight.
[00:59:07] Laura McKowen: Laura McKowen: I love that. That seems like as good a place as any to end. Thank you, dear sir. Again, thank you so much. That was great.
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