When Laura got the call to host a SXSW panel called “Front Lines of Addiction: Supporting Recovery in America,” we said, “you have our attention.” When they told us the panel included Jason Isbell, Jan Rader and Wes Hurt, we said, “HELL YES!” Everyone brought so much insight, wisdom and inspiration. There were lots of feels and that very dark humor that is soooo goood. We could’ve gone on for twice as long and still barely scratched the surface.
Wes Hurt is the founder of Sparkling Yerba Mate CLEAN Cause, a beverage company donating 50% of its net profits to funding sober living scholarships; Jason Isbell is a Grammy Award-Winning singer/songwriter; and Jan Rader, Director of the Mayor’s Council on Public Health & Drug Control Policy for Huntington, WV, who was also named to TIME Magazine’s 2018 Top 100 Most Influential List, star of the Emmy Award winning film Heroin(e), first female fire chief, and lead witness in the Landmark Opioid Trial.
Jason Isbell's Instagram
Wes Hurt's Instagram
Jan Rader's Instagram
Official site for Heroin(e) documentary featuring Jan Rader.
TMST Show website.
Spotify playlist for this episode.
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TMST @ SXSW with Jason Isbell, Jan Rader and Wes Hurt
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. Welcome to an episode. We have been dying to share in March. We went down to south by Southwest, where I moderated a conversation with some amazing people on the front lines of addiction. We were excited. We were nervous. It was our first live event for the show, a show that we birthed in the heart of the pandemic.
[00:00:29] So I was actually laughing to myself on the way down to Austin thinking this should have really been called south by south awkward this year. And I'm kind of kicking myself that I didn't actually say that during the event. Uh, anyway, our guests, um, the panel were west hurt, a silver guy. A sober guy, a sober gentlemen, uh, and the founder of clean cause uh, clean causes a beverage company with a triple [00:01:00] bottom line approach that funds sober living scholarships and creates delicious beverages.
[00:01:07] Also, we got to hear from the extraordinary January. Uh, she has been a frontline worker in the toughest parts of the opioid epidemic in Huntington, West Virginia. Uh, she's featured in the Netflix documentary heroin with that E H E R O I N E. It's. Awesome. Watch it. She is wise and humble and compassionate and so, so funny.
[00:01:34] Uh, I learned so much from her in the couple of days we spent together, we went to dinner. Jan was amazing. Um, And then last but not least, we were joined by the musician. Jason is bell who anyone who's been around the show for a while, knows that I am a massive fan, his willingness to share his story, uh, and himself just add so many layers [00:02:00] of complexity and insight into his work.
[00:02:02] And like all the other guests, he totally showed up that day. If you're new to the podcast, we hope you'll check out some other episodes. Tell me something true is a show for everyone who's asking. How can I have a better week this week than I had last year? We talk about recovery. Yes. But really in the broader context of how we can all live more present real and ultimately joyful existence.
[00:02:34] Like the show tagline says we're here for anyone who wants to fall in love with the mystery of life.
[00:02:44] Another thing. I want you to know which we have been absolutely terrible about promoting I should get fired, uh, is that we create playlists for every single episode every week, either Michael or I create a [00:03:00] Spotify playlist to go with the mood of the show. Yes, this happens. You can access those on our website@tmstpod.com under episodes.
[00:03:11] I'm going to start promoting them on social. Why do we do this? Well, one, because we're all big into music here, but really we contain multitudes and arts and music and literature are great ways to go deeper. On the things we explore in this podcast. So it's part of the experience. Plus let's face it.
[00:03:33] Podcasts are cool, but podcasts with playlist are cooler. So head on over to Spotify, uh, you can go to our website, but you can also just go directly to Spotify and search. Tell me something true in playlists and you'll find every single one there. Okay, ready? Let's head down to the big stage at the 2022 south by south.
[00:03:57] Enjoy[00:04:00]
[00:04:13] well, thanks for coming to this session. It's probably not the lightest topic you could come to listen about at south by Southwest, but no. For us, one of the most important, so we're really grateful you're here. And I'm going to start out by doing something maybe a little unconventional for south by. So we're going to breathe for a minute.
[00:04:38] We're going to stop and breathe. So go ahead and let go of your phone in your hand and just set your palms in your lap feet on the floor. Yeah, you guys follow too. And uh, close your eyes. Take a. Huge deep breath and exhale out the mouth so we can hear it.[00:05:00]
[00:05:03] We'll do another one. Inhale
[00:05:08] and exhale. One last one, inhale
[00:05:17] and exhale. That's better. All right. So I'm going to count you all in. So who here would count themselves in as someone in recovery? Raise your hand,
[00:05:32] Wes.
[00:05:37] Wes Hurt: All right. The
[00:05:38] Laura McKowen: watch now, who here has been impacted by addiction either by someone that, you know, work with love, care about raise your hand. Yeah, that's what I thought. All right. And who. I felt like when addiction hit, they had the resources, the empathy, the awareness, the [00:06:00] tools, the knowledge to know exactly what to do.
[00:06:04] That'd be a no, right. So we've got this huge gap in addiction is everywhere. I think literally everyone raised their hands for that second question and we mostly feel helpless about it and clueless about what to do. So that's our starting point. So I'm going to go to west first. What was the most surprising and difficult part about getting sober for you?
[00:06:32] Wes Hurt: Yeah, that's a good question. So much involved in it. Um, I think the most difficult part for me was believing that I could actually change. Um, you know, you had these moments for 20 years. That as the addiction grew, you'd go to a rehab and go to a psych ward, all of the different consequences and get out.
[00:06:53] I have kind of a fleeting moment of like inspiration and then, then I'd be back in the same spot. So I had that [00:07:00] history to know what I had done at least. And so, you know, this, this new sober resolution again, I'm going to get it. And I think for me at the very beginning, the most difficult part was actually believing with conviction and resolve, like within me that like, no, this is real.
[00:07:17] I can do it versus fake it till you make it kind of thing, which is, which is also valuable at times. Um, I think the most surprising thing was after you start to gain a little bit of time and you start to change a little bit inside and starting to. The drugs are getting out of the system. Some neuro receptors, maybe fire one off, a little bit or something, and you're going, oh crap.
[00:07:42] Just two months ago, I was completely frightened about X, Y, or Z. Now I'm completely frightened about X, Y, or Z, but I know that I've grown. So then you start to realize like, this truly is a journey. There is no destination because when I got there, I was like, okay. Oh crap. So now what [00:08:00] else do I not know?
[00:08:01] Well, seven years now. Same thing. Wow. These new revelations that come in place that you just, you had heard about, but surprisingly, they happened to you and then you go, oh, that's what they meant.
[00:08:16] Laura McKowen: Yeah. What made the difference? That last time
[00:08:21] Wes Hurt: I've for me, it was a, it was an honesty. I would say that the best way for me to explain it. It was me and a mirror for the first time. I wasn't leveraging manipulating or looking at others to hold onto one person, to be resentful towards, to continue to feed it or to rationalize my use. Um, and having that level set.
[00:08:41] And I've said this before, which was in a state of limbo of not wanting to live and not wanting to. And then, you know, really looking at that mirror and go, and do you have the power now on your own to choose it's your life? So I think it was really the recognition and the isolation between myself and die.[00:09:00]
[00:09:00] If that makes any sense of saying, dude, who are you? Who do you want to be? Do you want to live on this planet? Get level set with yourself. And so for me, it that's how it happened. It was. I contemplated dying and suicide is what it looked like for me. And I just said, no, and I got two baby boys, you know?
[00:09:23] And so,
[00:09:29] Laura McKowen: alright, Jason, what do you think is the most, the thing that people most misunderstand about.
[00:09:37] Wes Hurt: Well, you know, there are a
[00:09:38] Jason Isbell: whole lot of reasons not to take debt first step. And I mean, I think the stigma around, you know, addicted people are broken in some way or flawed in some way. Um, that concept is. I think a lot of people still hold, you know, because I think we have this natural tendency [00:10:00] to try to separate ourselves from other people to generate some sort of self worth.
[00:10:03] So it's, it's another reason to think, well, I'm doing all right. I'm better than this guy. He's an addict, you know? Um, and I think that does a lot of bad work as far as encouraging people to get sober because, you know, oftentimes when you're an addict, it's this sort of. Self fulfilling prophecy of, you know, I'm a bad person, so I do bad things.
[00:10:24] So I go do a bad thing and then I feel like I'm a bad person, so I'll make another bad decision and on and on and on. And I think what I didn't understand early on in the process, um, and, and still am learning more and more about, but especially in the last couple years, I really, I realized that not only was the recovery.
[00:10:44] A gift in my particular situation, but the addiction itself was a gift because without that, I would have never learned the lessons that I learned in recovery and, you know, whatever, whatever type of, of recovery you, you subscribed to, [00:11:00] uh, you know, there's kind of the golden rule. Of recovery programs, which is this remaining in the moment, you know, when I was in rehab, they would say, keep your head and your ass in the same place.
[00:11:13] And you know, it's, it's the one day at a time saying and never in my life have I needed that more than when every day was identical to the one before it, like it was for the last couple of years when I was sitting in my house with my family, not doing my job. And it just occurred to me one day. Had I never been an addict in the first place.
[00:11:33] I never would have learned. Uh, the things that I needed right now, you know, and I might've lost my shit, but the fact that I'd gone through the recovery process, uh, gave me some tools. I think, you know, it's not a matter of you being a broken person and needing to get fixed. It's a matter of, you know, there's this box of.
[00:11:55] That are available to you in a very special way and the way you learn them as a way that [00:12:00] sticks, if you go through the recovery process and get better. Um, and then you're going to have tools that people who were never an addict in the first place never had access to.
[00:12:10] Laura McKowen: What is one of your, your big
[00:12:12] Jason Isbell: tools?
[00:12:14] Well, the awareness is everything for me. And, and at first it felt like rawness, you know, I was telling somebody last night, it that the first year or two or three or four, especially that first year after I got sober, you know, I F I felt like I didn't have any skin on my body. You know, it was like, everything was, was bright and terrifying and the senses were heightened.
[00:12:39] And, uh, you know, it was, it was a scary thing, but I learned, uh, how to shift my perspective. You know, based on how aware I was of what was going on around me. And I think a lot of my particular version of addiction was for the purpose of numbing, that awareness. And, uh, you know, when I found out I didn't need to do that, [00:13:00] even as bad as the world can be.
[00:13:01] It's, it's sometimes a really beautiful place if you're just paying attention.
[00:13:05] Laura McKowen: Yeah. That's great. Thanks. All right, Jan, so. Uh, I want to talk about your role as I have to look at my notes because it's quite long director of mayor's council on public health and drug control policy in Huntington, West Virginia.
[00:13:22] So those for those who may not know Jan's community in Huntington is one of the hardest hit communities, uh, in the opioid crisis. It's estimated that about half a million Americans have died of overdose. Of opioid overdose since the pharmaceutical company started pumping out pills, uh, in the late nineties and in Jan's hometown, this statistic just astonished me 81 million pills have been sent into her community.
[00:13:54] And the community is only 91,000 people. So I'll say it again. 81 million [00:14:00] pills went to 91,000 people. I can't get my head around that. Uh, one in 10 people in her community suffer from opioid addiction and 2,500 children have been born estimated with problems, developmental problems related to opiod addiction.
[00:14:19] So Jan, uh, served on the, was a fire chief for Huntington, uh, and served at the, as, um, at the fire. What the hell do you call it? Well, no, I know that what I'm thinking like the fires, I was a firefighter
[00:14:36] Jan Rader: for 20 or a firefighter for 20 years,
[00:14:39] Laura McKowen: 27, 27 years. And so she's been really on the frontline of this opiod crisis for a long time.
[00:14:46] So how have the gaps in the understanding that we're talking about? There's like this empathy gap, how have these gaps shaped the way that. Community has responded to and [00:15:00] suffered from what is essentially a mass casualty event in your community? Yes,
[00:15:04] Jan Rader: it is. And it continues. We've had success in Huntington.
[00:15:08] People like to call us the epicenter of the opioid epidemic, but I feel like we're the epicenter of the solution. And. Uh, have strive very hard to make sure that we find the gaps and we fill the gaps. And when we started working on the problem that we have, we had, we have mayor Williams, who is an incredible person who is leading the fight.
[00:15:36] He is doing the right thing, or city council is doing the right thing and allowing. To go out and facilitate bringing everybody together in the community. And it's taken a lot of education, a lot of education in very small groups. The faith community has been huge in helping us, but every day we find gaps.
[00:15:55] Our peak was 2017. And, um, you know, the first thing [00:16:00] we did in Huntington was get Naloxone in the hands of all our first responders so that they can save lives in the moment. And that was huge. And then we started the first harm reduction program in the state of West Virginia. 2015. And uh, every time we find a gap, we tried to fill it as best we can.
[00:16:21] We peaked in 2017 and that year we had 1,831 overdoses in the. And, uh, there were 183 overdose deaths that year. So your first responders are worn out. Your average, first responder in that year was probably seeing up to five deaths in a month. And we're up to that. And that wears on everybody, your first responders, your health care facilities and your community.
[00:16:52] So we took down the silos were. Partnerships, uh, we're involving the [00:17:00] community. We're educating people. Our first year, 2018, our overdoses were down 40%. Uh, they've continued to go down and we went up a little bit with, um, uh, with the pandemic, you know, so we need to get back out there and back at it as hard as we can, but stigma is the number one barrier that we have.
[00:17:20] And, uh, we will. Do everything in our power to, to get around that barrier and, you know, change the perception out there. These are good people that have a medical condition and we need to turn the tide and how.
[00:17:38] Wes Hurt: Can, can I just say one thing to that? You know, one thing that I really loved that I heard Jane say once, and it revolved around Narcan and Naloxone and there's debate over that.
[00:17:48] And in some folks will say that it's enabling people to continue to do, uh, to do drugs. And sh I heard her say, yeah, it enables people to breathe. And I was like, [00:18:00] wow. It was that simple for me because I look at my life and I say, look, I was ready to off myself in a cemetery for nine months. I got two babies that I get to go fishing with tomorrow morning because I could breathe.
[00:18:12] And so, you know, at some point we can simplify this to say, this is about life and death for these people. And we're going to argue over something that enables them to breathe. I just want to say that up over the top, because that made it real for me.
[00:18:27] Laura McKowen: Thanks. Yeah.
[00:18:28] Jason Isbell: Yeah. Food, food and water also enable people to continue
[00:18:34] Laura McKowen: that
[00:18:34] Jan Rader: controversial.
[00:18:36] Laura McKowen: Strange. Yeah. I need water and I need to breathe. Uh, thanks, Wes. So I think of the Johann Hari quote, who you may have heard or may have heard before is, which is sobriety. The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, but connection and. Shame keeps people disconnected. Uh, how have [00:19:00] you worked to address the shame that the individuals feel who have been afflicted by this.
[00:19:07] Jan Rader: So F so for me, you know, I was not only working on as a firefighter on a firetruck, but I was also working as a nurse on my days off in a busy ER. And, you know, we have to change the way that we approach people. Okay. So at Jason right here, overdoses, and I start rubbing his sternum and smacking him in the face, you know, and I give him Naloxone when he wakes up.
[00:19:32] He's going to be startled because there's strangers, probably three or four big thud guys standing over him that are firefighters and he's going to be stunned and he's ashamed. Okay. So, and I'm going to say you could a die, do you, you know, you, you overdosed. Okay. So then he's. Mad at me because he feels like I'm shaming him and then he's probably going to cuss me.
[00:19:54] And then I'm going to be mad because he's ungrateful that I just saved his freaking life. Okay. [00:20:00] So that is a very bad dialogue. We got to change that dialogue. What if I held his hand and said, honey, are you okay? Do you remember what happened? We want to get you some help. Okay. Now do first responders do that.
[00:20:13] They think he's a bad guy. No, they're frustrated because they're losing their classmates, their friends, and we have to teach them a different way to approach those. But we have to work on the whole community doing that, but keep in mind also that your first responder is not ready to accept that message unless you show appreciation for them.
[00:20:36] And we are trying to do that in Huntington. We're trying to appreciate our first responders and help them. With the trauma that they see day in, day out.
[00:20:46] Laura McKowen: Yeah. One of the most touching parts of your documentary, it's called heroin with an E it's on Netflix. Jan is, is the heroin in it. And one of the things that struck me the most was the way you talked to [00:21:00] people as they were coming out of a overdose,
[00:21:02] Jan Rader: we want them to live.
[00:21:04] We don't want them to die. You know, in anything somebody says a lot of times it's out of fresh. Right. And I get it. I get it.
[00:21:12] Laura McKowen: Yeah. So what levers are you focused on to help people work together in the community? You just touched on a little bit of this, but to sort of narrow the distance between the individuals who are affected by the addiction and the, and the rest of the community, because it's, we are connected.
[00:21:28] It's all part of the same fabric. So how, what do you, what levers you pull to get. To, to shorten that
[00:21:34] Jan Rader: distance. One of the biggest things that we started was a quick response team and it's run out of, out of Cabo county EMS. And after somebody overdoses within 72 hours, they are visited by a team of people they're visited by a paramedic, somebody in recovery, who's a mental health worker, an undercover police officer and they faith leader.
[00:21:56] And they go to them, they knock on the door and they say, Hey. [00:22:00] We revived you the other day. We don't want you to die. We want to share with you what is available for you. And, uh, it's been very successful about 30% of the people that they find are taking them up on that. And now we're, we're trying to expand that as well.
[00:22:17] Uh, so you don't have to overdose to be reached by this team. Uh, this is growing in West Virginia. There, we have these teams all over the state now, and they're all over the country now. So.
[00:22:29] Laura McKowen: All right, we're going to go back to Jason and Wes. So how did shame play a role in your addiction? Do you still experience it now in sobriety?
[00:22:40] Jan Rader: And if so, how do you shame
[00:22:42] Jason Isbell: whatsoever now? Your shame-free it's a wonder I got on pants right now.
[00:22:51] I'm sorry. I interrupted myself.
[00:22:59] Laura McKowen: Well now [00:23:00] you're ashamed. No. Um, okay. So do you, do you experience shamans in sobriety and if so, how. How do you work with it and
[00:23:08] Jason Isbell: start with Jason? Yeah. You know, it's a human emotion. I think we all have it. Uh, but it's, it's a lot less frequent now. Usually I'm able to redirect it at this point into, oh, there's something that I need to learn, you know?
[00:23:22] And it hurts the older you get, the more it hurts to learn. But, um, yeah, early on, it was one of the things that fueled the part of me that wanted to keep you. Um, and there were, so there were so many of those and they're, they're tricky, you know, I didn't know that that's what was happening. I thought, well, um, um, when people liked me, because I'm entertaining, I'm creative, I'm funny.
[00:23:48] I have a, you know, all these, this list of things and I thought all these things are directly related. Uh, to be using drugs and alcohol. And if I stopped doing those things, who will I be then, you know, [00:24:00] I'll be a completely different person. People won't want to hang out with me. I won't want, won't know what to do with my time.
[00:24:05] I won't be funny anymore, you know? Um, uh, but then there would come these big waves of, you know, shame and, and, and, you know, I kind of differentiate guilt and shame because I think guilt is more of a. Awareness, uh, and shame is more of a reflection on how you're viewed, but yeah, they see me as bad. I think it's shame I'm, I'm behaving badly is guilt, you know, and I think the guilt can be very good for you.
[00:24:35] You're supposed to feel that, but the shame is based on some external, uh, force, you know, that. I think a part of my problem at that point in time. Part of the reason that I got so far into my addiction, uh, was the fact that I was so concerned with what everybody else thought about me. But then once I started the recovery process, um, it [00:25:00] became obvious to me that those things were very much, they were parlor tricks, you know, and the addiction is not very smart.
[00:25:07] It's. But it's not very smart. It's a, it's a con man, but it's not like a, not like a high level, big business. Yeah, no, no. It's like a, you know, it's like a Southern Senator.
[00:25:23] So once you see through it, then it becomes pretty clear that, oh, that was. You know, there's a part of my brain that wants to keep using that was telling me to feel this shame and telling me not to feel the guilt, to feel the shame, you know, and that was also telling me, you know, while you're your creative work, that all comes from.
[00:25:43] You know, you're using drugs and alcohol and the romanticizing of it. Well, I mean, Hemingway, blah, blah, blah, blah, all these kinds of things that, that are really pretty dumb tricks. When you get on the other side, turn around and look back at them. You're like, w why, first of all, why would I, why would I [00:26:00] even aspire to be any of these people?
[00:26:01] Why is myself not good enough? And, and second of all, that's not what was cool about them. That's what was disgusting about their life choices. But it's, it's, it's a sneaky trick. And, and, and, you know, after I saw that it was a trick, it was like, oh, no, shame is supposed to be a accountability. You know, it's supposed to be a personal thing where you learn how to learn about yourself.
[00:26:28] Did
[00:26:29] Laura McKowen: you find, I mean, I think we know the punchline because your career has gone on and, and you continue to create, but what was that like initially in sobriety trials? Great music.
[00:26:43] Jason Isbell: Um, it was hard to do it in front of people at first, you know, the first show that I played, I went out and opened for somebody, um, in Australia.
[00:26:52] And I was just playing by myself, solo, acoustic, and it was this big theater full of people. And, you know, I was terrified. [00:27:00] I was so because I hadn't performed sober, you know, since I was a kid really, but after a while, I just started making my world smaller and, uh, and. That found well, instead of speaking to those folks back there, you know, I spoke to these folks right here and just made sure that it was loud enough where everybody would hear, you know, and reduce the size of the room to the size of the stage.
[00:27:26] And, and I did that about a lot of things in my life, you know? Uh, sort of, uh, uh, a safety mechanism for me, but it really helped because it helped me notice, you know, on, on a bigger, like broader sort of allegorical level. It made me notice what I had right in front of me, the things that I'd been looking past as an addict, you know, to get to some sort of grandiose idea or goal of loving.
[00:27:53] I looked past the things that I should be grateful for. And, and once you start counting, you know, if you start like [00:28:00] right here and start counting the reasons that you're fortunate, you know, you're, it's, it's going to take you hours to get to the edge of that stage, you know? Um, and once I started doing that, my creative work picked up a lot because, you know, I had a story to tell that resonated with people.
[00:28:18] And I think one of the primary goals. Those songs that I was riding in those days was to break down that sort of barrier of, of distinction between addicts and non-addicts, you know, and it was like, I wanted to show people, you know, I, I I'm just like you guys and I was just like you, and I'm still just like you, I just had to go through this process for all of us to realize it and feel like a community
[00:28:44] Laura McKowen: again.
[00:28:44] Yeah. Wes shame in your addiction, how to keep you
[00:28:50] Wes Hurt: stuck. I mean, I agree with him. No, I'm good. Nope. Um, you know, I really relate to the idea of when you said the word [00:29:00] fuel into fueling, um, you know, the cycle, it's a shame cycle. You know, to me, he really did answer most of the things that I relate to in. So one thing I just wanted to call out was, you know, I think the shame and we speak about the person being woken up after, you know, being revived and in shock, but also the shame that, that, that carries.
[00:29:22] And I look at like the actions I had and, um, maybe some of the. So when one little story really quickly, I had, um, one of our employees, um, relapsed and he hit it hard and heroin meth on that weekend. And he called me on a Sunday and he said, I'm done, dude. I'm a. And he goes, I need to put my resignation and I go, why?
[00:29:46] And he goes, well, because I relapsed. And I said, oh, hell no, I go. I'm not about to make it that easy for you. I go, I'll see you tomorrow. Can you just say that you're not going to do it today and you'll be there tomorrow. That guy left, um, [00:30:00] uh, last week after two years sober now to go off to another job, um, to me, what it spoke to was the grace in a moment of what I call the con the bounce.
[00:30:11] Um, we focus so much on the fall and relapse in this thing of time that now we've lost something. If we had an ears and we relapsed like all that beautiful stuff that happened is still there. And so why do we put so much emphasis on the day when we also know that we're in perfect humans? And so when I look like I've changed my deal, like I'm not sitting there crying about the relapse, I'm focused and excited about the bounce back.
[00:30:35] And
[00:30:35] Jason Isbell: so to me,
[00:30:41] Wes Hurt: to me, the goal should be run to those people, run to them and show them a radical compassion, because I also believe compassion and accountability can coexist. And I think oftentimes we look at those as binary and it's not, um, we're not saying let them keep using, we're not saying let's fill up the needle.[00:31:00]
[00:31:01] Let's give him a chance to breathe. Let's give them a chance to love again, because we're not that indifferent. We're really not. You know, I think one thing I'd like to mention too, that revolves around stigma is that, you know, I like to say that addiction is just my flavor of life's affliction, but there are people out there and I won't point at you to make you feel too guilty.
[00:31:20] So I'll go to the back where nobody is. I'll say you watch too much porn. You eat too much. You do X, you do this, but it's not that socially unacceptable because it's behind closed doors. We walk out and no one can relate to us. Bullshit. You can. It's just not the same affliction. It's not the same flavor, but we all have the same human reactions and so forth.
[00:31:43] And our reactions and our, and our results or consequences are so much more open to the world. That the attention on that, that draws is crazy, which by the way, I'm not a victim. Okay. Um, I I'm someone who takes responsibility for my [00:32:00] life now, and I'm very grateful for that. But again, I just wanted to say out loud, I think it's really important to say again, this is not about the
[00:32:07] Jason Isbell: fall.
[00:32:08] It's about the bounce back. Yeah. That's where it happens. Yeah.
[00:32:11] Laura McKowen: Well said. All right. Another question for you too. So we've mentioned in various, uh, various places. I think Jason just talked about this idea that. Uh, if you get sober, you're going to be an outcast. You're going to be other, you're not going to be part of polite society anymore or, uh, belong anywhere.
[00:32:33] And so it keeps us from, from changing, but there are these major forces that are in place that really wants things to stay the same. Um, I'm just going to talk about some of them, alcohol sales went drastically up in the pandemic. Jan talked about how they had, you know, more drug use in the pandemic. But aside from that, $250 billion in the United States on alcohol every year, which is, [00:33:00] and nine, a shocking 9% of those.
[00:33:04] The use of alcohol is for those under 21. Well, 9%. So almost 10%. So let's talk about how we help ourselves. Let's talk about the solution, how we help ourselves and each other in this culture, that's kind of optimized for addiction. The less we are. Let's just take alcohol, which is very normalized, kind of swimming in it.
[00:33:26] What kinds of things did you have to do to make sobriety your normal?
[00:33:33] Wes Hurt: I mean, I think there's, there's practical variables, you know, uh, For me, it was removing beer from my fridge that was ice cold. It's real basic. It's like, I don't know if I'm strong enough yet to look at that. Huh? Yeah. So there's people, places and things let's say.
[00:33:48] Right. And so that's more of your practical side. And then on the philosophical side for me, it's, it's like, I'm going to say in this kind of cliche, and I don't want to sound like this guy, but I'm going to have to say it. Uh, it's about [00:34:00] purpose and so I can stop something for X period of time. Nope. I say no problem, but when I'm actually on the path to do it, the question is what, what is my north star to keep moving forward?
[00:34:13] Why? And it's not about starting a 50% company, so you can act like the sober profit and save the world or, or play music. And then you get more grant and no fence when you get to still get them anyway. Um, but you know, I'm saying it's about, you know, my why, and you've heard about that. We all you've seen it.
[00:34:30] And so if you don't have a person. Who cares about being away from the people, places and things, because it will not sustain. You need a north star. And, um, for me, it, it became such a clear north star and kind of piggybacking on what he said, it's a fricking blessing. You don't get, you know, you don't get addicted so I can realize my greatest.
[00:34:55] I'm an entrepreneur. I always wanted to be. I just didn't think it was going to be this way. I'm like, what the hell? [00:35:00] Bad ass. Like he said, you have an acute awareness. I think of it as a boy. Because we're being rocked to this point of your existence and you're like, oh shit, everybody else running this way with no offense to the normies.
[00:35:13] And I'm sorry, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say normies, but anyway, like they're going on spring break, they're doing the things like this and that's cool. My life's been ness, but then I go, oh, now I get the field. Is this much greater? Because I've been there. The contrast is what makes it a much more meaningful and powerful.
[00:35:30] And so. To me. I, it's not bullshit. When I say I'm blessed beyond belief to have been given the gift of addiction, you know, because it's the recovery now. I want to live in like rock and roll. I really do. And it's given me such purpose that I don't find shame or embarrassment by. Um, I'm happy to tell my kids.
[00:35:52] I smoked crack and pop 35 bike and in a day and was going to maybe kill myself, not because of that part, but because of the bounce back, because [00:36:00] that's where character build. That's where we saw we live, find out what we're made of, you know? And so to me, as long as I can stay on that side of the light, And, you know, when I pass, look at my kids, go, my daddy smoked crack when he bounced back, I'm like, bad-ass, I'm cool with that.
[00:36:16] You know, I'm not sure if he wants that kind of pitch from their son, but I'm cool with it. I don't know if he's going to be cool with it,
[00:36:22] Jason Isbell: but know it's a strange eulogy.
[00:36:28] True. True. My dad was many sayings cracking it.
[00:36:36] Wes Hurt: Okay. I'll pull up. I'll pull off of that a little bit then maybe give me a new perspective,
[00:36:40] Laura McKowen: Jason. So the alcohol's a big part of the live music economy. What message do you have for people that can't put themselves in a bubble?
[00:36:54] Jason Isbell: Yeah. I mean, there was a while there, when [00:37:00] people would say like right after I got sober, people would say, oh, and you're a musician that must've been so hard, you know?
[00:37:06] And, uh, then I was like, well, what do you do for a living? You know? And they were like, well, I'm a. And was like, oh, well, what do you do when you get off work? I get fucked up. I think I would be in a lot more danger if I had a job that I didn't love, first of all. Um, so I'm very fortunate to be able to do something that's that rewarding and to have like a creative outlet.
[00:37:29] Um, I mean the music business, just like any other business is really it's about generating revenue and it. You know, the marriage of the music business and the creative process. It's not my favorite thing in the world, but I've discovered at some point that, you know, if, if, if you're a little better at the business, you get to be more creative.
[00:37:48] So we, we participate, you know, um, but. You know what I did, I was lucky enough to be surrounded by really good people who cared about me and, [00:38:00] and saw some type of potential in me and just voluntarily made some changes in their lives to make it an easier thing for me to do. But the time is going to come.
[00:38:10] Even if you have a bubble, the time is going to come. When you have to go out. You know, and you can't be this sort of like psychological agoraphobic where you, where you saying, well, I can't go there or I can't do this, or I can't be in that situation. So I started making kind of rules for myself early on, you know, if I was going to go see a friend's band play, I had this two hour limit.
[00:38:31] I know two hours in a bar is all that I can handle. And then I leave, you know, um, but, but ultimately. I think this, the thing that, that saved me more than anything else was perspective in those situations, I'm thinking, you know, well, I'm here and this situation is stressful to me. And it's something that could potentially trigger me.
[00:38:53] Uh, so how do I shift my perspective in a way to think, you know, what would be worse? It's just such a great place to [00:39:00] start with everything like this sucks really bad. But what would be worse? And after a while you come up with this very long list of things, that would be so much worse and you're like, okay, this doesn't really suck at all.
[00:39:12] This is actually, I'm actually grateful to be in this situation because there are so many things that would be worse. Um, and that, that helped me a great deal. But I think that there's this proactive energy that you have to bring to your own psychological health and. I know. I mean, everything we say is, uh, is subjective, you know, because there are people in situations where it's harder to access any of the things that we're talking about.
[00:39:39] There's always somebody who cannot do the thing that you think they should be doing. You know, th th that's not an option for them. However, with all of that in parentheses, I think it's a responsibility of an adult to take proactive steps toward, you know, uh, uh, become. More mentally healthy and [00:40:00] mentally stable.
[00:40:01] And that a big shocker for me was, you know, after I got sober, I was sober for a year or so. You know, then I started working on myself, you know, that's when I started working on myself, that was when I began the process of learning, how to feel my emotions and to express my emotions in a way that didn't harm the people around, you know, And so, you know, 10 years in, I'm still way over here in the beginner section of how to be a human being.
[00:40:32] But after you work on it for a while, you start to go, oh, maybe this is the point. Maybe this is why I'm here. It's this, this process. And, you know, you talked about how it was a journey. Um, and it, it is a journey, but it's, it's more like a, like, like it's just the whole point to me is this experience of trying to figure out, you know, what am I doing?
[00:40:54] Uh, to hold myself back. And then as you do that work and keep on [00:41:00] whether it's some kind of therapy or, you know, just as simple as the people that you keep around you, you know, you start to get this instinct where you know, this person's good for me. This person is going to help me stay on the path that I'm on or this person's not.
[00:41:13] And really, sometimes it's about making those decisions rather than allowing them to make them say,
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[00:43:01] Laura McKowen: We're going to do questions in the last 15 minutes. So I'm just going to end with one question for all three of you feel, answer what is one thing that we could be doing folks out here to support someone in recovery, which is how we support recovery in America. What would we do?
[00:43:24] Jan Rader: That's simple for me. You know that it's, it's free.
[00:43:29] Just be kind to somebody, you, um, treat people with dignity and respect because we all deserve it.
[00:43:39] Jason Isbell: I think, um, depend on the. You know, when people call me and they say, my son or my dad, or my wife or my husband that they're struggling, uh, they just got out of rehab. You know, they need to know what to do. First thing I do, as I say, I'm not qualified to tell you that, but my [00:44:00] advice is depend on that person for some, take the risk of saying, I need you for.
[00:44:07] Because you can support people and you can tell them I'm there for you all day long. And that sometimes just enables them to keep using, because they're like this person's going to be there for me, whether I screw it up or not, but I'll give him a chore. I'll give him a task, something that's really important to me.
[00:44:23] I'll be like, I need you to watch my kid on Wednesday afternoon. And yeah, this is a risk, but if you want to help somebody, you got to go out there on a limb a little bit, you know, and. Over, you know, over time trying this out, I've seen that when people feel like they're needed and they're necessary in your life, they'll work a little bit harder to stay on the right path.
[00:44:44] That's really
[00:44:44] Laura McKowen: good. Less.
[00:44:48] Wes Hurt: What was the question? Sorry. I get scatterbrained start thinking about stuff.
[00:44:53] Laura McKowen: What's one thing, one thing that I remembered we could do to support people
[00:44:57] Wes Hurt: in recovery, you know, I [00:45:00] think in the same way that I look at, like, So my sister is a struggling addict and she's actually had a recent relapse has been gnarly, but I think there's empathy.
[00:45:12] That is me towards one of the one person just looking at them in that. And then there's like getting in their shoes, empathy. And so someone, you know, I have a friend who has cerebral palsy and, um, I've always felt like I had no even reason to ever be able to bitch around. This is the truth. And, uh, but when I put myself in his shoes and I'd heard some of his perspectives to me or something that I didn't agree with initially, I'm like, what the hell I can go run in today?
[00:45:41] And I'm like, what? So to me, it's like, you know, based in compassion, but he's getting education about the perspective, even if you don't agree with the perspective it's having at least a proper understanding of what they believe either on drugs or when they're in recovery. If you genuinely want to try to help [00:46:00] in the same way that I should try to understand what is the lifespan of my buddy and how can I, uh, increase his quality of life with the gifts I have, that he doesn't feel different when he's with me doing whatever.
[00:46:13] Yeah, because legs are not the matter of it. And so to me, I, again, just try to get a perspective or an awareness of what that person could be in, regardless of the solutions or variables you think contributed to it. Or didn't, if you're sincerely wanting. And I, but I think that's a human thing. I don't think it's addictions is just a laid out over everything.
[00:46:36] You know, this person's hyper and as add, because they ate Skittles or they came out that way, don't know why don't you think what it would be like if you eat them on a scale? No, I try to keep it kind of practical. Yeah. So,
[00:46:50] Laura McKowen: all right. We're gonna, I don't know where the Skittles
[00:46:53] Wes Hurt: came from. Yeah, well,
[00:46:55] Jason Isbell: I like Skittles.
[00:46:57] Laura McKowen: We're going to. Go to some [00:47:00] questions. So this is for Jan at a local government level. It's hard to track progress and impact. So to know what's working. How do you know when things are getting better and why?
[00:47:12] Jan Rader: So, one of the first things we did when we started working diligently on the addiction issue in Huntington, that was in the fall of 2014, is we built our own method of keeping real time data instead of waiting two years for vetted data to come out of the CDC.
[00:47:30] And that was imperative because that way we can track what's going on. What we need to do, how we need to maneuver to catch what we're not catching and to track progress. And we have built that on a local level and it takes collaboration and partnerships where we're blessed in Huntington that we have Marshall university.
[00:47:51] They've been on board since day one. We have two level two trauma centers. They're on board. We have a great mental. Facility that's on [00:48:00] board. And then we built things that we needed, like a freestanding facility where people can go and get help within two hours, whether they have insurance or not, instead of waiting four hours or, uh, saying, oh, well, we'll have an opening in a month.
[00:48:16] Right?
[00:48:17] Laura McKowen: So it's a
[00:48:17] community
[00:48:17] Jan Rader: project. It's a community. It takes us all. We all need to be involved.
[00:48:23] Laura McKowen: We'll do this. One for, oh, it's skipped. Okay. How do you support someone? Very close to you? Romantic or friendship going through recovery without letting it destroy you or worry you Jason.
[00:48:37] Jason Isbell: Okay. Ooh, I'll get a tough one.
[00:48:38] That's a tough one, huh? Yeah. You know what the best for you, Jason, you gotta have boundaries. You gotta have boundaries. And uh, I think the best thing that you can do for somebody you care. Who is in recovery, uh, is, is get your own shit together and keep it together and, and, and get some kind of, I think [00:49:00] everybody should be in therapy.
[00:49:01] I've never met a personality. I never in my life, nobody no past like the age of 10 therapy time. Um, yeah, but, uh, you know, you're either in diapers or you're in therapy. Um, but no, I think the best thing you can do is work on yourself and you know, you're going to love that person. You're going to love them, maybe what they might do enough to keep you from loving them eventually.
[00:49:24] But probably what you're going to do is you're going to love them despite their choices. And, uh, you need to figure out how to put your own boundaries, right? You know where you can say, well, I'll do this, but I won't do that. You know, I won't let you encroach on this part of me. Uh, and it's a hard, it's a hard, that's a hard thing.
[00:49:43] That's one of the hardest situations in the world. You know, I, I, I had a close family member that had some trouble with opioids, uh, a few years ago, you know, and their wife came, came to me and said, you know what happens if, if they. [00:50:00] Beat this. And I said, well, you know, they're going to die, but, but the worst part of it is when they die, you'll be glad that.
[00:50:07] You know, because by that time you'll be so tired of it, that there will be relief, you know? Um, but there's another way. And that that person got clean, got sober and has stayed that way for years. Um, so it is possible, but you have to set your own boundaries as somebody who cares about them or else you're just, you're just, you know, going down with the ship sometimes.
[00:50:29] And it's, it's a sad reality, but you know, you can help without, without linking your. That's
[00:50:35] Laura McKowen: a good way to put it, linking your fate. Jan, take this one since. I have been on the front lines for so long. What is the biggest myth about addiction that you want to dispel? You
[00:50:45] Jan Rader: know, th th that these people are broken or morally bankrupt.
[00:50:50] I mean, that's, that's ridiculous. It's a, it's a medical condition and it should not be criminalized. It should be treated as a medical condition. And, uh, you know, we, the drug war [00:51:00] and the war on drugs for 50 years has taught us that, oh, through bad people, that's not the case. These are good people and they do recover and they are.
[00:51:09] Good people. And we need to give them the ability to show that to us and shine and be the best person that they can be.
[00:51:18] Laura McKowen: Yeah.
[00:51:22] All right, Wes, what can we do in the schools? You have kids, what would you like to see to help the students who are struggling with possible addiction?
[00:51:35] Wes Hurt: To me. I have a great mentor. He's taught me to look at root cause. So in, even in that, in that setting, when they're younger, instead of looking at the leaves of the tree, look at the roots, what do you feed in it?
[00:51:50] What's going on there. And I think too often we do look at the leaf and you say, look at all of them. They're everywhere. So many stop right here. [00:52:00] Is there. Divorced and the family or wherever it's happening, um, you know, that could be contributing to emotional stuff. So that's one part of it. Now that's one part of my opinion.
[00:52:11] And then the second one is like, so now how do you come around someone so young and so early in on the process of, you know, honestly, you know, I don't exactly know because it's. That's part of the reason I'm doing what I'm doing is to be a part of the solution to try to figure this out because it's so, it's so dynamic and the variables that contribute to it, it's on an individual level, but I think from a philosophical or from a solution oriented mentality, to try to like, take some of the subjective and try to narrow it down.
[00:52:47] To be individually helping, you know, based on what their flavors are, what's happening in their life. It's about identifying root cause. Yeah. Cause that's no, the problem you can not make the right
[00:52:58] Jason Isbell: solution. Yeah. [00:53:00]
[00:53:00] Laura McKowen: You looked at me. Jan, do you have ideas? I
[00:53:02] Jan Rader: think that he, he hit the nail on the head. You got to get to the.
[00:53:05] Okay. And you do that. We, you know, our school systems where I live, we're putting social workers in every school building. Okay. And mindfulness is being developed to teach at the young age because you know, the youngest overdose I've ever been on as a firefighter was 12. The oldest was 78 and they were both.
[00:53:27] So we've got to, we got to prevention is key because the children are our future.
[00:53:33] Wes Hurt: Well, I'd say one other thing socially, you look at folks like stars like Jason, like it's fucking cool to be sober. You
[00:53:41] Jason Isbell: know what it is. Yeah.
[00:53:43] Wes Hurt: It's not just to say, cause I want to be cool that, and I need you to know that I said I'm sober and I'm cool.
[00:53:48] No, it's
[00:53:49] Jan Rader: that makes me the coolest person in this, in this we're in right now because I'm on the stage with three people in long-term recovery. And I couldn't be more proud.[00:54:00]
[00:54:03] Laura McKowen: When does Jason, you can take this one cause maybe you can talk about your. Experience. When does recreational use become an addiction?
[00:54:14] Jason Isbell: You're asking. Yeah. No, that's my answer is quit and then you'll know.
[00:54:19] Jan Rader: So
[00:54:23] Laura McKowen: that's actually
[00:54:23] Jason Isbell: a good answer. Wow. Well, I've got, I've got a friend who writes operas and somebody asked him one time, how long did it take to write that? And he said, purple. Yeah, that is that. If you're asking that question, you know, you just start and if you think maybe, maybe my, my recreational use is not recreational use anymore, then quit.
[00:54:46] Well, why not? You know, and see if you can, and maybe for a year, I don't know, maybe for two years, not for like a week or a day, but right. If you're wondering about it, just stop, stop using you don't need it, you know? Yeah. [00:55:00]
[00:55:01] Laura McKowen: That's actually a great answer. Try it out. See what happens. Try it out. We'll do one more.
[00:55:10] Addiction has been, and is now prominent in my family. This is coming from the audience. The abuse of trust and love has divided us all. Is there hope for recovery when they burn every bridge? Why don't you take that?
[00:55:23] Jan Rader: Yes. And I, my opinion watching this unfold before my eyes and being involved in it is that this person right here is not the only person that needs the therapy.
[00:55:38] Okay. The whole family needs to be healed and that trust can only be rebuilt through time, but everybody needs to heal. The person suffering from addiction is not the only person. If, if, if you need help to deal with it, I feel strongly that we should have a home health model of, [00:56:00] of recovery where a therapist not only goes in and works with a person suffering from substance use disorder, but they work with the family members as well to cut, to cut down on this triggers in us.
[00:56:11] So don't be ashamed. To get the help you need yourself to deal with it.
[00:56:20] Laura McKowen: This is great. Thanks everyone. Appreciate you being.
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