What’s it like to FULLY embrace being a work in progress? yung pueblo is the pen name for Diego Perez. Over the course of two books and a growing on-line presence, Perez is showing what it means to live a life of becoming. In this episode of TMST, Diego Perez shares how he grew into his meditation practice, what it means to keep social media and outside influences in perspective, and why the search for equanimity is vital. In a conversation that’s candid, approachable, practical, and funny, Laura and Diego explore the ways we’re all practicing, evolving and growing. Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST and keep it ad-free: https://tmst.supercast.com/ Join our free on-line community (it’s NOT a Facebook group!): https://www.tmstpod.com/
Yung Pueblo on The Search For Equanimity
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, Laura here, I'm going to read you something
[00:00:07] Hurts travel through time from one person to another. This unwanted heaviness moves from the past, into the present, and then into the future. One of the most heroic things anyone can do is break the line of. When people heal themselves, they stop the hurt from multiplying and their relationships become healthier.
[00:00:34] When people heal themselves, they also heal the future.
[00:00:43] It's just one of many, many life affirming entries in young Pueblo’s book, clarity and connection. Young Pueblo is the pen name for Diego Perez, with clarity and connection and his first book. [00:01:00] Diego has been shining a light on a path for anyone who wants to heal and grow. He's our guest for today's Tell Me Something True.
[00:01:11] We spent time talking about equanimity, the quality of calm, even composure and why that can be one of the most valuable traits to deliver. Presence healing balance, how to create a life that makes room for all of these things. We covered it all. And I got some fresh ideas about how to approach meditation.
[00:01:37] Something that doesn't come easy or naturally to me
[00:01:49] enjoy.
[00:01:58] Welcome Diego. So [00:02:00] glad you're here.
[00:02:01] Diego Perez: [00:02:01] Thank you for having me, Laura. I'm happy to be here too,
[00:02:03] Laura McKowen: [00:02:03] but by the time this comes out, your book will have been out for a couple months, but I'm talking to you the week before the new book comes out, which is kind of a cool time. So talk to us about the new book that's called clarity and connection, and maybe touch on how this book feels different than
[00:02:25] Diego Perez: [00:02:25] inward.
[00:02:26] Yeah, for sure. Inward was I self published it in 2017 and then it was reissued in 2018 and was like put in bookstores everywhere. But that first book was really all about, about personal transformation. It was just about you, the individual, and really trying to support whomever is reading it and understanding themselves a little bit better building self-awareness and also trying to understand H are a little better so that they could, yeah, no better flow with the [00:03:00] changes that are constantly happening instead of resisting them.
[00:03:03] Clarity and connection is a bit different because it not only continues that work of focusing on personal transformation and just, you know, giving the individual a lot of reflective material so that they could, you know, think about themselves during the day or think about their own history. But it also expands, it tries to really focus in on our connections with other people, with our friends, with our family, with our intimate relationships, because.
[00:03:27] That's one of the things that I've noticed in my own personal growth is that once I really went inward, I came out with new clarity and that clarity helped make my connections much deeper. It seems
[00:03:37] Laura McKowen: [00:03:37] like the natural progression of self-growth maybe transformation. You're a proponent, obviously of self actualization and self healing through meditation.
[00:03:48] That's a huge part of your story, observation and internal. You also cite the support of a community and activism is crucial to successful healing of ourselves in our culture. [00:04:00] So the question is how do we find balance between those things, between what we need to do for ourselves and what we need from others?
[00:04:10] Diego Perez: [00:04:10] I learned about it through not being balanced by, you know, really not. Cause I, I spent all of my late teens. Really deeply immersed in the world of activism, specifically organizing in Boston. I was part of this group called Boston youth organizing project, where we were like making real changes in the city.
[00:04:30] And it was just like a bunch of young people just getting things done, like whether on the city level or in our local schools. And it wasn't like service type work. It was real organizing where we were figuring out what was our common issue that we wanted to work on, whether it was like public transportation or guidance counselors, or trying to improve some facet of our material lives.
[00:04:50] And I saw how we would set our mind on a particular project and we would really keep the pressure on our targets and we would get the results that we wanted to get. So it [00:05:00] showed me pretty quickly how powerful a group of people could be if they came together around a common goal. How old were you when you started doing that?
[00:05:08] 15, 14, 15.
[00:05:10] Laura McKowen: [00:05:10] Okay. That's not a typical 14 year old, 15 year old thing to do.
[00:05:14] Diego Perez: [00:05:14] So what drove you to
[00:05:17] Laura McKowen: [00:05:17] no. No, but still, what, what drew you to that?
[00:05:21] Diego Perez: [00:05:21] My brother, he knew about the group before I did. And he's five years older than I am. So as he was transitioning out of high school and I was like transitioning into high school, he was like, oh, check this place.
[00:05:32] And when I got in there, I just got, you know, immediately sucked in and involved. And it was cool because it was different from other types of, you know, nonprofits that you could be a part of. Because as soon as you came in, you were giving like real democratic power over the organization. And it was the type of place where it was totally youth led and adult supported.
[00:05:52] So like adults would be around and they would teach you how to organize. And they'd teach you about your power. They teach you about different systems of oppression, but then it was like up to the [00:06:00] young people who were there to do. What do we want to work on? Who else do we want to include in this project?
[00:06:04] And how do we get from point a to point Z in this campaign? It isn't usual, but because it was my life, it just felt really normal. Sure. But I'm
[00:06:13] Laura McKowen: [00:06:13] curious about that instinct within you. That is obviously still there, the passion and the drive that is within you as an activist, but how that looks today is different.
[00:06:24] Diego Perez: [00:06:24] What initially drove me in was just, I always, since I was very little, had a feeling that the world was like, Um, things didn't seem quite right. Especially growing up, like we grew up extremely poor and we were under such constant hardships that it puts so much pressure on my family. And I knew that some people are wealthy and some people are not.
[00:06:44] And it seemed just like abnormal to me that there would be people who had to materially struggle, like to have to like, you know, figure out how to put food on the table or pay them. And to this day, I still have the same feeling, you know, the world. I mean, we've come such [00:07:00] a long way, but we have a long ways to go in terms of making our world humane, you know, just building specific standards of like how to treat each other and how to live compassionately, like it within a real structural company.
[00:07:15] Laura McKowen: [00:07:15] Okay. So back to the original question then, which is, you know, how do you balance these things, the, what I need and what others need.
[00:07:24] Diego Perez: [00:07:24] It's interesting. I think to figure out that balance, I had to take a big step back. I was so immersed in the world of organizing from like from 15 to like 26. And then when I took a big step back when I was about 26, Even though my healing journey, like really started when I was 24, I needed to even more deeply addressed the roots of my like mental suffering.
[00:07:45] So I spent a lot more time. Like I moved to a new city. I spent some like intentional time alone and started, um, not dating. No, no. I was with my partner brought like alone as him just like not spending a lot of time with other [00:08:00] people and specifically taking like a period of solitude to figure out if I really want it to.
[00:08:07] But immersed like intersperse in that time, I was, you know, going to retreats pretty often and just doing more silent, 10 David Pawson of courses. But I think the balance, like it's something that's just like ongoing. Oftentimes we look for these perfect solutions, but as a writer, like I, I'm still a writer and I spend most of my time writing, so I'm not actively organizing, you know, I don't necessarily call them.
[00:08:29] An organizer and activist. I think that's definitely what I've done in the past, but to me, those are really active roles. So yeah. Now I see myself like as a supporter and like, I go to protests and I put boots on the ground, just like everybody else when it's time to go outside and like really make our voices heard.
[00:08:46] But I'm not leading those movements in the way I was when I was younger. Yeah.
[00:08:50] Laura McKowen: [00:08:50] I like that. You said I got there by. Being out of balance, you know, I, it, me too, I think balance is mostly a myth in the [00:09:00] way that we talk about it and common culture, because I think what that means is how do we do it all?
[00:09:05] Diego Perez: [00:09:05] Yeah, exactly, exactly.
[00:09:07] And like, I can only really do one thing at a time. So like right now I'm writing and like, I don't know what I'm going to do in the future. You know, like to me, young Pueblo, all this like writing that I've been doing, it really is a project, but I might go back into organizing depending on. What is my intuition telling me what's this new volition that comes up.
[00:09:24] So I try to leave the future open. Cause I can only do one thing at a time. I could do a few things, you know, within a small amount of time, but I'm really more so focused on trying to do the few things that I like commit to really well. So right now it's like writing, you know, finishing the book that I just made clarity and connection and writing another book after.
[00:09:44] Laura McKowen: [00:09:44] Right. You talk about a decade ago or so you had a transformative experience that revealed the possibilities of true healing to you? Uh it's I believe it was. So your first extended meditation retreat, maybe in [00:10:00] 2012. Okay. So can you talk about what your life was like your daily life, both inner and outer were like before you went on that retreat?
[00:10:11] What was going on?
[00:10:12] Diego Perez: [00:10:12] Um, before I went on the retreat, I had already started digging deep into like two particular things. It was radical honesty and positive habit building in the summer of 2011 was when I had my big crash. When I like hit rock bottom and realized that I needed to just like radically transformed my life or else I was going to die early.
[00:10:32] What was
[00:10:33] Laura McKowen: [00:10:33] that? Take us there first. What was that? What was that like?
[00:10:37] Diego Perez: [00:10:37] Um, it was horrible. It was
[00:10:40] Laura McKowen: [00:10:40] rock bottom generally, uh, that, but it means something different for everyone.
[00:10:45] Diego Perez: [00:10:45] Totally, totally. And I also don't think it's necessary for everyone to build a better life. And that's just the route that I was like, the trajectory that I set myself on, but my habits had gotten so out of control and they were so unhealthy and I was [00:11:00] so I'm just like obsessed with.
[00:11:03] Filling my body with a sensation of pleasure, either through drugs or through always being around friends or always partying or always consuming something or another, it had just taken me to this point where I was just incredibly unhealthy and miserable. I was so focused on not admitting how sad I was that I would try to just like, fill myself with this, like really vague.
[00:11:25] Superficial fun. And yeah, it just culminated in one night where I, you know, took too many different drugs and I felt like I was having a heart attack. And that was just like on the floor. They're basically willing myself back into life and realizing, I think it was like the day after or two, we were just really, really realizing that, um, what got me there was lying to myself.
[00:11:50] Yeah. I mean, um, it's more, it's just clear then after those days, like how did I get there? It was, I was lying to myself. I was just totally not admitting what was happening. And then I knew [00:12:00] that to get myself out of that hole, I would have to be honest with myself. No
[00:12:05] Laura McKowen: [00:12:05] small thing, no small thing. So you started down this path of, you said radical honesty and.
[00:12:12] Positive habit building. Okay. And then at some point you decided to do this. You must have been turned on to meditation before that, because one does not generally just go on a silent, well, maybe you did. Oh
[00:12:25] Diego Perez: [00:12:25] no, no. I was, I was not interested in meditation at all. And it was really funny. I meditated once with my wife for like 20 minutes and we didn't know what we were doing at all.
[00:12:34] No instruction. We just sat. Yeah. Burn 20 minutes. And then like, what was like, oh, that's, that's not that good, you know, and then just kept living our lives. But yeah, I ended up finding out about it through my friend, Sam. He did a course and he. Was just like so different afterwards that I was on this like personal transformation journey.
[00:12:56] Like I didn't call it that back then. I was just like, I'm trying to fix my life. [00:13:00] I'm trying
[00:13:00] Laura McKowen: [00:13:00] to not die and be miserable.
[00:13:03] Diego Perez: [00:13:03] Yeah. And make something of like, just, you know, make good use of the opportunity my parents gave me. But when I really was, you know, I was making progress. Like I was healthier. I felt better, but I knew I needed something.
[00:13:16] And when my friend came out of his course, I was just like, so impressed by what he wrote to me, because he was in India at the time, he was like, just talking about love, compassion, and Goodwill. And I had never really heard him talk about these things before. And something inside me clicked was like, oh, you know, I got to try that too.
[00:13:34] And it was a
[00:13:35] Laura McKowen: [00:13:35] meditation retreat that he
[00:13:36] Diego Perez: [00:13:36] did, or, yeah, I just signed up. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into, but I was like, okay, 10 days sounds hard, but I think I can. And that was just like one of the most important decisions in my life.
[00:13:49] Laura McKowen: [00:13:49] Isn't that wild, how that happens. You sort of follow these breadcrumbs and you just trust some kind of intuition in you and it can lead to this radical change in the trajectory of your life.
[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Or I've heard you talk about a specific time in that meditation retreat, where, or that course where you experienced something that was.
[00:14:08] Diego Perez: [00:14:08] People are always looking for one moment. And then, you know, I'm always like, it's like, it's a series of moments and just all these things building up together. But no, there wasn't like a specific moment.
[00:14:17] What I really remember from it was that it was grueling. It was really hard. Like I'd never been silent for 10 days and I never meditated for hours and hours and hours a day. So everything that I was doing was just brand new. I think the real moment came after the retreat. Just like the few days after I feel like my mind had lost weight, like I just had lost this like burden that I was carrying in my mind.
[00:14:43] I didn't feel like fully healed or anything, but I felt better. I felt like I can think more clearly I can feel more compassion like in my mind and my heart for you or for everything for me and for everything. And that wasn't something that was like really strong within me before at all. I felt like [00:15:00] it was funny.
[00:15:00] Cause I could in the past I could feel much more. Yeah. Compassion for like the world, like as an organizer, you have to have a bit of a love for the world to like, do this type of work. But I had less compassion for individuals. And now this was like a switch was like, oh, I have, you know, the love for the world is there, but there's more love for individuals that wasn't really there before.
[00:15:20] But that feeling of my mind, just being less dense, just motivated me to keep going back and to keep putting myself through that difficult process. I was getting results that I had never seen before that I didn't, you know, results that I didn't even really believe because I was like, what's going on here?
[00:15:37] Like, am I suppressing was like, is this a new type of line or something like that? Cause I want it to be really honest with myself. Yeah, exactly. But then the tests came later, like during difficult moments that would happen in life. And I would notice like, oh, there's no suppression here. It's just, the reaction has decreased the reaction isn't as intense as it used to.
[00:15:57] So there's something here and that's like, literally what [00:16:00] the goal of that technique is equanimity. And that's what I was gaining in my life. It's just that equanimity was so foreign that I didn't even know how to like deal with it. Yeah.
[00:16:09] Laura McKowen: [00:16:09] You know, what's funny that you say that because when I read your words, that is the essence of what I feel in your words is equanimity.
[00:16:18] That's the word that always comes to mind is equanimity. And that's not. It's the energy in the words. And I think as a writer and as a avid reader, you can read the same thing written by many different people, but it will make you feel differently based on who wrote it. And what's actually transmitting into those words.
[00:16:40] So equanimity, it did make its way into you because I think that's what you transmit among other things.
[00:16:46] Diego Perez: [00:16:46] Thank you. That's so kind of you to say, yeah, I have this relationship in my life with impermanence and equanimity. Impermanence is the most fundamental thing that I'm trying to understand in this life.
[00:16:56] And equanimity is what I'm trying to develop. And between the two, I try to live my life. But yeah, equanimity is like, it's real happiness. That balance of mine to not be constantly reacting, to not be constantly craving or having a version, to just see reality as it is and allow it to flow the way.
[00:17:29] Michael, I'm the executive producer of the podcast at TMS T we're passionate about having conversations that bring us together and help us stoke our love of life. That's why we created a dedicated site for you. It's free. It's not Facebook group and we aren't mining your data to target you with ads. So check it out.
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[00:19:03] [00:19:00] Laura McKowen: [00:19:03] I've seen, you mentioned that your wife meditates with you now, did she just come right along on the what? Because this, I think is a challenge for people too, in partnerships where one person grows at a different, yeah. Yeah. How has that looked for you?
[00:19:19] Diego Perez: [00:19:19] It looked exactly like that. We grew up very different speeds.
[00:19:22] We were both immediately interested in taking a course, but then I was the one who started sitting two hours a day before she did like months before, like I think like nine months before she did. And afterwards it just kinda clicked inside her. And she decided to come along for the ride as well. Cause she had to go through her own process.
[00:19:43] She had to figure out like, was this for her. Has even at that time, I think we were like looking at other styles of meditation. Like, should we take this route or that route, but then when it clicked that, you know, Vipassana was, was for the both of us, like let's, let's take it seriously. And similarly, there was like a point when we [00:20:00] both started realizing that smoking weed, drinking alcohol, just like wasn't serving us anymore, but she was ready to give all that up before I was like a few months before.
[00:20:09] And then. Like I remember feeling bad that she was able to give it up so quickly. Yeah. It was harder for you. It was hard. Yeah. Yeah. It was hard to not be like to not have someone by my side doing the same thing. And also because I did want to give it up, but I wasn't quite ready to, but I was so grateful for the patients as she gave me and just like letting me go through my own process and then like a few months pass and then it clicked and I was like, okay, I'm ready now.
[00:20:36] I'm ready to really give it up and put my foot down. And yeah, we just, we just grow at different speeds even to this day. Yeah.
[00:20:43] Laura McKowen: [00:20:43] Yeah. of course we do. Of course we do. So what is the relationship to you between substances and meditation? What led you to the decision that it doesn't belong in your life anymore?
[00:20:56] Diego Perez: [00:20:56] Yeah, that's a good question. So at that point I had already [00:21:00] like dwindled, the amount of intoxicants that I had taken to like a very small amount, but I had started meditating two hours a day. Before I gave up and toxicants so I was like doing both simultaneously and hour in the morning, hour in the evening.
[00:21:12] Exactly. What I would notice was that when I would go like periods of times without consuming and toxicants, or without, you know, taking alcohol, my mind felt sharper and my mind felt a lot less dense, but I had this inkling. I was like, when you go to a retreat, you're there for 10 days and you're obviously not drinking or smoking.
[00:21:32] Right. And your mind just like clears up and then it has this like beautiful, pristine quality that supports your awareness, supports your equanimity, supports you to go even deeper and to gain more wisdom. And at that point I was like, okay, I think this isn't for me anymore. One, like, I'm not really getting a lot and this is, you know, people live their own lives and then go through their own journey.
[00:21:54] So I'm not trying to impose my life onto others. I'm just talking about my story. But, [00:22:00] um, it just clicked that like, I'm getting such little from smoking now. Like I think in the past, when I was younger, I was actually gaining a lot. Cause it was like some system that was helping me just not get overwhelmed by everything that was happening.
[00:22:14] But then it quickly became a bad habit that just helped me escape from it without dealing with it. And the escape wasn't really real, but the moment I stopped, you know, I just felt like that was like a key pivotal moment of like an inner Renaissance began. You know, when I, when I like stopped drinking and smoking continued meditating two hours a day, My mind just went through such deep mental and physical healing, like on the mental level of my contents of the mind, but the physical level of my mind, like there was just so much more clarity flowing and I was able to take that and just make good use of it in meditating.
[00:22:51] And, um, it really just radically changed. The relationship, my wife and I have.
[00:22:56] Laura McKowen: [00:22:56] Yeah, I bet I will always remember this story that I heard. You know, [00:23:00] Wayne Dyer was like an old school sort of self-help guy, maybe consider a spiritual guy. I don't know. He talks about, you studied with Maslow and he was drinking consistently, but never say problematically.
[00:23:12] No one would say he was an alcoholic or anything like that, but he consistently had a couple of years every night, he, after his long runs. Maslow eventually said, like, I know the levels of consciousness that you want to reach, and if you want to get there alcohol, this has no place in your life. And I remember hearing that long before I got sober and there were many other reasons I had to get sober, you know, survivalist type of reasons, but that really stuck with me.
[00:23:41] And the reason I'm bringing that up. Beyond sort of the immediate effects that alcohol or drugs or intoxicants can have on our day-to-day life. There's like another layer that we don't really know what's possible within ourselves within our own minds. [00:24:00] And it feels like that's part of what you've discovered about yourself is that.
[00:24:07] Call it the hidden 25% or I don't know what you'd call it. It's like, we don't even know what's
[00:24:13] Diego Perez: [00:24:13] possible. You know, I'm so glad that you're bringing this up because I've never really gone to speak about it in depth. It's funny. Cause it feels like we're talking about a secret, but um, it's getting quiet.
[00:24:25] Hushing up? Um, so my last, okay, so to be really honest, my experience was that I could feel the meditation making my mind. It was just, that's the word that I can use, like literally making it lighter. And then even when I would, you know, smoke marijuana, drank alcohol, or even take mushrooms, it felt like the meditation had helped me go to a much subtler level.
[00:24:50] And then when I would take these things, it would bring me to a denser level in it's funny because I remember when I was growing up and like the memes at the time and all the things that were [00:25:00] around in social media, there was a lot about how. Marijuana and like psychedelics can help you make your mind very subtle.
[00:25:07] And I totally think that's true, but meditation just like, for me personally, it just went so much deeper that when I did try those things in the past again, after having started meditated, I was like, oh, this isn't for me anymore. Like it's only bringing up the same type of. Intellectualize was wisdom. And whereas meditation was you're gaining wisdom through direct experience.
[00:25:29] And you were just literally solely using the power of your mind to better understand the universe, as opposed to having some sort of medium that was helping you do that. Yeah. When I recognize I'm like, man, this meditation is trying to make my mind light. Why am I making it heavy? I can just kind of let go that stuff.
[00:25:46] Laura McKowen: [00:25:46] That's a really interesting way to put it. And a lot of people, and this is also zero. Won't know what that feels like, because it's just sort of foregone conclusion that we use substances, even, [00:26:00] even subtle ones, you know, as humans we just do. And so let's just talk briefly about finding a practice that works for you, but doesn't overwhelm
[00:26:10] Diego Perez: [00:26:10] you.
[00:26:10] Yeah. We've spent all his time talking about meditating a lot, and I find that it's a tool that works great for me. It really meets my conditioning. It helps. Make my strong point stronger and it helps develop my weak points in a sustainable manner, but from what I've noticed, and we all have such different conditioning, like our emotional histories are just on this really vast spectrum.
[00:26:37] So some people have experienced very little trauma. Other people have experienced immense immense amounts of trauma. What I try to tell people is that there's something out there for you that will help you heal. The amount that you want to heal is dependent on you. How far you want to go. But what I'm trying to do is just give people a little bit of inspiration and encouragement too.
[00:27:00] At least in this lifetime, take a few steps forward from wherever you are, right? Yeah. Build a little more. Self-love know yourself, a little. Have a little more compassion towards yourself and other people. And those few steps forward that you may take, they will help you cause less harm to yourself and to other people.
[00:27:18] And if more and more people take those steps forward, that will cause a massive amount of change in our world. But how you take those steps forward, the tools that you use. It's going to be different for different people. And I think that's one of the positive sides of living in a globalized world down is that we have access to such a wide variety of tools.
[00:27:42] Like we can go much further, so many more people have access to meditation. So many more people have access to therapy. And then outside of that journaling, and there's all these different methods of helping you build self-awareness and self-love. So to me, You need [00:28:00] to find your own method that will help you just get to know yourself better, but that it just won't make it overwhelming.
[00:28:08] Cause sometimes it becomes too much where too much stuff comes up and then you're going to want to run away from the process. And that's not what we want. Right. We want something that's sustainable. Something that you can keep going back to, that you can be diligent about whether that's therapy, meditating or something else.
[00:28:23] You know, things that I don't even know about what matters is that real personal transformation has had.
[00:28:28] Laura McKowen: [00:28:28] Do you have any thoughts for people on how to find something?
[00:28:35] Diego Perez: [00:28:35] Oh yeah, for sure. I think the most common one is like Googling like Google. Like how do I, you know, deal with my anxiety and you're going to find so many things.
[00:28:47] And also, I definitely want to say too, like sometimes the avenue is Western medicine. Like for a lot of people, like I've seen one-on-one therapy work incredibly well. I've also seen. Psychiatry stop people from [00:29:00] committing horrible acts to themselves. Yeah. So it's literally about whatever will help you.
[00:29:06] Not only bring a sense of stability into your life, but then also a sense of progress that you're, you are taking that steps into your growth. So wherever that beginning point is for you honor it and start.
[00:29:19] Laura McKowen: [00:29:19] Yeah. Just trying things, just really being willing to try, I think has been my experience. My experience is once we open ourselves.
[00:29:26] And this is what echoes in your story so far throughout is once we start on a path, the universe, the world, however you want to phrase it, response and new things come up. New people show up in our lives. You might get an email, you know, or see a post or something that, and just following those, the breadcrumbs, the next breadcrumb and the next breadcrumb in the next breadcrumb,
[00:29:49] Diego Perez: [00:29:49] it's wild too, because.
[00:29:51] I remember when I was really young and I was trying to figure out where I was going to go to college. And for some weird, unknown [00:30:00] reason, I was like, adamant. Like I have to go to Wesleyan, even though I'd never visited the place. I never even really knew about it. I remember finding it through a magazine about colleges and I was like, oh yeah, that one I got to go to.
[00:30:11] Laura McKowen: [00:30:11] That's so funny. I felt the same way about Boston. I had never been here. I'd never been east of Chicago. I was from Colorado. The name of this town just like struck something
[00:30:22] Diego Perez: [00:30:22] in me. Oh, totally. Totally. Totally. And the intuition starts roaring and then like just starts like molding reality for it to come true.
[00:30:29] And it's funny because then at Wesleyan, like I met not only the person who told me about Vipassana, but I met my wife and all my other best friends. So it was so even though I had such a hard time there, it was like critical that I have that hard time. And, you know, and I got so much benefit from that.
[00:30:49] Yes.
[00:30:51] Laura McKowen: [00:30:51] You have a massive following on social media and you seem to be one of those people that uses it. [00:31:00] Well, I'm so curious about this personally, but I know a lot of other people will be too. I just recently left social media. I couldn't do it. It was making me very mentally ill and it was like drinking for me.
[00:31:14] I tried to find a way to make it work and I just couldn't, but I can see, you know, it's been a huge benefit to me in growing my own career and publishing my first book. So what's your relationship with it?
[00:31:29] Diego Perez: [00:31:29] It's a beautiful up and down relationship. It's like, it's just like all the others. It's funny. I, I think that's one of the reasons yeah.
[00:31:36] Why it really felt right to do it all under a pen name. Yeah. So even early on, like in 2014 was when I really was like, okay, let me start writing. You know, like I'm not fully healed or anything like that. Nothing special happened to me. I just feel a little bit better and I felt creativity flowing, but I dunno, something felt right about putting.
[00:31:58] Everything that I was going to [00:32:00] share under a pen name and then not really featuring myself, like my face. I don't want to make my face famous. Like that's never my goal. You know, I want to be able to like live my life privately. Um, so I do do podcasts and like sometimes other media events. But when you go to my page, it's going to be a little hard.
[00:32:18] Like you can see the tiny little icon that has my face, but it's a tiny little.
[00:32:22] Laura McKowen: [00:32:22] It's almost, there's like, there's no ego in,
[00:32:24] Diego Perez: [00:32:24] in the, on that. One of the main things that I'm trying to do is like, I try to be really careful with how is this affecting me? Like, is this bringing my mood up? Is it bringing it down?
[00:32:34] Is it growing my ego? Is it making it smaller? So I'm constantly having this like self analysis where I'm trying to make sure that I use this as any other tool, as opposed to like making it dominate the way that I see myself, because if my ego is growing, then I'm not making progress. You know, so it's like critical that I handle this well.
[00:32:56] So I try to create a lot of space in terms of [00:33:00] like, you know, how often I go on how many things I respond to, how often I post, so that it's all very limited. And it is set up in a way where it supports my mental health as opposed to hurting it. Because if you know, like I can't respond to every message and I can.
[00:33:16] Respond to every email because it would just, it would take up too much of my time and I wouldn't be able to nourish myself the way I need to, to be creative at all. If I just did everything everyone wanted me to do for them. Amen
[00:33:27] Laura McKowen: [00:33:27] to that. There's the being on it as the person, you are the creator that you are, but there's also the ingesting it ingest.
[00:33:36] Diego Perez: [00:33:36] Yeah, totally. And I think even, do you really limit that? Yeah, I do. And even ingesting the positive sides of it too. I don't think are that good? Hmm. Having a lot of people congratulate you, like, you know, for me, like internally, I'm so happy that my work serves you, but it's not that good for me to, to read like all these like really positive things all the time, because I'm just like a regular person, just like everybody else, [00:34:00] you know, I just happen to write and I got fortunate on social media.
[00:34:03] Yeah,
[00:34:03] Laura McKowen: [00:34:03] that's great. And again, I think it's one of those things. Everyone has to decide their own experience and what works for them. No matter what it is, I could not figure out a way to not have it pull me in all directions. And, and I finally, after six years, got to the point where I said, okay, then, you know, maybe that's just the way it is for me.
[00:34:24] And I'll find other ways.
[00:34:25] Diego Perez: [00:34:25] Yeah. And it's something that is incredibly energy concerns. Like just like even taking in all the memes, taking in all the words, constantly reading all this stuff, scrolling. It's funny because one of the best things that I really enjoy for myself when I go to courses, when I go to retreats is like, you know, I put my phone in a lockbox and I put my valuables in a lockbox so that I just don't have to worry about them during the course and having to like, you know, turn my phone off.
[00:34:57] It's just like the best thing it's like, I'm not waiting for any text [00:35:00] messages. I'm not waiting for, you know, nothing like it's just me and my mind and me meditating and that's it.
[00:35:06] Laura McKowen: [00:35:06] So along these lines of social media, people tend to jump to conclusions. We all do. And in many cases, I believe react, not having acronymity or not having a pause between what we see and what we do about it or what we feel and what we do about it and what we think and what we do about it.
[00:35:26] You write about having emotional maturity and humility to avoid hasty judgements. So how do you practice this in your real life?
[00:35:34] Diego Perez: [00:35:34] One thing especially that I try to do is like those moments of difficulty when like a storm comes up or something is happening inside you where like old stuff is just coming up.
[00:35:43] I allow myself to just be a little more quiet because I know that because my mind is already going through something, my immediate perceptions are already closed. So if I'm going to like, just quickly make all these [00:36:00] valuations and assessments of things, the first reaction is often just like it's the past.
[00:36:06] It's literally just like how I would've reacted to things before you've learned. Yeah. Just like through observing myself. But the response, like after that, like what's my, you know, the immediate response after that, after the reaction. That will give me like a better sense of like how far I've come. So like, if something comes up and I immediately deal with like a version and I'm like, oh, like, you know, I don't want to be dealing with this, but then it's like, then you take a breath and you're like, actually let me deal with this with compassion.
[00:36:37] If someone's like wants me to do something and I'm already really busy and I feel stressed and it's like, okay, like, let me just honestly tell them, like, this is what I can and can't do. And this is how I can move. But at the same time, not think of anyone is bad, but just like send them love, you know, deal with all beings with love.
[00:36:56] So that's one thing that I try to really like stick to and like [00:37:00] build that habit is just not let the immediate reaction runaway with me and just like allow myself that spaciousness in my mind to, okay, let me see. That was my past. But now let me see, how would I deal with this in the past? And I think for a lot of people, the way that a lot of us grew up, it's like, you think that that immediate reaction is your authentic self, but it's like no way, dude.
[00:37:21] That's, that's just your past and your response, like that's gives you a better sense of who you are now.
[00:37:29] Laura McKowen: [00:37:29] Yes. The word that was coming to mind when you were talking is just space. Just more space in general. We're so immediate and there's space between everything. If you allow it really there's so much more space.
[00:37:45] So I would love for you to
[00:37:46] Diego Perez: [00:37:46] read. I think this is the first time I'm reading for my buck. Oh, really? Good. Good. Thanks so much for holding space. So nice. A real conversation free from projection and [00:38:00] ego flexing is a special gift most do. Now. Talk to me. They talk to be heard. Self-awareness selflessness and a real desire to listen are required for mutually authentic and honest exchange.
[00:38:20] Laura McKowen: [00:38:20] Thank you. I love that you used the word flexing. My daughter would appreciate that too
[00:38:28] Diego Perez: [00:38:28] time does not heal all wounds. It just gives them space to sink into the subconscious. Where they will continue to impact your emotions and behavior. What heals is going inward, loving yourself, accepting yourself, listening to your needs, addressing your attachments and emotional history.
[00:38:50] Learning how to let go, and following your intuition. Three thoughts, relationships normally start with [00:39:00] two people wanting to treat each other. Harm is caused when someone does not know how to properly manage their reactions to their emotions. If you think you are your emotions, then your words and actions will resemble your mental turbulence in relationships.
[00:39:20] It is important to understand that the other person can not fix your emotional problems at best. They can support you as you uncover. And process your own emotional history. There is no such thing as a perfect relationship, but there are incredible relationships in which the mutual connection and support are indescribably profound.
[00:39:48] Laura McKowen: [00:39:48] I love that you wrote so much about relationships in this.
[00:39:52] Diego Perez: [00:39:52] Thank you. Yeah, it was like, really? I had to like gather up the courage to do that. Cause like, I don't have a perfect relationship, but [00:40:00] you know, my wife and I have really come a long way cause like we used to live in a hurricane together and
[00:40:07] Laura McKowen: [00:40:07] cause of your
[00:40:07] Diego Perez: [00:40:07] own stuff, our own stuff.
[00:40:09] Yeah. Ignorance. Yeah. Um, we didn't know ourselves and we didn't know each other well, so it was just flowing between like calmness and chaos and most of the time it was okay. Yeah, but now we have a little more calmness than chaos.
[00:40:23] Laura McKowen: [00:40:23] Yes. The balance is tipped. Yeah. Yeah. There is no perfect relationship as you know it's but you articulated that beautifully in that third point.
[00:40:31] And personally, I am amazed at your ability to distill concepts. Yeah. Communicate them so well, it's truly a gift and it's been a gift to me for many years now. It's wonderful to actually see you and talk to you and put a face to these words. I mostly had on Instagram until a while ago, before I bought your book.
[00:40:57] And I share them all the time in my sobriety [00:41:00] support meetings are beloved to people who are recovering. Uh, a huge compliment when people are in recovery, entering recovery, contemplating it, trying they're in a lot of pain and your words provide a really beautiful space for them to go through what they're going through.
[00:41:18] Diego Perez: [00:41:18] Thank you so much. That really means a lot, especially in such a delicate space. It's nice to know that. People are finding value in the words, because that's the challenge I give myself as like, may I make something useful?
[00:41:31] Laura McKowen: [00:41:31] Absolutely are. And I think one of the really neat things is that it crosses all ages, classes and races and genders.
[00:41:40] I mean, I have a mix of people and one of the men that works for me is this, you know, in his sixties he's been sober 30 years and. He's like an old timer in AA, you know? And he reads your work in our meetings. Yeah. And it's just like, oh my God, it's so beautiful.
[00:41:58] Diego Perez: [00:41:58] It's such an honor.
[00:42:00] [00:41:59] Laura McKowen: [00:41:59] Well, thank you so much for your time.
[00:42:01] I really appreciate it. It was beautiful to meet you and hopefully it won't be the
[00:42:05] Diego Perez: [00:42:05] last time. Yeah. No, thank you so much for having me. And this has been such a joy.
[00:42:17] Laura McKowen: [00:42:17] You can go deeper on today's episode with Diego. When you head over to T M S T pod.com. Right now. We'll link you to his latest book, clarity and connection. And while you're there plug into the TMS T online community, it's not a Facebook group and it's ad free. And now I want to share something that is extremely important and relevant to you.
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[00:44:02] [00:44:00] coming up next time, someone I admire a great deal. Peter Rollins. Think of him as your friend from Ireland who has all the best questions about faith and psychology and belonging. And it's just the very best hang you're going to love him. Tell me something true is engineered and mixed by Paul Tufo. Jeff Whittington was a producer for this episode, Michael Elsasser and I dreamed up the show and we're looking forward to joining you online and next time on tell me something true.