Thank heavens for Ali Shapiro because this week we dig into food, our bodies, and the stories we tell ourselves about our self-worth. Ali is the creator of the Truce with Food Process, which combines psychology and behavioral change so we can break all the absurd, dangerous and shaming ways we approach food and our bodies.
Ali Shapiro arrives with a mountain of good news!
We don't have to evade our relationship with food. We don't have to be ruled by stories that shame us and keep us stuck. Most importantly, those stories don't have to contribute to hating ourselves.
Ali is the creator of the Truce with Food Program, which combines how we think - and feel about - food and the stories we tell ourselves. She’s bridging psychology and behavioral change so we can break all the absurd, dangerous and shaming ways we approach food and our bodies.
Ali’s a holistic nutritionist, integrated health coach and a total straight-shooter who’s not afraid to call BS on the insanity of diet culture. Her approach is truly a breath of fresh air; she’s one of the only people we'd have this kind of conversation with.
Ali’s site: https://alishapiro.com/courses/truce-with-food/
If you care about these kinds of conversations, we hope you’ll become a TMST Plus member.
Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/64-ali-shapiro-healing-our-relationship-to-food-weight-and-body-image
Spotify playlist for this episode:
Here’s the transcript: https://tell-me-something-true.simplecast.com/episodes/ali-shapiro-on-healing-our-relationship-to-food-weight-and-body-image/transcript
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TMST Ali Shapiro on Healing our Relationship to Food, Weight, and Body Image (final)
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. Welcome to TMS T all right, I'm gonna ask you to take a big breath and give me a second. Today. We are talking about food and our bodies and the stories we tell ourselves about our worth because of all the gnarly junk. That swirls around these topics. And I asked you to take a breath because I know people wanna tap out on these topics.
[00:00:34] I totally get it. But thankfully we have ally Shapiro. Ally is the creator of the truce with food process. I love that name TRUS with food. Sounds so good. Which combines how we think and feel about food and all the stories we tell ourselves she's bridging psychology and
[00:00:57] behavioral change. So [00:01:00] we can. All the absurd and dangerous and shaming patterns we have.
[00:01:05] And the stories around food in our bodies, Allie is an holistic nutritionist, an integrated health coach, and she is a total street shooter. Who's not afraid to call BS on all the insanity of diet culture of which there is no end. Her approach is truly a breath of fresh air. She is one of the only people I would have this conversation with.
[00:01:30] Every episode of TM S T has a personal connection, but I have to say this topic really cuts to the core for me. I. No different from so many of you, I've struggled around issues of food and my body and what all of it means to my perception of self and worth all of that, that whole Moras of stuff. And Allie's one of those people who just feels grounding when it comes to this topic.
[00:01:57] So I am so grateful. We have her in the [00:02:00] world to help guide us through to a better place. All right, here is my friend ally Shap.
[00:02:18] Hey, Allie. It's good to see you. You too. I be here. .
[00:02:22] Ali Shapiro: I'm so honored to be here. I love the conversations that you are having on this show. It's just, thank you. Uh, it's a breath of fresh air nuance and complexity in the midst of polarization.
[00:02:34] Laura McKowen: I always get a little nervous to have a conversation about food body stuff, cuz it is.
[00:02:40] uh, triggering for P most people, you know? Yeah. So we'll just say that right off the bat, this is gonna be a hopefully very comforting conversation. Yes. Not gonna throw a bunch of rules at you. You're not gonna feel like you're doing things wrong.
[00:02:56] Ali Shapiro: yeah. Yeah. If anything, I want people to understand [00:03:00] kind of like with drinking often, it makes complete sense if you know the root cause of why you're doing.
[00:03:06] Versus mm-hmm , you're sabotaging yourself or you're bad and, and we'll get into all that. So
[00:03:13] Laura McKowen: almost all of my work, obviously around addiction has been specific to alcohol, but food was absolutely my first sort of coping mechanism, uh, as it is for. Many many people. And I have found often underneath the food underneath the alcohol addiction or whatever addiction, the, the food rears its head, right?
[00:03:34] The body suffer rears its head. When we get rid of, of that one, or we overcome that. Um, and it's a lot harder to untangle because unlike a substance we have to eat. We've talked about that a ton. You don't to opt out of eating. There's no such thing as abstinence. So the process of recovery in Paris, Such a paradox.
[00:03:54] And I think that. What keeps us frozen like in this, because trillions of [00:04:00] dollars are pumped into helping quote unquote, helping us to address our relationship with our food, with food, our bodies in particular weight. And there are always these solutions that promise to be so simple. You know, you just follow this equation and you're gonna be, it's all gonna be set, but it's focused on the wrong outcomes.
[00:04:20] And so this is why we, I wanted to have you here to help us untangle this all. Um, But before we do that, can you share how you got into
[00:04:29] Ali Shapiro: this work? Yeah, so, um, I, I think I can start when I went to weight Watchers at, at age 11 and, um, I was called fat on the bus by a boy named Ryan. I won't, I won't disclose his last name.
[00:04:44] but I still remember Ryan. And it's always amazing to me how, you know, I was probably in like third grade, but you knew fat was bad, right? Like even though, you know, I grew up with a, a dad that was like, you can do anything. And my dad happened to also be [00:05:00] really obsessed with his weight. He was always running from the fat man and he never put it on us, but, you know, and we can get into this later, but developmentally as children, we take on, you know, what we learn in our, in our house.
[00:05:13] So I went to weight Watchers at 11 and I had, you know, some success also Richard Simmons deal meal 11, yes. At 11. So young. Yeah. And, and what I would later piece together in my, I guess in my late twenties was I had been exposed to pesticides. Um, I was doing gymnastics in a Fren yard. Uh, Uh, and their, their yard had just been sprayed with like pesticides.
[00:05:36] And I had a really bad reaction for like two weeks and the doctors didn't know what it was, but I started gaining weight after that. Um, and so now what I know is weight is sometimes inflammatory driven, talking about nuance. It's not always, you know, calories and calories out. Um, and so I was like, I'm gaining weight.
[00:05:55] I don't know why. And, and you just know it's bad, especially if you grow up in America, I would say, [00:06:00] um, And then, yeah, I, I lost some weight, but I was never able to like stick with it. And then when I was 13, I was diagnosed with cancer and, um, I got really thin from that. Um, it was, you know, chemo, you can't keep much food down and, and whatnot, and you start getting attention.
[00:06:18] Right? I think everyone, this is what's tricky about weight is people say. It doesn't matter, but we have these lived experiences of, well, I'm getting more attention from boys. Girls are giving me more attention, right? It's, it's more fun to shop the, the clothing designers, you know, are, are geared more towards you when you're thinner.
[00:06:37] Um, and at that stage, I could pretty much outrun what I was eating, you know, because you don't have much else to much else to do. At least I didn't, as a, as a high school students group study and have your job, you know, part, um, a part-time job. Um, and then when I went to college, which was a huge transition, my emotional eating basically turned into binging and that's really when [00:07:00] the diet starts tomorrow, diet starts tomorrow.
[00:07:02] And, um, that was, I guess, 20 something years ago, and this was long. And, and this was before social media before there was a community of health at health at every size, you know? Um, and I had just tried so much that I was, um, by the age of 24, I was like, I have to stop this. And basically I, I went to the Institute for integrative nutrition, which was a, is a holistic nutrition school.
[00:07:27] And I found functional medicine. And I basically realized that a lot of. My issues were, I was trying to be vegetarian as a cancer survivor. So I realized through functional medicine that a lot of my issues were blood sugar and gut related. And I was able to reverse all of that stuff. And I was just, I was thrilled about it, but I was like, why didn't I know about this?
[00:07:47] And, um, so I basically. Went to grad school. As I started to see my own clients to be like, why did I not know about this? Why didn't the doctors know about this? Um, and why were the therapists I were seeing? We didn't [00:08:00] address food, even though that was such a big part of my healing. Ultimately figuring out what foods worked for me.
[00:08:05] And I realized that. The reason that I didn't know about any of this, cuz I was so focused only on viewing food as calories and food is good or bad. Um, and everything was about weight loss versus this bigger meaning of, Hey, this can actually be a tool in your healing, um, versus something that you just turn to for unknown reasons that I thought were about willpower and discipl.
[00:08:27] And so basically in grad school, I came to the realization through my own journey and seeing my clients, we would stop talking about food at like the third session that what food I'd discovered is really about safety. And we turn to that when we feel physically unsafe from, especially if we're not getting the right foods for our bodies.
[00:08:47] So as I started to realize that all of this like shame that I had, um, started to dissolve cause. Oh, this makes complete sense. Um, we all have these stories and when we feel at [00:09:00] risk in some way, food is a source of comfort.
[00:09:03] Laura McKowen: So what is the work that you do now? Yeah,
[00:09:06] Ali Shapiro: so the process that I created is called Tru with food and the AC the academic in me would call it bio psychosocial.
[00:09:14] The, what the magazine version is mind, body spirit, or, and I would, I would even say mind, body soul, because it's more about, uh, you're a yoga teacher that those. That root chakra. Um, mm-hmm safety. So it's yeah, safety. So it's really helping people unpack the stories that make us feel psychologically unsafe.
[00:09:33] Um, and then why do we turn to those? Uh, why do we turn to food and how can we actually build our capacity to choose differently in our stories? Cuz that's where the healing is when we can choose differently today. When we probably didn't have access to different choices, you know, way in the. One of the things
[00:09:52] Laura McKowen: that I found so helpful that I first heard you say is that food that we have this narrative, that food is about [00:10:00] control, especially eating disorders that they're about control.
[00:10:03] And you say it's not. It that's so oversimplified. So can you talk about that?
[00:10:10] Ali Shapiro: Yeah. So we can talk about the re how we're rewarded. Right. Um, and so a lot of my clients, they, I call it, I deserve this eating, right. It's like, so they come , they come home at the end of the day and they're like, I deserve this because there's this narrative that if we sacrifice ourselves, right, we'll be rewarded.
[00:10:28] And, and again, it starts in childhood of sometimes we just need to let our emotions out and like, you know, and let our emotions out. Like again, I would give the example of my son. He's three, if he doesn't wanna leave the playground, let me just say it to him. I understand you're upset, right? So have someone validate our experience, but then say, and we've gotta leave rather than thinking he gets a reward for doing the hard thing.
[00:10:53] and so which when you're three and I would say adults, actually, a lot of my clients struggle with transitions [00:11:00] because, um, if we look at transitions, take a lot out of us, like
[00:11:04] Laura McKowen: what's a transition, what's a, what's a transition that we. Oh,
[00:11:08] Ali Shapiro: work, work to home, work to home in the, in the afternoon, right. Or work to parenting.
[00:11:13] And then to home, it's like, oh my God, I've gotta like gather myself. I'm like mentally still thinking about my to-do list. But now I have to deal with, you know, whatever's coming my way with my kid and then I have to do the whole nighttime routine. And then it's like, That. So that's a transition of like when you're kind of switching tasks, that's super
[00:11:34] Laura McKowen: stressful.
[00:11:35] I mean, I used to feel like work was my easy, easier place to be by far, I had more control there. So are you saying that we often equate, like I deserve this because I helps to ease me into that transition or after I've done it, I, I get to reward myself with whatever, cuz I deserve it. I deserve to eat whatever.
[00:11:54] Ali Shapiro: Yeah, so it'll be different for everyone. Right? So a lot of my clients realize that actually [00:12:00] a huge reason they turn to sugar is they're exhausted. They're tired. Right? Totally. And, but their story is, I've gotta be productive if I'm not productive, I'm falling behind. If I'm falling behind, I'm losing financial security right.
[00:12:12] Or opportunities. Right. And so the story isn't actually about food, but then they have physically exhausted themselves right from that. And so then the transition can often help them. Power through, right. Um, to, to get through that transition. Um, and then maybe when they, you know, I have a lot of my clients are like, I'm standing in front of the fridge at the end of the night, you know, and I'm looking in there and I don't know what I want.
[00:12:39] And when we really think about it's like, what feels at risk there? It's like, oh, I'm thinking about, did I say that? Is that person mad? Is that, so the residue of the day, like, you know, and, and it's, you can think of it as Phantom hunger, right? It's like, you don't really want it. There's not, you don't have a specific craving, but you're standing there and all of the [00:13:00] risks that you're afraid of.
[00:13:01] Like, you know, start coming up of, is that person mad at me? Is that, did I say the right thing? Um, and so those transitional times often bring up the uncertainty and if we aren't, if we aren't eating well, if we aren't sleeping well, you know, if we don't have the right relationship support in our lives, um, We, we feel less capable in those transitions and then food becomes even more likely of multiple root causes, right.
[00:13:28] Exhaustion. Right. And the uncertainty of. Was that the right thing to say, what are they gonna think? Right.
[00:13:35] Laura McKowen: So again, back to safety.
[00:13:37] Ali Shapiro: Yes. Yeah. And I think safety bigger is a bigger, um, bigger bucket than just control, cuz it, it can be about control. But what my clients start to realize is they don't need control, but they need choice.
[00:13:50] They need. And because adults, we don't like our autonomy taken away, you know, mm-hmm, like the minute you tell someone not to do something, it's like. Okay. You just took my grown [00:14:00] ass sense of myself , you know, yeah. Away. Um, and so it's like, we are actually, I believe much more resilient and creative if we focus on, I call it being in choice.
[00:14:10] Right. Of rather than thinking we need control. Um, but the reward thing is huge. Why we, we turn to food and that's not about control that's we can so many people, um, and, and I love, you know, you had Kelly McDaniels on about mother hunger and she talked about being adapted to deprivation. Right? Mm-hmm so many people you can't, you can only be deprived so much.
[00:14:34] Right. Um, right before you're gonna need to compensate that. And, and we often think with food, well, oh, We're depriving ourselves of food. And so then we binge on the food, but we also deprive ourselves emotionally. And then we binge on the comfort that we haven't been getting throughout the day. So it's that, but then it's also, um, again, if we think of food from like a safety grounding standpoint, right.
[00:14:59] We, we [00:15:00] know the phrase. Oh, I felt like someone took the rug out from under me. Right. Mm-hmm and a lot of. Food is about routine ritual. Right. It connects us to our family, which is that, or our ancestry. Um, it connects us to other people. Right. um, and so you can go to an event and it's much like, you know, if you feel like you don't belong, cuz you're not drinking, you know, it's like my clients get the same thing of why aren't you eating that?
[00:15:28] Oh, you're not the fun one. Totally. Totally. And yeah, food, food pressure is real. So real. And then there's the like, oh, I don't wanna be the difficult one. So we have this story about, I can't be the burden. I can't be the difficult one. Um, and so that is about loneliness, not control because loneliness, people often feel the most lonely around other people cuz it's about your social needs not being met.
[00:15:54] So if you. Genuinely don't want to eat something, but you feel you have to, to, you know, just go with the [00:16:00] flow. That choice is like, I'm not actually being seen for who I am. And that's what psychological safety is, is my clients often. I think the way to describe it is like, you don't feel, you have to need to be on.
[00:16:12] If you feel psychologically safe, it's like, oh, I don't have to be on, you know, I, I think the four main things are exhaustion, uncertainty, which can lead to wanting control inadequacy, not enough too much, but also loneliness and, and reward. You know, those are the, those are tend to be all of the reasons,
[00:16:32] Laura McKowen: all of like, I can feel it in my body.
[00:16:34] That the way I used to feel about food all the time was that I, I was trapped. I could not be comfortable with food unless I was con and I, the idea was that I had to be constantly thinking about it constantly vigilant, constantly aware, constantly good and [00:17:00] managing it, but it was always just out of reach because we can't do that.
[00:17:05] It's IM. . I mean, how many times my mother and my grandmother talked about food is good and bad. That food's good. That food's. Right. Yeah. And eating was bad generally. Just flat out eating in an Italian family. So you're supposed to eat and eating is love, and this is how we share with each other. And, and, but, but getting too full and being too, having too much food is
[00:17:34] Ali Shapiro: bad.
[00:17:35] Well, and I love that you bring that up. Then the deeper meaning is what does this mean about me? Right. If I'm eating too much. Right. And in America, I, I can't speak for other countries, but I have clients all over the world and it's kind of the same thread. right. Mm-hmm is that if you're good with food, it's that you're responsible.
[00:17:57] You're disciplined, right? You're [00:18:00] successful. You're working hard. And then the binary is okay if you're fat or not eating too much, you. Irresponsible you're undisciplined and you are lazy and you are unsuccessful. And we think this is about our body size. And, and this is a, a point that I think is so important for those of us in the wellness.
[00:18:21] A lot of people who claim they're not religious, but spiritual, that kind of overlaps with the wellness community. They don't realize that all of those values come from pro the Protestant work ethic.
[00:18:31] Laura McKowen: I just wrote about this in my next book. It's it's puritanical culture or Protestant. They're very similar.
[00:18:39] You know, that we're, we are founded on that this country is founded on that, this idea of the morality of. Responsibility, the morality of hard work, the morality of discipline, like that's, it goes that deep where I'm a good person. If I can do this and I'm a bad person, if I [00:19:00] don't. Yes. And I talk about it in terms of, of alcohol, but also just the baseline level of self hate that we have is a unique phenomenon to the west.
[00:19:14] And we don't even know that. I remember the first time I heard that I was like, What this isn't something that everyone just feels, you know, and it's. , it's not, it's not that that people in other countries and, and other, you know, it's in the east say don't feel elements of that. But ours is particularly like acidic and incessant.
[00:19:36] Ali Shapiro: My clients often say, well, I'm falling off track. And what the track in their mind, what they're really talking about is this value system. And they're like, feel like I'm on a balance beam and I could go either way. And what that. The tight rope I'm walking on. And the, my definition of responsibility, there's very little room for error and everything else is bad.
[00:19:55] So if I drop one ball, right, like, and there's no social safety net. And so we think [00:20:00] like, oh my God, I have to be hard working to like, have my basic needs met. Right. But then we think people who are wealthier have worked more even. Some of the hardest working people are the people who make the least amount of money.
[00:20:13] Um, but they have not as much room for error. Right. They have to work two jobs, they can't get sick, they have no childcare. So that's what I mean by our it's important to know our values, but we also have to understand what do I mean by responsible and it's about food, but it's about everything else in our stories too.
[00:20:31] Right. So it's like, Okay. If I have to be respons at work and I have to be responsible, um, to go the extra mile on the project, if I have to, you know, I can't call in sick, all this stuff, then no wonder you're gonna reward yourself at night.
[00:20:48] Laura McKowen: Well, what you're speaking to to me is something that I think is at the core of, of my struggle with food was that I felt like I could not trust any of my, [00:21:00] my intuition itself was fault.
[00:21:05] Yes. And what a scary place to be. My intuition is telling me, I, I, I, I should be eating more. This isn't enough food. I was miserable and I knew. This can't be a sustainable way of living, but there was a trap there because if I don't do this, then I, then I end up with that. So what that tells you is like you, you can't trust your intuition.
[00:21:31] Ali Shapiro: I love that you brought that up E especially, cuz your body is your home. Right. Like you're, you're bringing it with you everywhere. And so it ends up becoming, I can't trust myself and the way that we, if you can't trust your hunger, right. We could even look at at cuz I know that you're, since you're an amazing writer, it's like hunger is our.
[00:21:50] Like when we eat it's vulnerability, right. We're, we're taking in stuff that not just, not weight wise, but it could have poison on it. Right? Like it could have a bacteria on it, listeria , [00:22:00] you know, it's, it's our interaction with the outside world. It represents intimacy, right? Like, oh, wow. I've never thought of it like that.
[00:22:07] Yeah. Like literally what we eat becomes our blood and bones and our hair. Right. and so if we can't intimately trust our own home, like metaphorically, it's like. You bring that distrust. I always tell clients, what's often we think with food and body, there are these like, you know, stress incidences that are like the weather, but what actually affects us more is like the climate, right.
[00:22:31] Of like how we grew up with the people around us and what they said the day to day consistent. Yeah, performing messaging. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, what's often harder is cuz we start to think because of how we develop. Oh, this is what I think versus, oh, that's actually my mom and my grandma think, you know, that they're in my head, is this what I think?
[00:22:51] And as adults, we can start to have more context. Oh, well, and again, it's all of this I think is to hopefully connect us to our [00:23:00] parents who struggled with food, not separate us from them, but like, wow. They grew. Believing that they grew up being rewarded for that. So how would they, how were they to know?
[00:23:08] So that's my point is we start to think this is what I'm thinking. I mean, I think this is, or we, we internalize the authorities in our life and it's also peers too. I think that's important for people to realize is that so that we can start to, you know, quote unquote, leave the nest. Eventually our peers become just as authoritative as our parents.
[00:23:26] 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Teenage girls.
[00:23:29] Laura McKowen: Yeah. . It's occurring to me as you're talking that there's this root thing here about honesty and food and body food is almost and body stuff is even though we talk about it, we talk around it, not about it. I have groups of friends that kind of don't eat. . There's always this base level tension in [00:24:00] the air around food.
[00:24:01] Right. But no, one's actually talking about what the fuck is going on. Like I hate, I am struggling with my body. Right now, or I'm really embarrassed about my weight at the moment, or I feel trapped by food and I don't, I, I love getting together with you all, but I don't wanna do a thing with food because I just am not okay with all of that yet.
[00:24:24] Like that's never talked about. It's almost more taboo than alcohol because we, we talk around it. We certainly have lots of conversations about food. It's very present, but not the truth. The truth is not present.
[00:24:40] Ali Shapiro: I'm so glad you put that out. Put that out there. Cuz there's. In these days now, too, if you wanna lose weight, you're considered like bad, right?
[00:24:48] it's like gotten even more polarized rather. And I think part of it is we think we don't know what we're really talking about. Right. It's like, yes, we're not just really talking about food. We're [00:25:00] talking about psychological safety, we're
[00:25:02] Laura McKowen: pain. Our pain, our emotion, all of the it's, the it's the like Kelly McDaniel said, it's like the mother hunger wound, like it is the most vulnerable spot in us to talk about.
[00:25:16] So I agree. We don't even know what we're talking about.
[00:25:19] Ali Shapiro: and I think that weight loss keep this what we are really talking. What we really want from weight loss is the Sal of life. Isn't gonna be what it is true. It's not gonna be uncomfortable. Right. Cause if you, when you hear people talk about weight loss.
[00:25:35] Oh yeah.
[00:25:35] Laura McKowen: You want safety, the safety of not ever being in pain again. Yeah.
[00:25:40] Ali Shapiro: I remember. I still remember where I was. It was 2012 of in Philadelphia in my coworking space. And I was struggling with something with my business and I was like, I no longer believe that weight loss would get me out of this. like, I was like, oh my
[00:25:56] Laura McKowen: God.
[00:25:57] I know. And
[00:25:59] Ali Shapiro: it was [00:26:00] like, oh, weight loss is like the belief that life isn't gonna be what it is like the uncomfortableness. Right. And it's like, people think confidence is something you get with weight loss versus. Confidence is a skillset of getting out of the hard stuff. And that's why people always wanna lose 10 more pounds.
[00:26:22] Cuz weight loss is not actually about the weight loss. And then it's also tells us we're spending our time. Well, well of course it, you know, it's, it's so layered.
[00:26:33] Laura McKowen: holy shit. I, I don't think I ever thought of that. I mean, I thought I did. I did believe that if I was a certain way, everything would be great and fine.
[00:26:42] And, and it wouldn't, I wouldn't have no more pain. I would have everything I wanted, even if I didn't, I would be okay with it. I definitely thought that, but I, but, um, that's such a like mind blowing idea. I, [00:27:00] I don't know if you, um, Listen to the jealousy and envy episode. Oh, it was
[00:27:05] Ali Shapiro: one of my favorite.
[00:27:06] Everyone listened to us. Okay. so,
[00:27:08] Laura McKowen: so it's in there too, because
[00:27:14] lots of us women especially are socialized to want to be the thin woman and to be envious of the. And what I realized was around the en the, the, the sticky envy that I needed to, not that, like, I actually have a deep longing for thing, but the other kind, which is I want what that person has or what I think it's giving them.
[00:27:38] Is safety. And that's what I, that's what I realized too. Like the success of social media. If I have that much, if I have that many followers, if I have that big of a platform, if I have that, those accolades, the, the best seller list, I will be
[00:27:50] Ali Shapiro: safe. I could so relate. because I'm, I have my own business.
[00:27:54] Right. And it's like, oh my God. And one of the patterns that we get into to protect ourselves in our story is [00:28:00] the compete pattern and the compete pattern is based on scarcity and never enough. And so it's like, if it's never enough. And so the question like we're always working on in our stories, if we're in that is like, what is
[00:28:11] Laura McKowen: enough?
[00:28:12] The competing piece is huge.
[00:28:14] Ali Shapiro: We're taught to compete in patriarchy with other women, because I used to do that in my own field. And I'm like, oh, I'm not comparing myself to any other men's social media followings. No, like no, never not at all. Not at all,
[00:28:28] Laura McKowen: but yeah. And, and don't you feel like your first envy was other girls' bodies that were smaller
[00:28:34] Ali Shapiro: than you?
[00:28:35] Yeah. Well, and it's, um, The other thing I wanted to say too, is cuz when we're younger, those are, there's another underlying narrative that is, well, you'll be chosen. You're being chosen. Right. It's like we all the Disney movies, how do they, like, how does the woman get rid of ? Right. And so I know like for me, when I was bullied in fifth grade, like I made the connection, well, oh, those girls are being chosen by the boys [00:29:00] and each other cuz they're pretty and thin.
[00:29:01] Right. So it's like that. And so we're taught again in the socialized mind. You wanna be chosen, you wanna, and even being a certain weight is, oh, you're pleasing to other people. So they're gonna choose you. Versus when we step into self authoring, it's like, I'm choosing this, you know, mm-hmm, , it's like, this is what I'm choosing.
[00:29:20] And part of is like, what is enough for me? Right. and. I just wanna say too, like for anyone out there, I mean, I hope this resonates, but clients often use the term, like I'll feel Bulletproof, right? Like, or not like, yes. Yeah. And that's that metaphor of like, oh, I'm not gonna feel I'm not gonna feel. And the good and the, in the bad, you know, I always tell my clients like beautiful people still get divorced.
[00:29:44] They still lose people. They still have health issues. You know, we, I mean, we know that intellectually, but we don't know. That's what often we don't believe. Right. Well, and then to kind of layer another layer of complexity. Like these days, you have to have a certain level of wealth, right? Like I had a, [00:30:00] to be healthy.
[00:30:01] Right. And I had a client. She was so liberated because her, one of her, um, her relatives was like, I. Said to all the females and the family, like, oh, you should be motivated looking at JLo, you know, cuz all her wedding pictures just came out and she was like, okay, JLo's job. She has, you know, probably trainers access.
[00:30:21] Like
[00:30:22] Laura McKowen: probably, I mean yeah, definitely.
[00:30:24] Ali Shapiro: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And uh, but it's like, there is this like. For you now to be, and time magazine did this, like several years ago, talking about how wellness is the new status symbol, because completely you need time, you need money, you need access, you need education about it, you know?
[00:30:42] And so now when we see like thin women, I think often there's this element of like, you know, even like, my husband grew up very lower class and he's like teeth. Like I never knew I, you know, teeth, like, do you have money to go to a dentist? It's like all this stuff that [00:31:00] visually yeah. Signals class, which, you know, in America is huge.
[00:31:04] Mm-hmm so we're, we're projecting all of this stuff onto it that we think it's, oh, it's the body. And it's like, no, it's all the things that are wrapped up into.
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[00:33:00] Laura McKowen: So hopefully people, what people are hearing is that in this very sort of like animated conversation and all these layers is not. That it's too much. And it's too complicated in that that, um, there's nothing to do about it. And, um, hopefully what, what I hope people are hearing is like, look, it's not your fault.
[00:33:26] It's not your fault. Yeah. And yeah. Then all, of course also it is your responsibility, but it's not your fault. Like this is, this is bigger than alcohol. This is bigger. This is something. That everyone has to learn to live with. And it's not that everyone has issues with food and body and stuff, but I it's gotta be a majority like a
[00:33:49] Ali Shapiro: vast majority.
[00:33:51] Would you say? Yeah. Oh yeah. And the American psychological association did a big survey with COVID and how, you know, we probably know this drinking and [00:34:00] eating, like the, it just all ramped up and it hasn't gone back down well, and I think what ends up happening is people feel alone because they think, well, I don't have an eating disorder, but eating disorder.
[00:34:10] Only really make up. I think last time I saw like 3% and I think the rest of us have, you know, disordered eating and not everyone obviously, but I, I think for sure the most, most people do what's the way in
[00:34:25] Laura McKowen: like the first or one or two things to start, you know, biting a piece of the, yeah, yeah. Here that actually makes a differe.
[00:34:37] You
[00:34:37] Ali Shapiro: know. Yeah. So I think the first thing is just like really let it land that food is safety and think about your earliest memories and what food came to mean to you. Now that we've talked about that, because I think part of what I see with my clients, you know, the first session we do with them is like getting them to see their stories and how they're not self sabotaging, their self protecting.
[00:34:58] And there's [00:35:00] so much relief of like, Oh, my God. Like, and cause there's so much shame of like, why can't I figure this out? Why can't I figure out how to feed myself? It's so basic, you know, interesting. Mm-hmm yeah. Versus like, why does this make so much sense? And so I think that's a first step. And then when it comes to body image and food, so body image is actually pretty fluid.
[00:35:21] We think it's like one way, but like, you know, you can feel okay. And then one day wake up feeling fat. And I say fat is not a feeling. It's a story. Right? So. What we wanna think about is when you start thinking, when you're, when you're genuinely not hungry and you start thinking about food, like a lot of my clients are like, it'll be three o'clock and they're like, I can't wait till I get home.
[00:35:42] And I'm thinking about what I can eat. Right. Is ask yourself what feels at risk. What am I, what is feeling. At risk right now to me. And I think that acronym that, I mean, I didn't call it out, but I'll call it out now is a great way to start. And again, [00:36:00] most of us aren't in our bodies. So we even have to just start coming from scanning.
[00:36:04] The outside world to like coming into ourselves is like, am I feeling tired? Am I feeling uncertain? Am I feeling inadequate? Which is the too much, not enough. Am I feeling lonely in some way? And what feels risky? That right now. And as you start to connect both feeling fat and food, that when you're genuinely not hungry, you'll start to see what you're actually afraid of.
[00:36:30] And that food is, will hopefully soothe you ground, you reward you from. Um, and I think asking that, like what, that's actually, the first exercise I give all my clients is it's a food diary that isn't really a food diary, but it's a risk diary whenever I start having. You know, mental gymnastics around food, what feels at risk?
[00:36:52] Like, what am I worried it's gonna happen?
[00:36:54] Laura McKowen: Do you have people then, do you have them look at their actual food and eating habits [00:37:00] right away?
[00:37:00] Ali Shapiro: No. Well, so it depends because some PE everyone comes in at a different point, but I think the food piece is people really understanding their blood sugar, um, because blood sugar actually, when it's de when.
[00:37:14] Deregulated gives us more anxiety, which if the most well worn path in our mind is what am I eating? We're gonna think that's the issue versus wait. This is a much more holistic, bigger thing going on. And so. I, I always use the example of, um, like a clean lake versus a dirty lake. And I hate to use clean and dirty cuz it calls to purity comfort.
[00:37:37] Right. But for
[00:37:39] Laura McKowen: it works. So yeah, but it works, but like you can actually see through, down to the bottom versus one, that's really muddy. Yeah.
[00:37:47] Ali Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Cause in the beginning you'll often be confusing, blood sugar, hunger, and, and I, I love starting with blood sugar because gut health takes a lot longer to heal, but blood sugar, how you eat at one meal sets you up for the next three hours.
[00:37:59] So [00:38:00] if you're feeling more anxiety, you may actually be thinking about food because your blood sugar's crashing and then the stress of what you have to do. So some people they'll come to me and they're like, I don't, I can't even. and I don't, I only offer experiments. I don't ever give people rules because I'm trying to help them develop their own authority.
[00:38:18] So I'm like, your body will tell you so some people are ready for the food and they need that kind of, whew. I need some sort of grounding and then other people are like, I know what works for me. I've seen a, I work with a functional medicine doctor. I, you know, but I'm not doing it, you know? So then we start with that emotional stuff.
[00:38:36] Um, first, so I think people, and this is part of the self authoring process is what, what are you most curious about rather than like what you're so frustrated about? What, what intrigues you and resonates the most and start there because you can trust yourself. Um,
[00:38:52] Laura McKowen: what do you mean by that? Like what are you curious about?
[00:38:54] Ali Shapiro: What? Yeah, so some people feel like, um, They may, you [00:39:00] know, someone for example has anxiety, right. And they know that it's in their periphery again, because it takes a while to stop tying everything back to weight loss. Cuz we've been, I would say indoctrinated I'll use the religious terms since we've kind of touched on that.
[00:39:14] Yeah. But you may have read a couple of books. There's some. There's some great books out there. Um, Dr. Ellen VA's book, anatomy of anxiety, you know, how blood sugar and food. So you may be like, oh, but you're still measuring weight loss. Right? So it's like, if you're curious of like, wait, I actually think if I could reduce my anxiety, right.
[00:39:33] We tend to be all or nothing, but if I could reduce my anxiety, this would feel, then I could tackle the emotional. But some people are like, I can't the, the food, I can't even touch that. Like I'm really, oh my God. This is what's resonating the safety piece. This is what, where it's at for me. Got
[00:39:50] Laura McKowen: it. Okay. So, so you're saying what's what you're most curious about in, in these conversations?
[00:39:55] Like where is my, what am I naturally attracted to do? What is my intuition telling me to go [00:40:00] toward?
[00:40:00] Ali Shapiro: Yes, yes, yes. Got it. Okay.
[00:40:04] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Um, how do you. How do you, um,
[00:40:12] Ali Shapiro: how do I wanna say this?
[00:40:16] Laura McKowen: The diet, the diet mentality, the sort of diet brain that we have, um, Because that seems to be, I guess that's would you say that's the same as weight loss?
[00:40:28] I mean, equating everything to weight loss.
[00:40:31] Ali Shapiro: Yeah. I mean, diet culture, kind of a thumbnail sketch of that is like thinness at any cost, right? Yes. Right. Um, and so how I think a really good bridge for people, because the idea that you can just extract that because also diet culture is a nesting doll.
[00:40:46] Patriarchy white supremacy, capitalism, right? It's like mm-hmm . Oh, okay. It's like all this stuff and, and it's the water we swim in. So the idea that we might, I mean, I feel like I'm extracted from diet culture, but it's also been, you know, I've been on this path for a while. [00:41:00] Um, but I think what I tell clients to do is focus on safety signals, because if you focus on the physical safety signals of the right foods for your body movement, right.
[00:41:10] Again, and, and, and this takes time, sleep sun. Water, you know, those are the basic things, your body, if you're, if you're, when it comes to weight, your body will find its natural place. If it's, if it's getting the, the safety signals it needs. Um, and then, and then focus on the emotional safety pieces, cuz that safety
[00:41:30] Laura McKowen: signals, meaning your body feels like it can relax because you're yeah.
[00:41:34] Giving it you're allowed helping it be.
[00:41:37] Ali Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Like your body has needs to keep the lights on. Right? Like, um, and again, those safety signals and, and this is, I think important often adults, we focus on like, you know, and even healthcare people do this well, this will help you live 10 years longer. That as actually isn't motivating to adults, we have so many other competing commitments.
[00:41:55] We can't wrap our heads around that, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like, you [00:42:00] know that that's not a need right now to live 10 years on
[00:42:03] Laura McKowen: our's far off. Yes. Yeah, yeah,
[00:42:05] Ali Shapiro: yeah. But if we start to see improvement in our personal or work life, we are, we will stick with things. So I call them like quick fixes and it's like, you know, we talked before we were talking, you were saying like, you're, um, You've been eating a lot of sugar cuz of your birthday and your, your boyfriend's mother's in town and it's fine.
[00:42:22] And you could like, oh, I'm not sleeping as well. I'm having crazy dreams. Right? So it's like, okay, if I can start connecting these shifts, this is how we. UN unconnecting things to just weight loss, but it's like, do I feel more stable? Do I feel more able to speak the truth? Right. I mean, these more instantaneous things, do I, do I find that during transitions, I actually have more stamina if I don't yeah.
[00:42:47] Try to work through lunch and then try to quote unquote catch up, you know? Um, so connecting it to actually making your life better and making you like more resilient, more creative, more just. [00:43:00] More satisfaction in life. Um, yeah, that can start those sending your body, the safety signals, and then that starts to shift your relationship to food and body.
[00:43:10] And then, um, I think the emotional safety signals, right? When am I starting to feel, you know, that. That creepy Crawley or I'm, I'm starting to think, what are they gonna think? What, what are they gonna, how are they gonna feel? And again, we don't wanna not think of that, but we wanna start with, what do I wanna get out of this when I'm feeling at risk?
[00:43:28] What's important to me here, what's important to me here. Um, and I think then you start to calm the emotional. So then the eating that we, that is unhelpful. And I, we say out of alignment with goals, because, you know, sometimes you really like, you know, I went to a friend's birthday party. I wanted birthday cake.
[00:43:49] Like that was my goal was to participate, you know? Exactly. I don't wanna be eating birthday cake every day that I would probably get sick of it, but it, it wouldn't be great for me every day. Um, but you [00:44:00] can start to get into the nuances of a. When do I really wanna eat this versus I'm doing this because I feel at risk in some way, and this is I'm turning to this for safety mm-hmm
[00:44:12] But I think focusing on safety is like a holistic health orientation, versus it all has to be about weight loss, but it also honors that people may wanna lose weight and maybe they need to, and I would ask, we don't really know I would offer. We don't really know if you do. Yeah,
[00:44:30] Laura McKowen: I know it's so it's, so I've noticed twice in the past three years when I, and I think we actually talked about this, um, and this is maybe moving into a slightly different topic about just how normal it is to gain weight in certain periods of time.
[00:44:47] Ali Shapiro: Um,
[00:44:50] Laura McKowen: the two times that I have gone back to. Wanting to control my weight and dieting and restricting and just some kind of [00:45:00] plan, you know, I need a plan. you found at risk, right? You found at risk. Yeah. To right when COVID hit, um, that I did that. And then, uh, when I was in the middle of trying to finish this book or middle of writing this book, which was over the like winter early spring this year, and it was, I was.
[00:45:23] It pushed me so hard. I was just, there were not just the book, but there was lots of factors, but the, I felt at risk, I totally felt at risk. And, um, both times I was like, oh, I'm gonna do intermittent fasting. And, and the, the, the wild thing is like intermittent fasting might be great for some people.
[00:45:41] That's not about that. It's more getting reli. I felt myself getting into that rigid religious and you get this high. From thinking like, oh, this is gonna fix it. This is the thing. This is the answer. And you have a little [00:46:00] success at the beginning and then it just becomes about, it just becomes stressful.
[00:46:04] To, to me, my body hates it. It will always hate it. it's for whatever reason, probably because of all the, you know, well, one, I think it's just not natural for, for most of us to, to obsess like that. But also like I have too much trauma with eating disorders and stuff. My body's just like, fuck you. No, this is never gonna work.
[00:46:25] And, and I only could see it after the fact always. So, so maybe what I'm asking is like, Talk about the, the normalcy of fluctuation and also that this is a forever process because like I know better at this point, I, I really know better , you know, and, and I have all the information and I don't, this isn't something I'm living with every day, but it snuck up on.
[00:46:57] And in the background and I didn't even realize until after the fact, [00:47:00] oh, that's what you were doing,
[00:47:01] Ali Shapiro: right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that in truth, in truth with food, we talk about like, are you catching your story sooner and sooner? That's part of the measure. That's part of what we measure is because in the beginning, and again, our stories, they are, they have their own energy to them, right?
[00:47:21] Like, and they're, so they overwhelm our system. and they put us our amygdala in black and white thinking. Right. And so it's like, right. And so the goal, especially in the beginning is catch it after the fact are you catching, you know, if you went to the social event and you binged and all that stuff. All right.
[00:47:38] That was great research, right? Like. Let's let's, let's, let's organize what actually happened there. Right. And then as you build your capacity to be with both joy and you know, and vulnerability and, and the heart life, right. all the emotions we don't wanna wanna often deal with. You can start to anticipate.
[00:47:58] Right and be like, oh, this is my pattern. So [00:48:00] when you go to write the next book, it's gonna be like, I can, I can be ready. That the more at re when I hit peak risk deadlines are, oh, it's getting, it's getting closer that people are gonna be reading this is it gonna right when all the risk, okay, this is what I'm gonna do.
[00:48:14] So what do I wanna do in those moments? So. Yeah. Starting to, as clients say, oh, I'm on to myself. You know, like I'm on.
[00:48:22] Laura McKowen: Yeah. We talk about it's. I, we do that in, in alcohol and drinking all the time, but again, it's just so different because you can just, you it's sobriety is abstinence. Right. We never have that option.
[00:48:31] Yeah.
[00:48:32] Ali Shapiro: Well, and I will say, I mean, I think a big part that we do intrus with food is work on as we change our stories, you know, Eastern philosophy. Considers the ego, like you want a healthy ego. They define ego differently than Western psychology, but it's like healthy ego to feel like you can make your mark on the world.
[00:48:48] Right. And so as we actually change our story and go through the hard things with the, the x-ray vision that we've talked a little bit about today, you know, it's like your capacity gets bigger, so it's [00:49:00] not. The stress and you've said this and you're, I love it. It's like life doesn't get easier. We get better.
[00:49:05] Right. That's your line. And then I always quote, and it's like, as the stories, as we live through our stories and ch choose differently and realize, oh, this isn't about food. This is about, this is about. Getting through a deadline and I want it to be successful and, and envy and all it's like, wait, what's important to me here.
[00:49:24] What do I wanna get outta this process? We can have, we have bigger capacity to then choose differently and see the story in, in different ways. But it requires us getting more and clear on what metrics and like really matter to us. So that's. But in the beginning, you're gonna see it after the fact.
[00:49:41] That's like, that's just like plan for it. Of
[00:49:44] Laura McKowen: course. yeah. Plan for that. Just know that that, no, it's, that's important to say, cuz we always want to be better. yeah, yeah, yeah. Fully better, you know, and, and to never go back to that, and it's been, it's been a long time for me, like, like you, you know? Yeah. [00:50:00] So this is, it can be like, really, you know, you, but, but I did, I, I, once I realized it was like, okay, you know, yeah.
[00:50:07] I didn't bang, beat myself up about it. And, and oddly. You know, I think my body had to like, hold onto more weight in that time. Like it, and, and the stress of trying to make it not happen, trying to like lose weight or what, you know, the control made it worse. Like, it's amazing how, when you re you're able to just relax into it, it's not like I, I didn't lose weight, but I just, I stopped seeing my body as such a problem.
[00:50:36] Ali Shapiro: Yeah. And, and. Two things, is that what I loved is you got re embodied, right. Which is where your intuition and, and creativity access. So as we start just focusing on the weight, we've objectified our own self, which is how we've been taught, right? Yes. And so then we miss out on all the wisdom and intuition that would actually help with the process oh my God.
[00:50:59] So we end up creating. [00:51:00] We end up creating these self-fulfilling prophecies cuz we leave the body. Another thing that you just made me think about of is when truth with food, we call it the Delta and, and I it's how, what would I have done before? Right. So we're not trying to get to any end point because life is not like that.
[00:51:17] Right. And this is the metaphor, even of our weight, always fluctuating, like life is gonna come at us. Right. in all kinds of ways. Mm-hmm . But it's like, like you said, like, oh, I, I caught myself. I was there for a little bit, but I didn't go down the spiral. I didn't like you, you might have started, but you didn't finish.
[00:51:34] Right. Like you came back to yourself. Yeah. And that's where the self trust is, is like, oh, what would I have done? 10 years ago even, or, or three years ago or, or, and you have to give yourself, it's like, I'm not drinking through this. Right? Like , we have to think of all the stuff of like how far we've come.
[00:51:53] And it's like to me. Okay. So you did that, but you caught yourself and you didn't, you didn't spiral. That's a huge win to [00:52:00] me. You got further than you would've before. And that's cuz we expect ourselves to beat all or nothing, right? Like, oh, there's safety and perfectionism. That's what perfectionism about.
[00:52:08] It's like
[00:52:10] Laura McKowen: the whole safety thing is wild.
[00:52:13] Ali Shapiro: It is, it is. It's so layered. And we start to
[00:52:17] Laura McKowen: realize that I think it's so helpful to, to look it's so helpful to look at it that.
[00:52:22] Ali Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's another thing for people is to realize that ultimately, a lot of our stories come back to rejection and losses and, and abandonment, and yet we then abandon ourselves.
[00:52:35] And so it creates this self-fulfilling prophecy. So part of the healing is like, Again, coming back to ourself of like, what do I need here? What do I wanna get out of whatever the event is, you know, kind of reverse engineer, the satisfaction of it. Um, yeah, but stick staying with ourselves. And as you know, often they, psychological safety is also termed as like having your own back, you know, mm-hmm, , it's like, because we've got, [00:53:00] and we have to be with our own bodies, uh, cuz we're, we're the constant in our life.
[00:53:04] So if we're not friends with ourselves, you know, , you.
[00:53:08] Laura McKowen: one last question. Yeah. What do you do if people are like, okay, all this is great. I hear you. I get it. But I still hate the body that I'm in. Yeah. And I want it to be different. I hate it. Right. Yeah. And I, and I am not convinced that I will be at peace or be happy at the
[00:53:30] Ali Shapiro: size shape, et C.
[00:53:33] Yeah. I mean, that's most of my clients, , I'm sure,
[00:53:37] Laura McKowen: like, I love, I love all your thoughts and this is all great, but I still actually truly I'm miserable in
[00:53:44] Ali Shapiro: my body. Yeah. Yeah. And I say, all right, let's start there. like, we don't have to change. Like, this is where you are right now. And. It. And I think this is where it gets nuanced is some people are really [00:54:00] uncomfortable internally.
[00:54:00] Like if you are binging a lot, if you're not eating the foods that work for you, it's really uncomfortable to be there. You know? Yeah. Like when I was Bing you don't sleep well. I had, I, part of my IBS was from binging. Right. I reflux and I think
[00:54:14] Laura McKowen: that's clothes don't fit. You feel uncomfortable all the time.
[00:54:17] You don't move through the, your body. Doesn't move through the world in a way that feels good.
[00:54:21] Ali Shapiro: Yeah. I mean, in developmental psychology, literally the chronic pain we experience, if we have the right support is called optimal conflict, it's like, okay, if there's a pain that you can't, you can't like body discomfort is a huge one.
[00:54:37] It's like, okay, maybe I'll actually do the developmental work. Cuz it's hard work. You know, sobriety is hard work, right. but if it's enough of a pain. You'll do the work to actually change your story. Um, and I always tell my clients, you like a lot of clients, it locks, it takes six months to lock in, but they start feeling a little bit more free each time they make these [00:55:00] connections.
[00:55:00] And then it kind of comes together, you know, in Eastern philosophy they say, To go fast, go slow . Which is like you
[00:55:07] Laura McKowen: were, I know the most annoying. Yes. So true. It's so annoying.
[00:55:12] Ali Shapiro: as someone who prizes efficiency and is like, never feels she has enough time, but you, um, but you talked about with diets, like, oh, it works at first and then it doesn't, it stops working.
[00:55:23] Right. And then actually we know diets are some of the biggest cause of, of weight gain, but we have been taught that like, oh, if I start off slow, It's just gonna continue to be slow or might never happen. Right. Um, mm-hmm and so I think we have to start realizing, like, let's start with the discomfort exactly where it is.
[00:55:39] I'm not expecting you to feel differently, you know, and maybe you do need to start with the food with experimenting, with how your blood sugar, so you can get a little bit more because when we start to figure out what foods work for us from a psychological standpoint, we start to shift our relationship with our body.
[00:55:55] It's like, oh, those cravings and hunger. those weren't bad. [00:56:00] Right. We pathologize those and in diet culture, you're rewarded. It's like, oh, those were messengers. Those were symptoms. And so then you start to catch on that. All the discomfort is a symptom. It's, it's an invitation, you know, to, to some more depth.
[00:56:13] So I don't know if that's helpful, but I think it's fine. No, that's
[00:56:16] Laura McKowen: super helpful. I think that's sort of the question that maybe would've been hanging in the balance for people like okay. But I still hate my body, you know? Yeah. I'm really unhappy in
[00:56:25] that.
[00:56:25] Ali Shapiro: I. I get it. I look back at my journals and I'm like, oh my God, I really hated myself.
[00:56:30] Like I forget now. That's all I talked
[00:56:32] Laura McKowen: about. Yeah.
[00:56:33] Ali Shapiro: All I, me too, right? Oh my God. Oh, if I lose, I'll do this many calories. And then if I lose two pounds, I'll give myself a pedicure. Like
[00:56:43] Laura McKowen: it's so sad. It was, I know a lot of en life, energy and years wasted on that. It sucks. Yeah.
[00:56:50] Ali Shapiro: Yeah.
[00:56:52] Laura McKowen: Well I'm how can people, what do you offer.
[00:56:55] In terms of ways people can work with you. What? Yeah. What's
[00:56:59] Ali Shapiro: out there. [00:57:00] Yeah. So I have my own podcast that you've been on. It's one of the most popular episodes. um, oh, where we about you and sugar. Yeah. And I can't wait to have you back on for your next book. Um, it's called insatiable and that's available everywhere.
[00:57:12] Um, and then I have two, I, I have my truths with food process that we do with, uh, groups and individuals. And I also have my truth. It's called the TRUS coaching certification where I'm I. Ch, um, training people in this methodology for them to make it their own because, um, it just, it's, it's really the structure of, we often can have tools here and there, right.
[00:57:34] Like EFT or, and those are all great. But the true framework is like, why do we have to tap so much? why do we have to like, you know, like do all of this stuff so much. And it's cuz our stories just create like constant overwhelm. Um, so that, and then I'm I'm on Instagram at Ali, M Shapiro, S H a P I R. Um, and of course I have a newsletter, um, that I, that I, you know, send emails out here and there, but the podcast and is the big, [00:58:00] is the big thing.
[00:58:01] Laura McKowen: Well, thanks lady. It was great to have you on and, um, yeah, go, go check her out, everyone.
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