Being human means sometimes we feel deeply alone. For those who also suffer from addiction, that feeling of isolation is persistent. It’s a low hum that follows a person everywhere. Chris Marshall knows these feelings well and he’s here today to share how listening to those voices have almost killed him on several occasions. And how he’s developed a support network to make them less loud. Chris learned how powerful the experience of connection can be and it, literally, helped to save his life.
Being human means sometimes we feel deeply alone. Cut off from other people. For most people, it passes quickly.
For others, especially those who also suffer from addiction, that feeling of isolation is persistent. It’s a low hum that follows a person everywhere. Part of the reason why some drink is to numb that feeling and turn down the voices that whisper why we’re alone.
Chris Marshall knows these feelings well and he’s here today to share how listening to those voices have almost killed him on several occasions. And how he’s developed a support network to make them less loud. Chris learned how powerful the experience of connection can be and it, literally, helped to save his life. It led him to create Sans Bar, a community connection space that specializes in serving extravagantly amazing, zero alcohol cocktails.
You may know Chris if you’re a member of The Luckiest Club, the sobriety support community Laura founded where he’s one of the meeting leaders.
BONUS: Chris and Laura recorded some material just for TMST Plus members. Become a TMST Plus member to hear some of his top tips and secrets for creating an inclusive space, his favorite drink for the hottest summer day and the TWO WORD genius answer to “Do you want a drink?” and “Why aren’t you drinking?”
Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/57-chrismarshall-on-how-connection-can-save-your-life
Spotify playlist for this episode:
Here’s the transcript: https://tell-me-something-true.simplecast.com/episodes/chris-marshall-on-how-connection-can-save-your-life/transcript
Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Become a TMST member today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free.
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TMST is hosted by Laura McKowen, the bestselling author of We Are The Luckiest and founder of The Luckiest Club. Follow the show and Laura on Instagram.
Chris Marshall final
[00:00:00]Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. Welcome. So, because we're human at some point, we're all going to feel deeply alone, cut off from other people. And for some of us, it passes quickly, but for others, especially those who suffer from addiction, that feeling of isolation is pretty persistent. It's like this low hum that just follows us everywhere.
[00:00:24] And part of the reason why some of us drink or use drugs or whatever is to numb that feeling to turn down the voices that tell us all the reasons why we are alone. Chris Marshall knows those feelings very well. And he's here today to share how listening to them almost killed him on several occasions and how he's developed a support network to make them less loud.
[00:00:51] Chris learned how powerful the experience of connection can be. And it literally helped save his life. It also led him to create [00:01:00] sands bar, a community connection space that specializes in serving up amazing zero proof cocktails and. Helping folks, sober folks have an experience. You may know Chris, if you're a member of the luckiest club, the sobriety support community, I founded in 2020, he's one of the meeting leaders.
[00:01:20] And I asked him to come on and talk, uh, about all of this. We also recorded some material just for TMS D plus members. So if you wanna hear some of his top tips for and secrets for creating inclusive spaces, That's there. And he also shares his favorite drink for the hottest summer day and also his two word.
[00:01:45] Just two words. Genius. Answer to those questions. Do you wanna drink and why aren't you drinking? So remember paid TMS T members are the engine behind this project. The membership help us pay for the cost of making the [00:02:00] show and keeping it coming your way. You can find the link in show notes or head over to TMS.
[00:02:05] tpo.com 5, 10, 20 bucks a month makes a massive difference. And with every episode we post a Spotify playlist, just because it's fun and it deepens the experience. So check it. All right. Here's Chris.
[00:02:28] Hey. Hey, my friend. Good to have you. I figured we'd kick off by reading something you actually posted on Instagram. Just this morning, you, you write these beautiful pros slash poem pieces. Um, But this is what it says for as long as I can remember. I've always been the only one, the one who didn't fit in the one who didn't belong.
[00:02:55] So there's something specific about this because it's [00:03:00] not just that you don't belong or fit in. It's also that you're the only one who doesn't fit in or belong. And. . What are your, what are your earliest memories of that?
[00:03:18]Chris Marshall: Uh,
[00:03:22] the nursery, when I was a baby, like, like I remember vaguely, you know, uh, being a baby and feeling like I didn't belong or that no one wanted me, like from my earliest memories, I've always felt like, um, was different or I had done something wrong or mm-hmm yeah. I just like, I wasn't the, the one you want, you wanted to pick mm-hmm like, I was just born that way.
[00:03:51] And, uh, the older I got, I started gathering all this evidence to affirm that, that this was [00:04:00] true, that I was, um, the person that would get picked, picked last, like, yeah, that was just my lot in.
[00:04:09]Laura McKowen: do you have any clues of where you first absorbed that message?
[00:04:16]Chris Marshall: Well, I know there's one particular instance in my life, right?
[00:04:18] Like there's a, there's, you know, a very clear line in the sand where I was a kid, you know, without, you know, any blemishes on my like, record and then. You know, I, I, I injure or I perceived that I injure like my dad. I, um, I was a kid, I was five years old and, um, my dad had mental health problems emerge. And around the same time I broke his fish tank.
[00:04:48] And when that happened, it was, there were two instances that were totally unrelated, but in my five year old mind, I made them related. In fact, I. Uh, the [00:05:00] breaking up my father's mental state, the fish tank, and that I had done this and that I was responsible. And that's the first time I ever Bo that responsibility of like hurting someone else.
[00:05:12] And as hard as the adults in my life worked to disprove that for me and tell me that that wasn't true. It was too late. I had already made that connection. I'd already. Determined that I was guilty and I was gonna sentence myself to a life of disconnection, a life of being away. Mm-hmm from people because I, I hurt people.
[00:05:40] I break people. Mm-hmm um, this is what I was thinking at five and six years old. It literally started that early. And then I just kept. Following the wrong bread crumbs, right. Following the, all the evidence of my life.
[00:05:55]Laura McKowen: That's, that's what we do though. You know, we, we, we find the evidence to [00:06:00] prove what we believe.
[00:06:02] Mm-hmm unconsciously too. It's not like you're sitting there parsing through things. It feels very true.
[00:06:10]Chris Marshall: Absolutely. I mean, it felt in every, every bit of evidence that I found. Seemed real. It seemed as though it was pointing to this truth, that I was a bad kid, that I was a kid who not only caused my dad to get sick, but my parents to divorce and, you know, was feeling responsible for divorce.
[00:06:28] When did that? Um, like, uh, a year after he got sick. Okay. Um, he, his decline was rapid and for most of my childhood, I believed that. that my, that my mother left my father, that, that, you know, when he, when he was the, the sickest, she just decided to, to leave him. Um, and that's the truth that I held onto for the longest time until someone told me otherwise, like, no one, I didn't stop to ask.
[00:06:56] I just assumed that, um, when you get sick [00:07:00] people abandon you, people leave you.
[00:07:02]Laura McKowen: Well, that's another brutal message, right? yeah, can't be broken or you're gonna get left.
[00:07:13]Chris Marshall: Mm-hmm and no one will want you. And again, because I'm my father's son, like, I'm like, okay, no one will want me,
[00:07:22]Laura McKowen: how were you as a kid? Like how did you try to compensate for that?
[00:07:28] How did you care? How did you learn to carry that?
[00:07:32]Chris Marshall: I don't think I was consciously carrying around. Burden this responsibility. Um, but I definitely know that it was there in the background. I moved through the world kind of at a distance from everyone else and really pushing people away. Um, it was this weird self, you know, imposed prison where like, I would want to have friends and wanna like [00:08:00] make friends as a.
[00:08:01] but then the second someone got close to me, I would push them away. And I can almost recall that feeling. It was this, like, you're getting too close. You're getting too close and you're gonna get hurt. Not I'm gonna get hurt. You're gonna get hurt. That's so
[00:08:16]Laura McKowen: interesting that you're gonna get hurt. Like I'm, I'm not a, I'm not safe.
[00:08:23] Mm-hmm is that what you thought? Yeah,
[00:08:25]Chris Marshall: I broke the strongest man. I knew. Mm. My dad was an amateur box. and, um, what we believe now is that he probably had some TBI stuff, um, along with schizophrenia. Um, but we believe that the TBI stuff and the, um, head trauma stuff was something that we just didn't understand back then.
[00:08:48] No. Right. But he was a boxer. So he had a boxer's body. This, this was not a small man. It was not a weak man. Um, my first memory. My [00:09:00] first real memory is running down. Um, the, the street that we lived on on his shoulders, he used to jog and use me as a weight. Wow. Like this was not a small man. Um, and I broke him.
[00:09:15] I didn't realize, or, or learned till later that he had divorced my mom because he was afraid that he was gonna hurt us. And he didn't want his children to grow up, witnessing his Dem.
[00:09:29]Laura McKowen: When did you find that
[00:09:30]Chris Marshall: out? Oh, like 16 when it was wow. Yeah. Too late. I was already like, I'd already made, made the, yeah. I was like too late.
[00:09:41] It's I wish I would've learned this earlier. Thank you. Um, but yeah, for the longest time I, I blamed my mom and I didn't realize that she had begged him. Like, let's work this out. Let's please. I don't, I don't want this for you. I want to. Help you and connect with you like this [00:10:00] is, this is what, this is what we're, what, what marriage means.
[00:10:05] It means to move through the hard things together mm-hmm and, uh, he was like, no, I don't want that. I really want my kids to, to have a life where this is not their story. Wow. I won't be there, but I also won't be there to like harm them and.
[00:10:25] It only speaks to the kind of man that he was both before he got sick. And when he got sick
[00:10:32]Laura McKowen: at some point drugs and alcohol entered the picture. When was that? And what was going on and how did it happen?
[00:10:41]Chris Marshall: You know, the first like introduction of alcohol into my like life and understanding what alcohol was, was very early on.
[00:10:48] My, my father's father. Wasn't alcoholic, um, or abused alcohol. And I was keenly aware that that [00:11:00] was a poison. And I did not want to, to consume that. I, I knew that very early on, I made a pact with myself. It maybe 10 or 11, like, you know, before you become a teenager that I was never gonna consume alcohol until I was 21.
[00:11:16] That was just, that was it. I get to. high school and realize that alcohol is a currency. That's how you connect with people. Um, that's how, you know, who's cool. Like alcohol was a currency in high school and if you wanted to have connections, cause again, I, as much as I was getting into troubles and in school suspension, um, suspended, like I was doing all, all the, you know, behaviors.
[00:11:51] I still wanted friends. Yeah. Um, and so there was, there was a real decision I had to make. It was like, okay, you can either keep this [00:12:00] promise to yourself and not consume alcohol until you're an adult, um, or 18, um, or you can use this social currency to make those connections. And I didn't take that decision lightly.
[00:12:14] Um, I knew exactly what alcohol was, but the. the opportunity for connection was worth the risk. Mm-hmm the chance to be with friends and have friends and share drinks with friends and go on, uh, the golf course that I worked on on Mondays and drink with my friends. It was just, it was too great to pass up.
[00:12:36] Yeah. And so I had my first drink at 16.
[00:12:40]Laura McKowen: And was it kind of, you were off, was, did that light go on that they talk about,
[00:12:46]Chris Marshall: it was like Vegas. Lighting up. Wow. It was, it was this all at once. Like blinding, searing light. And I, I, I [00:13:00] had everything that feeling of everything I had ever wanted, including absolution, uh, in that first drink immediately, I felt forgiven for breaking my father.
[00:13:11] I felt connected to these boys that I was with. I was with a group of boys. And I felt connected to boys, which I had always struggled with being a, you know, the only ma uh, boy in my house and, um, being surrounded by by women, my whole life, like, yeah, I was, I was in with the guys, I was forgiven of my sins.
[00:13:31] I was cleansed and made a new person. It was a baptism in every sense of the word.
[00:13:38]Laura McKowen: This is so crazy because what you just described sounds like what a lot of people experience. In, you know, doing psychedelics or, um, you know, I like not all drug experiences or bad experiences like this probably was, did you an incredible favor?
[00:13:57]Chris Marshall: Uh, yeah. I mean it removed, [00:14:00] you know, at that time a decade and some change worth of like shame and guilt about hurting my, my father and breaking up my family and yeah. For, for that, for that first drink, it just, something happened. It just all went away and it, and, and it didn't go away. It just, it was on pause.
[00:14:21]Laura McKowen: Sure. Well, that's enough. What I realized, you know, when you don't have that pause ever, you've never had a pause. It's like, that feels like a miracle.
[00:14:29]Chris Marshall: It was, it was weightlessness mm-hmm it was weightlessness. And so quickly after that first drink and that feeling of weight late weightlessness gravity returns.
[00:14:40] And I felt just as heavy as I did before. I'm like, oh, Ugh. Okay. So you have to keep drinking to like be a wait list. Okay. Um, simple enough. So it didn't take much, you know, I think the, the second time I ever drank, I got my first DUI get out.
[00:14:59]Laura McKowen: [00:15:00] I know you went, I knew you like went down fast, but I didn't know.
[00:15:02] It was the second time you
[00:15:04]Chris Marshall: drank. Oh no, no, no, no. I went down so fast and I mean, That's why people, you know, like you got sober so young, like how did that happen? Like, because I literally was on this accelerated program, right? Like like, yeah, I was blazing through, um, there was not gonna be a, a long protracted, you know, this was.
[00:15:28]Laura McKowen: It was your only tool and when you put that much weight in it, like you're gonna go, you're gonna pour yourself into that container, right?
[00:15:38]Chris Marshall: Yeah. There was, there was no protracted long decades, long war against alcohol. It was nuclear mm-hmm it was, it was over before it really got a chance to, to start. So, uh, second time I drank, I got a DUI flipped, my mom's car totaled.
[00:15:56] ran through an intersection, ran through someone's backyard, almost like [00:16:00] hit two kids where they were sleeping in their house. I went to jail for the first time at 16. Yeah. I mean, so the feeling of weightlessness, uh, came with now a criminal record, but it was still worth it to me. Like it was always worth it to me.
[00:16:16] Mm-hmm because it was like, all I had to do was just drink again and I would feel that weightlessness and the weird thing about. my high school years. I was, I became a heavy alcohol user again, immediately. Mm-hmm I mean, I, I remember getting out of jail and waiting for my mom to, you know, come home and find out that we didn't have a car and drinking immediately.
[00:16:43] Right. Drinking, whatever beer is left in the fridge. Yeah. So I had this very serious alcohol, uh, dependence issue going. But at the same time, I was the editor of my newspaper as a sophomore. I lettered in [00:17:00] newspaper in journalism. Uh, I did once some competitions, I was drinking in the dark room of my high school and, you know, banging , you know, banging out, you know, an editorial and my journalism teacher finally caught up to me and realized that I was drinking to get.
[00:17:22] My work done at school and, uh, so grateful for her. Um, she just said that this was not me. Like, this is this isn't you? Mm. Like you, you don't need to do this. Like, you're a good writer. You're, you're worthy of friendship. You're worthy of being loved and accepted for who you are and you don't have the drink.
[00:17:44] Wow. To have those things. Um, but I just didn't believe. I didn't believe anyone. I didn't believe anyone when they said that they loved me or that they cared about me. There was just too much evidence to the contrary. There was too much evidence that I was a monster [00:18:00] that I was, um, that I was going to become the, the kind of monster that men who were sick become.
[00:18:09] And I, and I wanted to too good in the world. Like that never changed. The only thing that changed was. the way I found connection was through alcohol. Right. And alcohol for me was a great equalizer. I was middle, middle class in a suburb suburb of Houston, where everyone was upper middle class to lower upper class.
[00:18:32] Like everyone was affluent mm-hmm . I felt different for that reason. I felt different because my father had schizophrenia. I felt different because I was the only black child in most of my. Social and educational experiences. Mm-hmm I felt different for all these reasons. And when I drank, I felt equal alcohol enough, alcohol will knock everyone out.
[00:18:55] Right. And that's the, that to me was just so empowering [00:19:00] in some weird way. Like I felt like we were all equal when we were drunk, because I was showing up to school drunk because I was, you know, getting other kids drunk at school. I did not technically graduate high school. I had to finish in summer school because mm-hmm , I just wasn't passing my classes.
[00:19:18] They let me walk. But that was again, another point of shame. Totally. I knew I didn't belong there. Ugh. Like I knew they were only letting me go through because of who I, because of my, my, my ability to Finese and like my ability to like, you know, be charming. But I knew that like, I didn't belong
[00:19:35]Laura McKowen: there. Oh, that's such.
[00:19:38] God, it hurts me to hear you say that, but I get it like, yeah, it's just more proof,
[00:19:44]Chris Marshall: more proof you don't belong. So what
[00:19:46]Laura McKowen: happened? What got you to finally say, I, I gotta get sober.
[00:19:51]Chris Marshall: I get sober at 23.
[00:19:54]Laura McKowen: Okay. And you got, is, is it because you got another DUI? Like what, what happened?
[00:19:59]Chris Marshall: I got another [00:20:00] DUI. Um, and that one was just like sad again, sad because I.
[00:20:05] Wasn't partying. I was literally driving my friend's car through campus and I, and I knew better mm-hmm like the officer that taught me was a campus officer and he is like, what are you doing? I'm like, you know what? I have no BI this isn't even necessary. I was very honest. And I was like, just take me to jail.
[00:20:22] I've been, I've done this before. Um, it was, so it was so sad and, um, you know, I was, I was fortunate to like, um, be able to. Yeah. In, in Texas, a DUI is not same as the DWI mm-hmm . So DWI is kind of what DUIs are nationally. So I was kind of fortunate. I was still under 21, so it's, it's a misdemeanor. It's not, you know, not, not as serious of a crime.
[00:20:48] Uh, so I was able to move on with my life, but I was on probation and I was drinking on probation. I was showing up to this, this person's office in downtown San Antonio, drunk for an [00:21:00] alcohol offense. Like it was clear that I needed help. And so, yeah.
[00:21:05]Laura McKowen: Where'd you find it? Like, what was your entree into recovery?
[00:21:09]Chris Marshall: Uh, the first go around was a treatment center that was kind of middle of the road and, uh, checked myself out. Didn't belong there. I looked at everyone, they were much older than I was, and it just made no sense for a 23 year old kid to be in rehab. It was dumb. It was like, who goes to rehab at 23? So I signed myself out of treatment.
[00:21:32] and I decided that I'm gonna stay sober for the next 30 days. And so I ended up staying sober for nine for 90 days and it was on pure like spite. I was like gonna prove to people that I didn't have a problem that I, I could stop when I wanted to. And then they like and day like 99, I decided to drink again.
[00:21:54] Mm-hmm and. that was a, again, very, very rapid [00:22:00] dissent. I just, you know, smashed him to the earth and just drank way too much, went to treatment again at 23. And that was a mental health hospital. And that was the first time people really talked to me about my anxiety of my depression.
[00:22:14] Ah,
[00:22:15]Laura McKowen: okay. What was it like getting sober at 23?
[00:22:20] I mean, were you re, were you relieved in some sense? Were you like, uh, now my life is really over now. I really don't belong. Like, what was going on in you?
[00:22:33]Chris Marshall: The only reason I stopped at 23, um, was because I met a group of people who were alumni of the treatment program that I was in the hospital. and they would come back and they would talk to us.
[00:22:49] And there was this one guy, his name was Chris and he, I don't know why, but he asked me the, the strangest question. He said, do you, do you feel a [00:23:00] part of? And I said, that's an incomplete thought, do I feel a part of what he does? Do you feel a part of anything, man? Do you feel a part of life? Do you feel a part of your family?
[00:23:10] Do you feel a part of any group of anything. and it just was the, it was the right question to the right kid at the right time. Like my whole life, I had never felt like I belonged. And here was someone saying, you know, you know, looking almost like a, you know, a God or something like like this, this person coming to me and saying this thing to me in this, in with such confidence, like, do you, do you feel a part of it struck me.
[00:23:35] It struck me hard.
[00:23:40] I had to be honest, like I never felt a part of anything. And he said, you know what? If you stay sober, you get to belong to us. We're your new friends, we're your new, we're your new family. This is where you belong and you never have to drink again if you don't want to. [00:24:00] And, um, between that, and then realizing that.
[00:24:06] Was around these older people in treatment. And that, that was the first time I was exposed to other people who had the kind of alcohol problem that I had. Yeah. And to realize that you could be, you know, I was 23, but you could be 43, 50, 360 3, and still dealing with the same thing like that. That was a huge.
[00:24:26] Sign for me to stop. Cause I was like, oh, so you don't always die right away. I had already, yeah, you don't
[00:24:32]Laura McKowen: die. Like there's no guarantee I'm gonna die in like two years. Right?
[00:24:36]Chris Marshall: Like I, my thought was we do this for another two years. I'm out by 25, you know, you know, tears morning and I, you know, right off into the sunset and no, you get to live this way.
[00:24:49] And it was the first time anyone had ever show me that. And I was like, oh, We don't die. Right? You can do this for DEC. No, no. And I just like that right there. And I [00:25:00] told no one that, but between hearing that there was an opportunity to be connected to people, to live weightless mm-hmm and to realize that I could continue suffering this way for.
[00:25:14] what would feel like an eternity? I was like, no, no, no, no. I actually wanna stop drinking. I don't wanna live this way for the next 30 years. Um, wow. And that, that was it. That was the, the two things that happened to me that changed my life.
[00:25:29]Laura McKowen: I've never heard you say that before is that's powerful. Okay. So now, now we're sober, but you've still got your.
[00:25:43] your insides, right? Yeah. How does, what happens when you get sober? What is, what, what gets better? What gets worse? What, what happens?
[00:25:53]Chris Marshall: Well, the one thing that, that got better right away was this awareness that [00:26:00] I had always had this undercurrent of anxiety. Mm-hmm like, that had always been.
[00:26:08]Laura McKowen: and you didn't have a name for that.
[00:26:09] You didn't know that?
[00:26:12]Chris Marshall: No, not at all. Like I, I had no clue that it was anxiety that this, this, this wet blanket that had always been on me since again, I came out of the womb. I never knew that that was anxiety. I always just, it's kind of like living with, you know, you know, your whole life, you know, you, you live with, you know, your hair and then you suddenly lose your hair.
[00:26:38] Like it's it was like that. It was like, this is just always the way it's been. Like what would it be to not have that? I, and so the idea that I could live without it was, was liberating and terrifying. Mm-hmm and yeah, just, just being introduced to the idea that, Hey, what you're feeling. [00:27:00] This, this always activated feeling this, this sense of consistent and persistent need to leave and flee.
[00:27:08] Like that's anxiety talking that that is not an indictment on you as a person. It's saying like the trauma that you've endured has. Resulted in this kind of way of looking at the world and you see the, you see everything as a threat, but you also see yourself as a threat because you're afraid of the world and the anxiety colors your world and makes you believe that this is the only way to live.
[00:27:38] Yeah. Is to be afraid of everything.
[00:27:40]Laura McKowen: Did you get, like, did you do medication on top of therapy and treatment and stuff? Yeah. Oh
[00:27:47]Chris Marshall: yeah. Oh yeah. And. I had all these misconceptions about medication. I be, you know, I was so worried that if I took medication, it would make me a zombie or it would, you know, I was [00:28:00] very fortunate to like, have a good experience.
[00:28:02] I know a lot of people don't, um, but I was very fortunate to just stay with it until I found something that did work for me. Mm-hmm and yeah, I, I, I realized that I, I like, I remember the first day I didn't, I didn't wake up just terrified. it was, it was so quiet. Yeah. It's like when you walk outside of your house, when after a snow mm-hmm, like the way that the sound is just mm-hmm evaporated from the world.
[00:28:31] Like it was that kind of muted bliss.
[00:28:38]Laura McKowen: Yeah. I, I, so get it as someone with anxiety who also didn't know it's yeah. It's makes me wanna cry thinking about it because it's like living with, um, your heart beating like a rabbit all the time and it's, and, and just like how uncomfortable that, [00:29:00] that pressure feels.
[00:29:03] Mm-hmm you don't know that you could have a different heartbeat, a, a calmer, more peaceful inner life. You just don't even know that that. Available to anyone? Well, certainly not to you.
[00:29:18]Chris Marshall: It's. Yeah.
[00:29:24]Laura McKowen: Yeah. So now did you, did you kind of you're, is this when you started to work towards working in recovery?
[00:29:36]Chris Marshall: Yeah.
[00:29:37] So pretty quickly, um, it wasn't, you know, right away. I got sober at 23, I had been working at subway for like the last six years I had, I had no like career prospects, again, thinking I'm gonna be dead in two years. Right. Why build a career? Right? Like, what's the point. Like, I, I really had that, that was my exit plan.
[00:29:59] And so I, I [00:30:00] really didn't know what to do now that I was gonna live. And now that I wanted to live what to do. So I went back to school, took an aptitude test. They were like, Hmm, counselor. And I'm. okay. and, and I, I never thought about it before, but I loved stories I had that never changed my ability to, to just get in wrapped inside of a story and to, to really hear, um, someone else's life.
[00:30:26] Like that was what I loved about journalism. That's what drew me to the profession. Right. And so, um, I was like, this is just hearing people's stories in a different way and clarifying like plot points. That's all it is. And so I, I tried it out. I loved it. Uh, you know, I went back to school, became a licensed counselor, and then I'm doing that for, you know, six to eight years, eight years total.
[00:30:51] And, um, it was fantastic. It was to be a wounded healer and to be able to take, um, [00:31:00] the scars that you've accrued over time and they become helpful to someone else is just an incredible experie.
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[00:32:53]Laura McKowen: We've talked about times in your sobriety when you have felt. The same disconnection [00:33:00] when you have even had SI suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety. So can you talk about what it's like to go through that in recovery? What gets you there and, and what brings you back? What has brought you back?
[00:33:18]Chris Marshall: Yeah, I mean, I'm so glad we're talking about this too, because I feel like so much.
[00:33:26] podcasts and literature out there. It really focuses on what it was like. Mm-hmm, focus on like, oh, the, this disastrous pass and how, how hard it was. And now look how beautiful life is. And I have not had that experience. yeah. Well, nobody
[00:33:42]Laura McKowen: has that honest about recovery. You've been, you've been sober for what now?
[00:33:47] 15 years. Yeah. I mean, you're, you've lived a whole life. in recovery. Yeah. My whole
[00:33:52]Chris Marshall: adult
[00:33:52]Laura McKowen: life. Yeah. Right. So, uh, yeah. So, uh, okay, go on.
[00:33:59]Chris Marshall: so, [00:34:00] yeah, I mean, um, yeah, if I'm honest, like those thoughts of not being worthy of love and not being a part of creeping from time to time. And I think what gets me there to answer your question, what gets me there is, um, those old friends of like, you know, insecurity and overwhelm anxiety gets me there.
[00:34:27] Um, and it's never just done in a day. It's, it's a slow, you know, the slow boil that kind of just continues to just slowly heat up over time. And then I, I realized that, you know, I'm on, I'm in it. I'm on fire. I am . I am in the pot and it is boiling. It just, it. over time. I've been able to catch it faster.
[00:34:49] Yeah. But most times it's just this sudden awareness that I've let these feelings of isolation, of insecurity of not [00:35:00] being worthy, creep up and it's overwhelming. And now I'm like in a very bad situation. And, uh, the situation has, has turned dire. I'd say a handful of times in my recovery. , that's not something that I'm ashamed of.
[00:35:19] Um, because I know that part of the way that the, that those elements have a chance to impact my life is when I am silent about it. Yeah. Right. That's the only way shame grows in my recovery journey is when I'm silent about it. And I feel. the longer I stay sober. And this is something that we've talked about too, is like the longer you stay sober, the harder it is to admit that you've had or acknowledged that you've had, um, a setback or you've had a bad day or you've had a hard day.
[00:35:59] Yep. Um, [00:36:00] and I, and I, and I, I find myself often, I mean, I'm, I'm talking in the present. Like, it's hard for me to say that I'm having a bad day because I never wanna, um, give this impression that like I'm doing poorly. Yeah. And the truth is, is that you're gonna have a hard, you're gonna have hard days. And, and I, and I continue to have hard days.
[00:36:25] I will say this though, even though I have hard days, they're still not as bad as they were initially. And they sure as heck are not as bad as they were when I was in my cups. Like they're not, they're not that bad. But yeah, there's, there's been some dark days for sure.
[00:36:41]Laura McKowen: Well, we have dark seasons, right?
[00:36:43] It's just life. And then you add the, the sort of background cocktail of your programming and it can just how you described it as a slow boil is what I has been my experience as well. [00:37:00] It's you don't know you're in it. If you knew you would probably stop. But it's very sneaky, right? It's just a little pull back here from this relationship, a little pull back from that, a thought that you don't question in a certain situation.
[00:37:17] And then, you know, of course then there's life you add on all the, um, the cultural stuff, the going through a pandemic for two years, you know, like. I always hate the constant vigilance type of talk because it's so exhausting. But do you feel like you do have to have, it sounds so exhausting, but you, do you feel like you have to have a healthy amount of vigilance more or less all the time?
[00:37:43]Chris Marshall: Yeah, I don't like that talk either. Um, it, to me, it feels a lot like anxiety like this hypervigilance, like that's cool. That sounds familiar. You know, just, just, just be worried all the time that something's gonna happen. Not a big deal. Um, I, I don't like that. What I've learned [00:38:00] to do is to have the, uh, a small circle of folks in my life who, um, are my catchers in the Ry who know, um, where the, where the cliff is.
[00:38:15] And they, they catch me before I get there. They, they, Hey, like you didn't reply to my text is everything okay? Mm-hmm if everything's not okay. You let me know. Um, or like, Hey, you seem distant. You know, my wife's one, she just, she, she just catches it. She's, she's gotten better over time at just recognizing these things that I can't see in myself.
[00:38:37] Again, I don't realize the boil is happening. So I don't know if anyone is that self-aware. I think part of the, the challenge is that you can't see it. That's the point. And that that's the point, right? Like, like. No one is that self aware that they see themselves as the boil is hap as this is happening as, as this crescendo is happening.[00:39:00]
[00:39:00] Like you, it's hard to notice the difference. And so you need outside observers to tell you. Hey, this is what's happening. And so I, I don't have a, a bunch of friends who are keenly aware of like what those signs and symptoms are, but I do have a small contingent and I don't depend on one person to fulfill those needs either.
[00:39:19] Cause that's not fair.
[00:39:20]Laura McKowen: Right? Bingo. Well, it's also impossible, right? Right. Yeah. That's an, that's an important point. Uh, no, no one person, not your wife, not your, not one friend can do that. Mm-hmm um, not even if they wanted to.
[00:39:35]Chris Marshall: right. And it's, and it's honestly, it's so insidious that it would just like present itself as normal to that one person.
[00:39:43] Mm-hmm , that's why I have all these, like these people with different perspectives and different understandings of what, what I am so that, uh, it looks, you know, it hits people in a different way, in a professional sense. Like, Hey Chris, like, you know, talking about your stuff for, for sandbar, whatever you're you're building.
[00:39:58] And, um, [00:40:00] you're kind of slipping, dude. Are you okay? You know, Those kind of things I have, you know, uh, my friends that I talk to and they're just like, you seem anxious, are you okay? Like all of those people, but I never depend on one person. I, and I just, if there's anything I can say, that's helpful. It's like never make one person you're everything for anything.
[00:40:22]Laura McKowen: Amen. It's amen. So I wanna kind of shift to something that you, that you've said that I haven't forgotten is that you. will you won't go into rooms anymore where you are required to leave behind the heaviest thing about you. Can you just talk about that? Like talk about cuz I think as a, as a person in recovery with a, with the identity you do, you don't see a lot of people like you and you, what I've heard you say is you kind of still, even though you were finding community and sober and healing, there was still this part of you [00:41:00] that you couldn't bring in.
[00:41:02] mm-hmm
[00:41:03]Chris Marshall: to the conversation and it wasn't even that I couldn't bring in. I was asked to leave out mm-hmm right. Like I did find that community at 23, I did find, uh, a group of like 50 year old white guys that would take me out to eat bad Mexican food and drink coffee till 3:00 AM. Like, it was great. I had a great time.
[00:41:22] Um, I was by far the youngest and the only black person in the group mm-hmm um, and that was connection that, and that connection. everything that I was looking for and what I needed at the time. But there were, there were so many moments when I wanted to carry along with me, my blackness and everything that I had struggled with with being a black man in America.
[00:41:46] And I was repeatedly asked to leave that out the door at the door. It was an outside issue. I was told . I remember talking about how I applied for a job. and I wasn't sure if [00:42:00] I didn't get the job because I was not qualified or because I was black. Um, and some, um, Bo font hair, you know, lady pulled me, pulled me aside after being said, honey, we don't talk about those things here.
[00:42:16] You, you don't talk about race and color here. And I was like, , but that's my recovery. Like, this is like this. Yeah. I was talking about, you know, turning it over and like I related it back to the solution and like I did all, I spoke all the language. I like what, because I mentioned it, it may be because I'm black.
[00:42:37] I have to, I couldn't bring that in it. It was something that I was willing to accept until I wasn't. Right. And
[00:42:44]Laura McKowen: when did she, at that point?
[00:42:45]Chris Marshall: Like the death of George Floyd? Yeah, that was it. George Floyd died. I was like, nah. um, like, I just been doing this for a decade plus, and I'm just not willing to do it [00:43:00] anymore.
[00:43:00] And especially because when I would go into the rooms, which were virtual at that time cause of the pandemic. Um, and there were some outside meetings here in Texas, but every time that anyone of color would bring up anything related to. feeling scared or feeling unheard or feeling upset that they wanna drink yeah.
[00:43:21] Like they wanna drink in a meeting. They, they would verbalize that. And then they were told that that was an outside issue or they were muted. Mm. Literally silenced. And I just, I just didn't want to do that anymore. And so TLC has been the first place where I've been able to bring my whole. and the bipo meetings have been, you know, me and Tammy talk about it being our home group.
[00:43:50] Mm-hmm , we've been, we've been around for a while. We've been alcohol free for a while
[00:43:54]Laura McKowen: or? Yes. Yeah. Tammy's got like 25 years.
[00:43:57]Chris Marshall: Yeah. Yeah. She's got a good decade on me. [00:44:00] And we talk about how this feels like home for us. A virtual meeting feels like home for us. it's the only place where, where we don't have to pretend.
[00:44:15] I don't know if people are aware of this, but like yeah. Part of, part of being a person of color in this country is, is, you know, being bilingual and the ability to like navigate your life around whiteness. And then, you know, you take that, you take off that mask or you use, you, you feel like yourself behind closed doors and never in front of whiteness.
[00:44:38] And it's like, , this was the first time anyone ever said, you know what, we're gonna create this room for you. And we're gonna close the door. Mm-hmm and you can just be here in this room. Mm-hmm it was the first time I was ever gifted that in recovery and it, and it's. It's been such a remarkable thing.
[00:44:57]Laura McKowen: Well, you've, and you've participated in that, [00:45:00] that gift, like that gift happened because of you too, you know, we worked together on that. It wasn't this benevolent thing that you were, that you were given. Um, I just wanna make that clear, you know, like you, no, I appreciate that. And you give it to other people like you, you are the one leading those meetings too.
[00:45:17] You, you, you have been consistently and maybe you wanna talk about. Um, you've been working in the recovery space now for a while and have created spaces for people and at, and sometimes been the only black, oftentimes, as you said, been the only black person in room hosting, you know, all kinds of spaces all over the country and being willing to do that.
[00:45:46] Like that's also, um, it's a huge gift on many levels. I've seen you in action. you're pretty damn I'm good at it. I [00:46:00] wanna talk about, I wanna talk about the evolution of sand's bar and all that, but let's just, um, I wanna make sure, you know, we, we tie off this point. So what I wanted to to get at is like how important it is to, um, be.
[00:46:18] around connected to, in relationship with people who share your experience. Exactly. Mm-hmm, not like whether it's through recovery from alcohol or whatever you're going through. Like, you couldn't be a father without knowing other fathers. Can you explain maybe how, like, what that has done for you to be able to share that experience?
[00:46:45] in that space, like to get people who understand your experience exactly. How does that, how has that changed recovery for you if it has, or how is that? Yeah. How has that changed things?
[00:46:56]Chris Marshall: Yeah, I think the first thing that's changed for me [00:47:00] is that I don't have to do the whole bilingual thing. I don't have to like translate my emotions and experiences to be palatable.
[00:47:07] Right. So much. And this is something I didn't even realize until we, until I had the space. Was that so much of the conversations and the, the way that we communicate in bipo meetings, facial expressions, like literally no words, no words. And it's just like, the chat doesn't even like doesn't even exist for us because the looks are just, so we say so much with our faces.
[00:47:34] Mm-hmm um, and it's just this, this thing that we just, we hear each other. In this subsonic way, like we just are connected in that way. Um, there's a, there's a, a pace to the meeting that that's different. Um, but yeah, it's just to have this identification piece. And of course it's not the exact, not, not the exact experience because there's intersectionality at play.
[00:47:57] Right. Of course, like I may, I [00:48:00] am a black man in that meeting, but I am also one of a handful of men that, that go to our bipo. Most people identify as women mm-hmm , um, they're queer folks in our meeting. Like there's so many different, um, intersection points that I, that I think that it's not the exact experience that we all share, but it's the, it's the one it's the huge it's, it's, it's the elephant in the room to not have, um, you know, whiteness as like the center of your universe, like in that space.
[00:48:35] we are, we are our own things and we, you know, we share our own experiences and most importantly, we're not censoring ourselves. And again, you know, we're remaining respectful and that's one thing that I've always been like, we're going be respectful of everyone. Um, but, but there's just, that's never something you have to really do in that space.
[00:48:57] That's the thing.
[00:48:57]Laura McKowen: Yeah. It occurs to me that it's [00:49:00] like, you're. re your, your participation is not a response to, to, to an entity that's there. You don't have to shape shift and, and you can just flow you don't mm-hmm , it's like, it's like, it's like, if you're a fucking kid and your parents are in the room, you can't have a conversation with your friends.
[00:49:23] You know, like you, you can. You can sort of speak in code and like talk around issues and do all these other things, but you can't get at the thing you need to get at. Right?
[00:49:33]Chris Marshall: Bingo, bingo, bingo. Bingo. That's exactly it. And it's like, you can still have the conversation with your parents in the room. You can even communicate effectively with your parents in the room, but you can't talk about how your parents impact.
[00:49:50] when they're in the room, you can't talk about how you don't feel safe around your parents sometimes when they're in
[00:49:56]Laura McKowen: the room and you need to talk about that. Right. [00:50:00] Right. Obviously
[00:50:01]Chris Marshall: and sometimes you just need to not talk about your parents like that. Like, sometimes it's just great. Oh God, God. Right.
[00:50:06] Yeah. You know, like it's not, it's great to decenter whiteness and to, to be able to just be ourselves. I mean, mm-hmm, um, I don't know how people are gonna hear this it's okay. But I also. , I am responsible for my community and for myself. And I know that, um, if, if you're hearing this and you're a person of color, just know, like there is a world that you can be yourself in and who you are in, all of who you are is, is loved and accepted.
[00:50:41] And I, I just think that that is just a, a huge gift that the luckiest club has, has given. Um, I am part of the luckiest club, but I also just know that that is a very special.[00:51:00]
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