We are never more than one connection away from a veteran or first responder. They are the ULTRA helping professions. During the pandemic, many were the first line of protection and care. But how many of us have asked how we can be part of THEIR solution network? Meet Dr. Kate Pate, a neurophysiologist who is laser-focused on the health and healing needs of our veterans and first responders, which means she’s focused on matters that impact our entire society.
We are never more than one connection away from a veteran or first responder.
They are the ULTRA helping professions. During the pandemic, many were the first line of protection and care. Over 20 years of The Global War of Terror, many have experienced repeated deployments with an anodyne “thank you for your service” and a bad country music song as their only Thank You.
But how many of us have asked how we can be part of THEIR solution network?
Meet Dr. Kate Pate, a neurophysiologist who is looking at the ways our brains impact our bodies, and how we heal both in harmony. Kate is laser-focused on the health and healing needs of our veterans and first responders, which means she’s focused on matters that impact our entire society.
Her perspective is grounded in healing and is relevant to all of us because we’re connected to these folks or need similar healing. She gets the role recovery plays in the equation and she brings true illumination to things like, “what’s a trigger?” and “is this PTSD?”
Dr. Kate Pate is one of the most impressive and insightful people we’ve ever met and you are going to love her.
Dr Kate Pate’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/doc.pate/
Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/54-dr-kate-pate-vets-first-responders-being-triggered
Spotify playlist for this episode:
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TMST is hosted by Laura McKowen, the bestselling author of We Are The Luckiest and founder of The Luckiest Club. Follow the show and Laura on Instagram.
TMST Kate Pate final
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey there. It's Laura. Welcome to TMS T I am so glad you're here. So I'm gonna ask you some easy questions to get into today's episode first. Do you know any veterans? How about medical first responders like EMTs or people who work in emergency rooms know any firefighters or law enforcement? Where am I going with this?
[00:00:32] Well, the reality is there are millions of veterans and first responders in America and of course abroad. So even if we think we don't know someone directly who has served or is on the front lines, we can be sure we are probably no more than one connection away from them. And like all of us, the pandemic took its toll on these folks.
[00:00:58] Many of them were literally the [00:01:00] first line of protection and care and support for all of us. And then if you think about the 20 years of the global war on terror and the millions who have deployed or were deployed in that time, this is a huge population. So all of us, every single one of us has a duty to know what's happening in their worlds and be part of their solution network.
[00:01:24] But what does that mean? Well, this is where Dr. Kate pay comes in. She looks at the ways our brains impact our bodies. And so much more than that, too. The thing I want you to know about Kate is that she's super focused on the health and healing needs of our veterans and first responders. Which means that Kate is focused on matters that impact our entire society.
[00:01:53] And that's why she's perfect for TMS T her perspective is grounded in [00:02:00] healing. And although she works directly with this population, what we talk about is relevant to all of us, either because we're connected to these folks or need similar healing ourselves. She totally gets the role recovery plays in this equation.
[00:02:17] And she's just one of the most impressive and insightful people that we've met. I think you're going to love her as always. Please remember that listener support makes this show possible. So if you can do five or 10 or $20 a month, it makes it possible to bring conversations like this one with Dr. Kate pay to you, you can go to TMS D pod.com to support the show.
[00:02:46] All right here is Dr. Kate pay and joy.[00:03:00]
[00:03:01] Hey Kate. Welcome to TST. Hello. Hi. Thank you.
[00:03:05] Dr. Kate Pate: Yeah.
[00:03:06] Laura McKowen: So we have talked to all kinds of people on the show and you are the first fellow native Rocky mountain westerner. Woohoo, Colorado for me, Montana for you. Yeah.
[00:03:19] Dr. Kate Pate: Yep. I was in Colorado for 11 years though.
[00:03:23] Laura McKowen: I could go on and go on and on about introducing you, um, because your work is so.
[00:03:28] Broad and deep, but we, we love the haiku of your IG bio. So I'm gonna read that for everyone. PhD neurophysiologist military medical researcher, integration, coach educator advocate for military veteran and first responder issues, Montana
[00:03:52] Dr. Kate Pate: yep. In a Nu in a nutshell,
[00:03:55] Laura McKowen: in a nutshell. It's great. Uh, and you also do [00:04:00] target shooting, which is so badass to watch.
[00:04:04] Dr. Kate Pate: Yes. Yeah. I'm, I'm new to the community, but it was a ton of fun learning this past weekend. And hopefully it sets me up for success as a new hunter, which is something else that I've gotten into and passionate about, especially out here in the west. It's it's incredible.
[00:04:17] Laura McKowen: That's so great. It's, it's amazing to watch.
[00:04:19] If anyone wants to watch amazing videos of a woman doing target shooting, head over to Kate IG. So let's start with your family. Uh, and background and how they intersect with your research and what you do for work.
[00:04:35] Dr. Kate Pate: Sure. Yeah. I, I come from a military family and that doesn't mean that, you know, we necessarily moved around because of the military or anything like that.
[00:04:44] Although my dad served, he wasn't on active duty or anything when, when my brothers and I were young, he had done all of that prior, um, to, to having us kids. But, you know, it was a part of his life. It was a part of my uncles and grandfather's lives. Uh, two of my three [00:05:00] brothers served in the military and, um, the military and history, even military history was just a part of our family conversation, uh, and our culture.
[00:05:11] Yeah. And it was a common thread that was always present and colored a lot of how we looked at the world growing up. And, um, that intersected with my work in, um, 2015, when I had been doing medical research for, in a number of different areas over the years. But, um, I had been doing medical research and was teaching at a medical school in Colorado when, uh, small company approached me, uh, with, um, a need for help.
[00:05:41] They had just gotten a, uh, grant or a contract from the government, from the department of defense to do a, uh, study a military medical product to see if it was efficacious for a particular, uh, use on the battlefield. And, um, they really wanted some help with that. And so they approached me and I started consulting for [00:06:00] them and that turned into a, uh, full-time job.
[00:06:03] And then that led to me starting my own company. But the reason that that was interesting at the time was because my brother was, uh, a medic. One of my brothers was a medic in special operations in, in the army. Um, yeah, at the same time. And so it was a very cool way for me to. Combine my career and expertise and interests with, uh, that, that part of our family.
[00:06:23] And to be able to connect with my brother over these topics that were really imperative, um, and really in need of, uh, innovation. So it was a cool way for me to, um, share that bond with him a little bit and, and, um, really try and do some good in the world instead of, you know, being in a laboratory where you're pipeting all day long.
[00:06:43] And you're not sure if your work's ever gonna make an impact. This was a very different kind of feeling where you, you could see the people that you were actually impacting.
[00:06:51] Laura McKowen: So your work with veterans and first responders first, I would just love you to talk about what it is you do with them. Mm-hmm , but it isn't [00:07:00] just clinical.
[00:07:01] I say just very lightly. Um, you have a really broad network, uh, in many ways with those communities and you you're integrated with them at various different points. Can you talk mm-hmm about what, what it is you do for them and what that looks like.
[00:07:16] Dr. Kate Pate: Yeah. So I'm not a therapist, I'm not a clinical psychologist.
[00:07:20] I just wanna put that disclaimer out there. Mm-hmm um, I am a, a certified coach, but what I, what I do with these communities is really try to work with them on an individual basis to come up with a plan of action that will help them achieve the level of wellness and a quality of life, that one they deserve.
[00:07:44] But two that they're looking for. And the reason that's a thing is because, uh, many folks who come from these backgrounds have experienced things like chronic stress, traumatic brain injury, um, toxic exposures even. [00:08:00] And, um, they're dealing with a lot of really complex symptoms and folks over the years have come to me, knowing my background in medical research and my background in traumatic brain injury and, um, have had questions about.
[00:08:14] Themselves knowing, like being able to, to be aware that something's not right. They're not okay. And they're reaching a level of desperation yeah. Where they don't know where else to go and they have nowhere else to turn. And so they're like Kate, you know, I don't know what's going on, but I, I know I'm not okay.
[00:08:31] I don't know what to do. I've been to, you know, the traditional channels of healthcare, the VA or, or wherever. And, um, they don't, they don't believe me or they're telling me I have XYZ diag diagnosis and they're giving me what some personality
[00:08:47] Laura McKowen: disorder
[00:08:48] Dr. Kate Pate: or, well, there's a it's, you know, unfortunately, and I don't wanna perpetuate this cuz it is a little bit of a stereotype and it's improving.
[00:08:56] But what has happened in the past is that a lot of folks [00:09:00] were getting slapped with a label of PTSD and that wasn't, that wasn't always true. Uh, in many cases, it wasn't true. And for people to just be told that they have PTSD and that, Hey, this is your new normal, and now you have to be on these prescriptions, uh, upwards of, for some of my friends, 15 different prescriptions.
[00:09:21] Oh my God. And they're, you know, they can't sleep. They're a mess. The meds are pushing them all over the place. And then, you know, the psychotherapy that they're required to, to, um, go through, you know, the, the therapists often don't, can't relate or don't understand or not helpful and supportive. So people actually end up getting worse.
[00:09:42] And as you've probably heard, there's, uh, another epidemic going on. Um, that's, uh, one of suicide in this community. Yeah. Yeah. And part of that, when you look at the people who have been. Um, who have chosen that as their path, you know, they had been on a, done a bunch of different [00:10:00] prescriptions. Often alcohol is on board, firearms are used.
[00:10:04] So there's a lot of different factors playing into it, but across the board, people have not been okay. And I think many of them were afraid that if they didn't get help, they would follow that same path and they would choose to not be here anymore. And it's really hard to lose your friends when, you know, they.
[00:10:24] Made it through combat and they come home and they choose to take their own life here at home. And to see that over and over again, of course, people are gonna start to be afraid that they might succumb to the same yeah. Path and make the same choices. And, you know, I, I am not an expert in mental health and I'm not a psychologist.
[00:10:41] And so when people would come to me with these questions and these fears, I felt pretty ill-equipped to be able to help. And that set me on the path that I'm on now, which is really just trying to understand as much as I can of, of the research of what we actually know, published research, but also experientially for myself.
[00:10:59] [00:11:00] And for those that I've worked with, what do I know that has been helpful or, or harmful for myself and for others? Um, what are some alternative ways that we can help each other and, uh, promote wellness, promote healing mm-hmm and optimize mental, physical, spiritual health, because we, we have to do it differently.
[00:11:19] What has been done is. Um, not helping people and it's, it's gotta, we've gotta change it. Yeah.
[00:11:26] Laura McKowen: What is neurophysiology?
[00:11:29] Dr. Kate Pate: I get this question all
[00:11:31] Laura McKowen: the time. I'm I'm sure you do. And I'm sure lots of people are wondering after I heard that. Like who, so can you just tell us what it is?
[00:11:39] Dr. Kate Pate: Sure. Well, and a, a lot of people see it and they just, their brain just goes neuropsychology.
[00:11:44] So people automatically just assume, oh right. Psychology. She's a psychologist or whatever. And that's, that's not true. . Yeah. Um, so essentially neurophysiology is the study of how the brain influences [00:12:00] or controls physiology. It's like the functional approach to the brain body connection. And it is a research background and it's not a clinical background, meaning I'm a PhD, not an MD.
[00:12:13] So the reason I studied it is because I have always been fascinated by the brain and. I was telling a friend recently that we were just talking about being younger and the things that we were interested in. And I was one of those kids that had like at 10 years old books on neuroscience, like neuroscience for dumies like learning how to pronounce these really weird words, like hippocampus, things like that.
[00:12:36] And, uh, I just was always fascinated by it.
[00:12:39] Laura McKowen: So as a neurophysiologist you look at the, the brain body connection, and that can mean anything from like prosthetics to trauma recovery. Mm-hmm . So you've been doing a lot of work, as I understand with traumatic brain injury. And which is, like you said, huge and tragic among veterans.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Can you help us understand what traumatic brain injury is it's often referred to as TBI mm-hmm and why it's such an issue for this generation of war fighters?
[00:13:14] Dr. Kate Pate: Absolutely. Traditionally people have thought of traumatic brain injury as the image that we get from like the NFL, for example, where it is impact, uh, the brain impacts something.
[00:13:29] So you get what's called like blunt, blunt trauma. So that is also very common. People don't realize this, but traumatic brain injury is extremely common in the civilian world, car accidents, other types of accidents and falls, things like that. Absolutely contribute to traumatic brain injury and the high rates of it in the civilian population.
[00:13:48] So it's not just a sports thing or a military thing. It's a it's across the board. Something that people deal with, but we traditionally saw it in, you know, that became more famous with the, um, the [00:14:00] NFL and the discovery of chronic traumatic encephalopathy or CTE. As many people may have heard and. That's sort of the traditional picture, but what's been happening in the military and the global war on terror, which is essentially from September 11th, up until we pulled out, um, of Afghanistan.
[00:14:20] Uh, last year, that 20 year span of warfare, the hallmark injury was, uh, a blast trauma. And the, the reason for that being the heavy use of improvised, explosive devices or IEDs, that the, um, that was just, it was like the most common form of, uh, weapon in, in the global war on terror that people were, you know, it seemed like every, I mean, it just was so common.
[00:14:50] It seemed like you would hear about it almost every day in the news. And it wasn't that common, but that's what it felt like when you're reading these stories. Yeah. And. Not only that. So that's, that's very true [00:15:00] with regard to what was happening in the, you know, the theater and the combat, but people were also using, um, heavy, uh, um, artillery and machine gunfire and flash bangs and different things like that.
[00:15:15] During training where even in training alone, people were getting exposed to different types of blasts. And that is a different type of injury than what we saw with blunt trauma, where you, you know, see heads, helmets smashing against each other in the yeah, with blast injury. It's a pressure wave that essentially sends a shock through, you know, your brain is mostly water.
[00:15:37] So you can imagine as the shock wave moves through your body, it's, there's a lot of shearing forces that happen on the brain that cause injuries and. To make things even worse. Usually if there is a blast, there's often blunt trauma too. So you get some sort of, you know, maybe you personally get thrown into the air and then you hit your head when you fall or there's debris that gets thrown into [00:16:00] you that hits your head.
[00:16:01] So you get both, you get blast and blunt trauma. Um, wow. And although they're different forms of injury, the symptoms seem to be very similar. Like the long term symptoms seem to be very similar under a microscope. It looks different and CTE is not the same thing that happens after blast trauma. It's a different term, um, for blast trauma.
[00:16:24] It's, it's called, um, interface, Astro glial scarring or IASS. So it's like the version of CTE basically that you get from blast trauma. Got it. Um, just an injury pattern for those who are interested, but. The symptoms at, at the end of the day, the symptoms do seem to be very SI similar.
[00:16:42] Laura McKowen: And what are the symptoms?
[00:16:43] Some of the, the main
[00:16:45] Dr. Kate Pate: ones that, yeah. Um, it depends for each person, but following any kind of head injury when people are beyond the acute phase and they're more in the, the chronic phase and they're dealing with these long-term symptoms, they can have chronic [00:17:00] sleep disruptions. So maybe you used to sleep well and you no longer do.
[00:17:04] Um, that of course makes healing even harder as we all know, sleep is super important for healing. Yeah. Um, so sleep, sleep, disruption, um, cognition problems. So memory issues, mood issues, you could have complete mood swings. You could be irritable, you could be depressed, um, increase in addiction. It makes it much.
[00:17:24] Much harder to, uh, execute impulse control when you have an injured brain. Yeah. But also if you're not feeling good and you're scared, you may want to cope and you may want to numb out and you may wanna find a, um, some, some way to help yourself not feel so bad about your situation. Yeah. You can have, uh, extreme hormonal imbalances as a, as a result of traumatic brain injury, which again, sets it affects your mood.
[00:17:51] It affects your sleep, everything. So all of these things yeah. Are, are really complex and compounding on each other. And healthcare [00:18:00] now, modern medicine, we understand a lot, but we don't know everything. And it's really hard sometimes to heal and address all of these issues, but it's, there are doctors and physicians who are working on this and do have a good understanding of it, but they're rare and it's hard to find those folks.
[00:18:19] It does take a multipronged approach and. You know, it's, it's challenging. There are new centers that are popping up to address traumatic brain injury in the long, you know, kind of the chronic phases, the long term phases of it. But again, there's still rare and sometimes it's expensive, it's outside of your normal healthcare.
[00:18:38] So it's just a challenge, you know? Yeah. It's really hard.
[00:18:44] Laura McKowen: I don't know that I'm just sitting here thinking if I hear the, the phrase traumatic brain injury, I'm thinking this is chronic.
[00:18:55] Dr. Kate Pate: You
[00:18:56] Laura McKowen: you're screwed. That's what I think
[00:18:59] Dr. Kate Pate: mm-hmm, , [00:19:00] that's what a lot of people think
[00:19:01] Laura McKowen: is that true?
[00:19:05] Dr. Kate Pate: Thankfully, so you can
[00:19:06] Laura McKowen: heal a traumatic
[00:19:07] Dr. Kate Pate: brain injury. Yes. Ah, you absolutely can.
[00:19:10] There is hope and although it's difficult, it, it isn't something that it's, it absolutely can be done and the healing process can occur. But the problem is that most people don't want to do the things that it requires to heal, which means so hard. It's hard. It takes a lot of behavioral changes. Yeah. Um, and you know, especially for the military community, I, I love, I love this community so much and they are like family to me.
[00:19:38] But one of the things that I really struggle with, that's hard for me. And I get really angry about it is the chronic use of alcohol in this community. And it's, it's so accepted for everything. If there's a reason. To breathe. There's a reason to drink. That's one of the worst things you can do, trying to heal a brain.
[00:19:59] [00:20:00] And yet it's the way that a lot of people cope. And that's the one thing that's really hard for people to stop doing, because it's like all the people they hang out with is, you know, it's like totally all, when all the people you hang out with are, are doing that. It's part of the culture. It's really hard to make good choices.
[00:20:14] And I'm sure there's like
[00:20:15] Laura McKowen: a, we've earned this.
[00:20:17] Dr. Kate Pate: Yes. Mentality. Yeah. And, and that's a really big challenge. The other parts of it are, you know, if you're still on active duty or first responders, even, um, who have really strange hours and their circadian rhythms are all messed up because of the work that they do.
[00:20:33] And the times that they're, um, having to show up for work and it, it just throws off the circadian rhythm and makes sleep really, really challenging. And when I've talked to folks about, Hey, you know, if you really are serious about healing your brain, you have to come up with a better plan. Like you have to come up with a better schedule.
[00:20:49] And they're like, well, I don't wanna stop working. And it's like, well, you're only gonna get, as far as you're gonna go with this then, because to go the extra mile, you do have to really commit to making yourself a priority. [00:21:00] And it's so hard when you've done something for so long and it's always been this way.
[00:21:05] And now you're looking at having to completely upend your life and change things. But it's like, I always ask these questions of people. Like, how bad do you want it? Do you really wanna heal? Because it's gonna require. Some pretty major changes for a lot of people. And, um, I don't think that's a bad thing cuz radical change comes with radical growth a lot of times.
[00:21:27] And not only can you get the life you've always wanted, uh, by healing your brain, getting your quality of life back, but you're probably gonna have an even better life because you've all you made all these other good changes for yourself too, and started prioritizing your health. And I, these communities are really bad at that because they're the helpers and the givers and the ones you serve.
[00:21:50] And so they put themselves last all the time. Mm-hmm and prioritize everybody else. And this is something where it's like, I really have to twist people's arms to get them to [00:22:00] see, you know, you have to show. For yourself first and you will be so much better for everybody else because of that, but you've gotta prioritize yourself and it's, it's really hard for them.
[00:22:10] Yeah.
[00:22:11] Laura McKowen: I mean, that's like just such a core identity issue that mm-hmm, , it's really hard to turn that ship, you know, it, but it, but it, it is possible. Um, and I'm speaking from my world. What I know is, and it's not, there's some overlap, but yours is mm-hmm is I would say sometimes more complicated. So your work shows that traumatic brain injury sometimes shows commonalities with symptoms of PTSD.
[00:22:41] Mm-hmm how is that talk about that? I think PTSD is we think of, at least, I think of military, you know, any trauma that they have incurred as PTSD. That's what it is. Right. And I don't know that we really understand PTSD that well, [00:23:00] um, Talk through that.
[00:23:03] Dr. Kate Pate: Yeah. The, there is a lot of overlap and, and that's kind of what I was saying before about the, sometimes there's, there can be misdiagnose in these communities of, oh, well that's just PTSD.
[00:23:16] And sometimes it's not, sometimes it's traumatic brain injury, but the docs don't know the difference, or they don't know enough about TBI to know that that might be what's going on. Or maybe the person didn't mention it. But so there's a lot of overlap. But for, for folks who don't know a lot about PTSD, which is probably most people, because even those who have been diagnosed with it, their, their physicians and psychologists, psychiatrists haven't explained it to them.
[00:23:41] So they're told that, but then they're, they don't know why. Yeah. So for those who, who wanna know it, it does require a, a precipitating traumatic event. So something that happened to you personally, or that you witnessed that's a life or death situation where your body literally was in fight or [00:24:00] flight, I'm, I'm gonna die kind of mode.
[00:24:02] So that has to precipitate whatever it is that's going on. Um, sometimes for people that can be, it can be a single event or it can be chronic and unpredictable over time, um, where it's just kind of like every day you show up and there's some sort of like, you're just stuck in that fight or flight mode.
[00:24:21] So that happens. . And I want people to know that if you experience trauma, that it's normal for a while afterwards to feel off, to feel on edge, to feel nervous, to not sleep well. That doesn't mean you have PTSD. It means that you experience trauma and that's a hard thing. Mm. And your body will recover over time.
[00:24:43] Most likely. However, if it doesn't what the diagnosis is, and I'm not saying this timeline is, is right or accurate. But what the timeline is for diagnosis is 30 days. If after 30 days you have prolonged symptoms, then you will be [00:25:00] diagnosed. You could be diagnosed with PTSD. And what the symptoms are that are required are symptoms of, uh, intrusion.
[00:25:06] So you can think of tho those as like, uh, flashbacks or nightmares. Mm-hmm, where you're brought back to the traumatic event or something else. That's traumatic. Mm-hmm . So symptoms of intrusion, symptoms of avoidance, where you'll change your behavior. consciously or unconsciously to avoid any situation or place where you might be triggered.
[00:25:27] So where you're literally changing your behavior because of it changes in mood or cognition. So if you are depressed, if you can't remember things well, um, anything along those lines where you're, um, struggling with mood cognition, that's another required symptom. And then, um, hyper arousal. So this can show up as hyper vigilance where you're literally unable to, uh, rest, because you're just always on, um, enhanced startle response.
[00:25:55] All of those types of things fit in those categories. So you have to have all of those and they have to be [00:26:00] prolonged. Okay.
[00:26:00] Laura McKowen: Yeah. So it's at PTSD is actually a really complex yes. Specific diagnosis.
[00:26:08] Dr. Kate Pate: It is, it is very complex and it can resolve over time. You can actively. It can resolve over time. If you do nothing, it has, that has happened, but it can also resolve over time.
[00:26:21] If you actively work at addressing it, you, you kind of have to rewire your whole nervous system. Mm-hmm , it's like your nervous system is stuck with your foot on the gas and your sympathetic nervous system is just on overdrive, meaning that your in fight or flight mode all the time. Yeah. And it takes a lot of work, but you can rewire yourself.
[00:26:42] And it, it definitely is something that, you know, is hard to do alone. You need community, you need good people to do that.[00:27:00]
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[00:28:35] Laura McKowen: Can you talk about the clinical literal meaning of triggered? It's a word that comes up everywhere all the time, right? Yeah. And, um, I hear it constantly in recovery communities of I that triggered me and sometimes that's true. I think they are, they have actually [00:29:00] experienced a trigger, but mm-hmm , I think a lot of times it's discomfort that made me uncomfortable.
[00:29:07] Mm-hmm can you talk about the concept of a trigger? What that yeah,
[00:29:10] Dr. Kate Pate: actually means in the, in the context of PTSD, it would be something that, um, Sets a person off to be in that full flight or fight mode or freeze, um, that is bringing them back to a place that feels like life or death, where they're in it.
[00:29:32] And they, it feels so real to them at that time that they're unable to they're they may consciously be like, you know, I'm not in that place. I can see that I'm looking around, but their body is like, Hey, guess what? I don't give a shit because it feels like we are. And it feels like I'm about to die.
[00:29:50] There's that, that really intense, um, feeling in your body, even though your mind is like very clear that, you know, you're okay, your body is like, we're not [00:30:00] okay, but that is very different than the way that a lot of times people use it which is something like, you know, I, that triggered me and it just meant that they might have had a brief sympathetic increase because they got angry.
[00:30:14] And like, that's what they're saying. It made me angry. Like that's a normal response, an emotional response to something that maybe was, um, an insult to you that you get upset about. Like that's different than the clinical term being triggered, triggered, like in the context of PTSD. Thank you. It's much more severe.
[00:30:33] Yeah. In a clinical sense.
[00:30:35] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Yeah. It, and, and being uncomfortable and being emotionally aroused, whether you're anger, angry, scared, frustrated, you know? Um, or even the, the feeling like, oh, I, it comes up a lot in recovery communities. I'm triggered now I wanna drink. It's like, but we, but that's, you know, uh, if you have drank at [00:31:00] your feelings for any period of time, of course you're uncomfortable.
[00:31:05] Mm-hmm your brain goes boo drink, right? Doesn't mean you're triggered. So I wanna get us all into this place because next I wanna turn into these communities, the veterans, and first responders with the, like you, the endless wars we've been fighting and then the pandemic, and then this unbelievable amount of gun violence, there is trauma all around us.
[00:31:29] And the first responder in veteran communities. Mm-hmm are we paying sufficient attention to this?
[00:31:39] Dr. Kate Pate: I don't think so. I don't think we're even close. Um, yeah, we are missing so much because these are communities that, and I think it's, it's beyond these communities and I would be willing to say that it's probably a lot of, a lot of people in general now, but, [00:32:00] um, especially in these communities, people suffer in silence anyway, and they're not the type to ask for help.
[00:32:09] and they are the kind to pretend like they're fine when they're not until it, it, they just are forced to face something they're in an emergency and yes, they're in crisis. And, um, that's already going on, but because we've had even greater isolation, greater infighting among, you know, like politics aside, just communities, culturally, there's so many different things that people that are dividing people where they're not trusting each other.
[00:32:47] And there is no sense of community or it's like, you know, our community versus your community. And there's so much of that going on where people aren't okay. But then the people who are, um, like the first [00:33:00] responders and veterans, but especially first responders who are, you know, sometimes public enemy number one in certain places.
[00:33:07] Yeah. Um, They're they're really struggling and they're not likely to ask for help. I see this all the time in law enforcement, the fire service they're they're like, you know, I don't, yeah. It, I, it, it breaks my heart. It really breaks my heart. Um, and I don't know what the answer is. I, I think that's probably why I've got into doing this personally, cuz I'm like, I don't know how to help, but I know that I wanna try.
[00:33:36] And yeah, if it's just one person that I can work with and help, then that's, it's worth it to me. But we've gotta change the narrative that we have as, as a community, as a society. When we come to not just these groups of people, but it's like, you know, nobody has a mono monopoly on suffering. We're all hurting in some way and we've gotta stop tearing each other down and, and looking for ways to hate on one another [00:34:00] instead of, uh, instead of just coming together and helping each other and acknowledging, Hey, I'm a human I'm suffering.
[00:34:05] And I. Dealing with all these things. And that means you probably are too in some way. Yeah. Because we, we have more, more similar than we do different.
[00:34:14] Laura McKowen: And what, to the way we talk about trauma points to the origination in childhood, that's another sort of, I guess, psychological phenomenon, which is a helpful, I would say evolution of in some ways of culture that, you know, up to a certain point, there was no really no recognition of that, that this, you know, you might be traumatized by your childhood and then , um, and now there is, and maybe it's, you know, overcorrected a little bit, but, um, but then we also talk about it too, in relationships, you know, as traumatized by this relationship.
[00:34:51] So you are working with people who have experienced the trauma origination as young adults though in, in like mm-hmm, in their not to say they didn't have prior trauma, but into their [00:35:00] thirties. So mm-hmm, , I'm interested in, you know, how. This, the, how people integrate that change later in life. Like I thought of myself one way and now I have to think of myself in a new way.
[00:35:14] And how much is that part of the struggle you talked about that you touched on this in a couple questions ago when saying, you know, that things that always I'd always been able to work and I'd always been able to function in a certain way. And now I can't. Is there anything you could talk, anything you could add to that, that you've seen about having this happen to people later in life?
[00:35:37] Dr. Kate Pate: I think that in, in a lot of ways, the transition out of the military kind of precipitates this for some people. So as they're retiring, they. At a place where they kind of have to reinvent themselves anyway, because they're no longer that title. Um, and so that's sort of a natural ch a [00:36:00] natural change for some people where they're in a good place.
[00:36:03] It sets people up well, to be able to look at that, some people fight it and, and they identify with that, that part of who they are and the job that they did for their whole lives. And they don't ever wanna let it go. And you can see that, um, there are others who, uh, say, you know what? That was a cool thing that I did.
[00:36:19] I'm grateful for the experiences, but it's time to move on and do something new. And that sets them up for success and, and truly happiness as they move into the next chapters of their lives. Yeah. Outside of the military, in the first responder community, some people that I've worked with have decided to retire.
[00:36:38] Others have decided to stay in and, and still do the jobs that they were doing, but they really did have to make some pretty radical changes. And especially for those with families, as, as you know, one person change. One thing, it, it forces a change in the whole family because of it. And that can be really challenging and really hard, even if it's good.
[00:36:57] And that's where , [00:37:00] I see that
[00:37:00] Laura McKowen: happen all the time with sobriety, seriously, that person gets sober and it, you would think it just, you know, instantly heal the family and now it often throws it into a bit of chaos
[00:37:11] Dr. Kate Pate: first mm-hmm yeah, it can be really challenging. And that's where I think, you know, I keep kind of coming back to this idea of community and support, but I really do believe that as we go through these hard things, we can't do it in a vacuum and we can't do it alone.
[00:37:29] And, and sometimes even with your own family, you need people beyond that little bubble. You really do need. Support and people who are in it with you, who can understand it, or people who've already been through it so they can share lessons learned. But the people who are, who are able to hold space for you to allow you to move into these new places.
[00:37:48] I mean, when you're doing these kinds of things alone, it's really hard to say, I wanna make all these changes because it is the unknown. And you do feel all of a sudden, like you're in free fall and there's nobody there [00:38:00] to help hold you. Yeah. And that's a scary place to be. Yeah. So to have a community or some sort of support system, I think this is why there's a lot of veteran focused.
[00:38:11] Non-profits popping up all over the place because they're all recognizing, Hey, we've gotta do better for each other. And let's create little communities all over the place where we can create space and allow people to come out and have their experiences. And. Set set people up for success. And I think the veteran community's doing that really well, the first responder community is not at all.
[00:38:34] They are so far behind where the veteran community is with that kind of thing. It's so S interesting. It, it is because there are a lot of veterans who go into the first responder community and become law enforcement or fire service or EMS. And, um, you don't see the support for some reason. And, and that, you know, maybe they rely too much on normal channels of community funding and that [00:39:00] type of thing.
[00:39:00] There are nonprofits who are focused on first responders. They just are not anywhere near as, as popular or as big or as
[00:39:07] Laura McKowen: many. I also would have to imagine it has something to do with the fact that the fact that despite there are differences, you know, politically and so on, but it seems like one of the core issues that, and the few issues that people in the us can unite on is that is.
[00:39:26] Respect for military mm-hmm uh, definitely. Yeah. And that's not true for first responders. I think, you know, firefighters, I think it, it, it varies by, by role mm-hmm job, but that's not true anymore. Right. And that has to play into all of this in mm-hmm in a big way, you know, when you used to be respected and revered and idolized in some ways, and now it's not, that's not [00:40:00] always true.
[00:40:00] And, and, and not only is it not true, it's like, you're, you're hated. Mm-hmm um, that's gotta add this other psychological layer to oh,
[00:40:08] Dr. Kate Pate: to all of it. Yeah, it is. It's it's um, you know, I work with a lot of people from the law enforcement community as, as a coach, but also just as a friend and many of them struggle with.
[00:40:21] That fear of being hated and people don't understand like they're working in their own community. So when they're trying to keep their community members safe and they have to arrest somebody for something, they may run into that person. Again, it's not like the military oversees where you're never gonna see those people again.
[00:40:40] It's like, this is something where if you arrest somebody for some something and encounter them again, this happened to a friend of mine in Colorado who had to arrest somebody. And she ended up being his waitress at a restaurant a few weeks later. And it was really scary for him because he's like, he [00:41:00] wasn't sure if she remembered.
[00:41:01] And then, you know, he is like, not that he was fearful for his life, but it was just a really uncomfortable scenario for him to have to be faced with that. Every day, literally of his life, where he's encountering that, knowing that the people of his community hate him and he's there just to serve and keep people safe.
[00:41:18] And yeah, you know, he just, it, it adds a whole other level of stress that they already deal with. And that, that chronic stress, I mean, I know people talk about being resilient and talking about different modalities of, you know, tools that can be helpful for promoting resilience. But the truth is as human beings, we can only handle so much of that type of stress before we're overloaded.
[00:41:42] And we're seeing it everywhere where people are at the end of what they can tolerate. And that leads to a lot of these reactionary choices.
[00:41:54] Laura McKowen: Choices is stress. Uh, but just an [00:42:00] overarching, more or less meaningless word mm-hmm like that we used to describe, you know, all kinds of things or is it something that's clinical that you can study quantify?
[00:42:12] Do you, do you study, is it ever been part of your research stress? Like when we're talking about stress, what do we, what does that actually mean?
[00:42:19] Dr. Kate Pate: Yeah, it's um, it's kind of awesome. And also, maybe not so awesome at the same time that we have physiologically speaking one generic response system. For everything.
[00:42:32] So whether it is something that, um, you know, to use this cliche, um, analogy of a, you know, having a lion chase you and you're being fearful for your life, your body is, is, you know, quote unquote stressed at that time, meaning that your stress response system is activated. And the idea is to mobilize at that point.
[00:42:53] So you're either going to, like I mentioned before, you're either gonna fight that lion or you're going to, uh, flee, you're [00:43:00] gonna run, but you need to have your body like fully active, very alert, ready, and capable to handle whatever's coming at you. So that's a very classic example of how that occurs, but the same system is at play when we have a psychological stressor, meaning that, um, you know, say your.
[00:43:23] You're financially hurting. And your boss just said that, you know, you're gonna have to go down to half time for whatever reason mm-hmm and you're already stressed. The financial stress is a, is a major stressor for people, health issues, the psychological impact of knowing that you are a loved one, has some sort of health issue is a major stressor, um, marital issues, getting a divorce, getting married, even if it's positive, those are major, you know, stressors in your life, kids and kids.
[00:43:51] Yeah, the yes. All of those things. And they're, they're chronic meaning that they don't really ever go away. It's not like a lion chases. You, you [00:44:00] escape and then you're good. This is something where it's always kind of going on in the back of your mind and. it, it perspective is a huge player into this. So how you think about what's going on in your life can contribute to your stress response in like it's directly applicable to how your body responds.
[00:44:19] So if you're able to like, do some Jedi mind tricks and tell yourself like this, isn't a big deal and everything's okay. You won't react stress like stress, stress wise, your body. Won't be physiologically aroused to go, uh, fight a lion or flee from a lion. But it, you can't just say that in your head, you have to really believe it in your body.
[00:44:41] Yeah. And that some people can do that. Um, it takes time and practice, but that is one thing that we can do to help ourselves is really work on shifting our perspective. So we don't feel that activation every time. But to answer your question, um, it's all the same system. And today in today's world, we have a [00:45:00] lot of psychological stressors.
[00:45:01] I mean, just during the pandemic alone, there was so much going on for people. Yeah.
[00:45:06] Laura McKowen: And just prolonged mm-hmm , uh, the pressure just day after day is, and I think even per I certainly discounted that. It's like, you hit this wall, I hit walls at various points, which is going what's wrong. Like, I I've got nothing left mm-hmm or a super moody or yeah.
[00:45:27] Uh, and I didn't have some stressors that tons of other people had and still mm-hmm it's it's there. I, I wanna loop back to the Jedi mind tricks thing just, and linger there for a minute, because you said it kind of jokingly, but what do you mean by that? And, and what are some of those practical, but effective things that people could do
[00:45:49] Dr. Kate Pate: to work on.
[00:45:51] it is kind of a joke, but it is like, there are, there are tools for that. And one of the things that I always tell people, so a lot of people throw out [00:46:00] meditation and they're like, oh, I'll just meditate and do the whatever. Right. But like, for, for, for many of us who, um, you know, don't like to sit still, or maybe we're only told that meditation looks, you know, only looks like this, or there's only one kind, you know, it's not always the best solution for people.
[00:46:15] So I like to tell people to just tap into their, their breathing. There's some pretty, uh, simple breath practices that you can do immediately that tap into your parasympathetic nervous system and calm you down a bit and basically take your foot off the gas pedal. Yeah. Um, and the longer that you can do that, the better off you'll be.
[00:46:35] But the key is, is not just the, the key, isn't just. Getting comfortable and safe in your body, which is that is like, I would say the most important part, but the part of it that's required is the thinking part too. So as you are, as you're doing these breathing practices and you're really feeling into your body, you're feeling your body relax and calm down and [00:47:00] feel safe and, and peaceful.
[00:47:02] That is when you can rationally think like, okay, these things aren't going, you know, they're, they're not as big as of a deal as they need to be, or they're a big deal, but I can, I can stick with it. I can move through this. I can overcome it. I don't need to let it completely derail me and not leave me, um, able to do all the other things I need to do.
[00:47:22] You can kind of do some self talk. Yeah. But it needs to happen in. Parallel with your body being calm. Like you can't. I joke about this too. I say you can't talk yourself out of a sympathetic state, but you can breathe yourself there. And, oh, I love that.
[00:47:39] Laura McKowen: I that's man. I, I hear you. It, I have learned and been taught and practice.
[00:47:46] And so I know it's true that our breath is like the most powerful tool. We have to regulate our nervous system, but I love that you added the thought piece in there because the, the simple thought that I [00:48:00] use is there's nothing to solve right now. Mm-hmm
[00:48:06] Dr. Kate Pate: I love
[00:48:06] Laura McKowen: that when you're in just that breathing space, there could be a lot going on mm-hmm but right this second, if you can just allow yourself to truly feel for one breath and two, and then maybe for a minute that there is actually no problem right now.
[00:48:26] And there's nothing to solve right now. Yeah.
[00:48:32] Dr. Kate Pate: It's so
[00:48:32] Laura McKowen: simple. It's hard to grasp, but man, that is a life changer for me.
[00:48:36] Dr. Kate Pate: Mm-hmm absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's spot on when you're in that moment, the most important, and the only thing you need to be focused on is breathing mm-hmm
[00:48:47] Laura McKowen: yeah, that's it, I'm really glad that came up.
[00:48:51] So I wanted to sort of move towards the, the treatment and healing part and we kind of, we did naturally, what is the biggest, the biggest [00:49:00] challenges you experienced with getting people to be receptive to therapy? You talked about some of this, uh, quite a bit of it actually. Um, the fact that they don't want to do the work to give up, you know, their life as it is.
[00:49:17] What are some of the other things that the challenges that you, that you hit, you talked about alcohol too. Are there anything, anything else that stands out as a particular theme or a challenge to get people to try to do these interventions?
[00:49:32] Dr. Kate Pate: I think there's a, uh, there's for many people, there still seems to be a stigma, um, around asking for help.
[00:49:43] So even though they're kind of, you know, there's taking that step and saying, I need help. There's still like a resistance to it because it is stigmatized and people don't talk about it. And I can't tell you how many conversations I've had, where somebody's saying stuff to me on the phone about like [00:50:00] how fucked up they think they are and all of the crazy things that they're doing.
[00:50:05] And they're like almost apologetic to me by saying all these things. And like I'm such a lost cause. And I'm a mess and I'm like, Hey, guess. Welcome to the club because you know how many times I've had this conversation and you know, how many times I could hold up a mirror in my own life and show you equally grotesque things about, you know, myself that all came from a place of pain and wanting to be okay.
[00:50:34] And that's O that's okay. Like you're a human being. And there's so much shame around around those things that we do. And, and because people don't talk about it enough, there's that stigma. And there's that fear that I'm the worst. I'm the most awful I've done the things that are the most horrific that's, that is a real barrier for people.
[00:50:57] And especially in these communities that are so, [00:51:00] you know, known for being tough and macho, whether you're a man or a woman, it doesn't matter. It's like tough and macho. Like the women I know in these communities are complete badasses and I see them. All doing the same thing, uh, where I'm fine. I don't have, you know, I don't, I don't have any issues.
[00:51:18] I, you know, or if I have issues, I have ways to cope or, you know, all of the things that, that, that we say to kind of rationalize us continuing along and not having the spotlight shown on us, because that, that's just part of it. And I think like what you're doing on this podcast and what other people are doing in the community, by not only giving a voice to this realness, but a megaphone and saying, Hey, this is a big conversation that needs to be had loudly.
[00:51:48] And we need to talk about what it is to be a human, you know, these are the communities I work with, but, but it's a hu these are all human issues. Yeah. And that, that to me is like the [00:52:00] really, I think the biggest obstacle for all of them, all the folks that I work with is, is just the shame and the stigma for asking for help and the belief that.
[00:52:09] Because when they have asked for help in the past, maybe that they haven't gotten it or maybe it's been dismissed. And so there's that kind of overcoming the, you know, see, this is why I don't ask for help kind of thing. Yep. Um, so yeah, it's, it is a really, it's a challenge. It's yeah. It's hard to work
[00:52:27] Laura McKowen: with.
[00:52:27] That's super helpful though, just naming that. Um, and that it is it's completely human. Everything you're saying is what I see in a
[00:52:34] Dr. Kate Pate: different space. Do you have
[00:52:38] Laura McKowen: your own, your own experience? You just mentioned your own behaviors, your own experiences, struggling with compulsive and controlling behavior around food and body and clinicians.
[00:52:51] Neo. Typically, I think that's lessening now, but they're trained to leave their personal experience at the door. And just out of the, out of a setting, I know you're not a [00:53:00] therapist, but you're, you're a coach. You're a helper. Mm-hmm so, but you have found ways to integrate. Your own experience and to build trust with these communities by sharing some of your own struggles, I assume mm-hmm based on what you said mm-hmm and, um, would you mind sharing some of that so we can, you know, more
[00:53:18] Dr. Kate Pate: about you?
[00:53:19] Absolutely. Yeah. For, for those who don't know. I mean, for the longest time, I, I think probably started when I was super young, like really, really young, but didn't really show up for me, uh, as an eating disorder until. Maybe 18. And for me again, you know, all of the hours that I have spent in therapy and working with people on an individual basis or group basis for myself being the patient, you know, I think I've really come to understand what gives rise to eating disorders and why people choose those.
[00:53:55] And the types of people that go, you know, move in that direction as a, to [00:54:00] use that as a tool. And it's, there's a lot of pain. There is a lot of pain there and you know, same for folks who choose other tools, maybe alcohol, or maybe something else. We all choose a tool to deal with really challenging experiences that we don't know how to hold and underneath all of these things, whether it's addiction or, um, other types of behaviors, there's, there's significant trauma, there's significant pain.
[00:54:29] And I, I don't think that. I really understood that till I started doing my own work, which was in parallel with kind of working with these communities where, you know, I saw in myself like this, you know, I, I guess to be completely like parallel with the other communities, I didn't ask for help because I was like, I'm fine.
[00:54:49] This isn't an issue. I've got it under control or I'll deal with it and overcome it when I'm ready. But right now I don't care. And you know, all of the things, and I've seen that in other people that I've worked [00:55:00] with, and I know what it's like to be alone. I know what it's like to wanna change and to want help and to feel completely hopeless.
[00:55:07] And, um, my eating disorder was also, uh, paralleled with alcohol abuse. Mm-hmm um, so anytime I drank more, my eating disorder would show up in full force and they went hand in hand and then I would wanna drink more because I was so ashamed about my behaviors and super common. Yeah. And it was, to me it was ugly and horrific.
[00:55:30] And you know, just all of the things that are like the worst, right? Like I, I said just a second ago, all of that. And then as I started to recognize that I wanted to heal, I started to experiment and use myself as kind of a Guinea pig with like my own, like what tools are gonna work for this, what tools are gonna address the behaviors?
[00:55:55] What tools are gonna address the deep seated traumas? How am I gonna start learning how to feel my [00:56:00] feelings, cuz God forbid I do that. You know, like how do we how do we, um, how do I set myself up for. not just like, it was really just learning how to be a human being again and, and heal. So all of that was kind of going on.
[00:56:18] It, it sort of preceded the work I do now, and then was in parallel with the work that I do now. And my recovery process has been the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. And it's
[00:56:32] Laura McKowen: even with all the knowledge, even with all the, that I want people to hear that because yes, a lot of people that listen to this I know, and in, and are in my, you know, like the luckiest club and, and, and in recovery communities are in helping professions and they I've done this too.
[00:56:52] Like I know I talk about this stuff all day long. I teach this stuff. I have read every book. I have all the information. [00:57:00] Mm-hmm , it's not enough. We know what to do.
[00:57:01] Dr. Kate Pate: It's not enough. yeah, it's the same. I mean, that's, that's exactly it. And you could have all the information, you could know exactly what to do to take care of yourself or to heal or to overcome something or to, uh, to go move through transformational recovery.
[00:57:17] You could know all of it, but until you really start living it and practicing it. And, and I always say embody it because the body is required. You can't just hold these ideas in your head. It's just knowledge, but it doesn't become wisdom until you experience it and own it as something you really felt in your body.
[00:57:39] And for so long, it was just these, these were just concepts for me. Yeah. And it wasn't until I got serious about recovery and naming my truth and explaining what was going on for me and allowing people to see me and experiencing that, the scary shakiness of. [00:58:00] Of, you know, being seen for the first time in all of my ugly parts that I thought people would just be like, you know, oh, you don't deserve love all of the things that I was so fearful of that we all are.
[00:58:11] And then to have people be able to sit there and say the things that I would say to them that they were saying to me, where it was like, Hey, join the club, you know, welcome. yeah, we're happy you're here. yeah. Yeah. And I think that was the most powerful thing for me. And that's what has allowed me to show up for the people that I work with, where it's like, Hey, I, I do understand.
[00:58:33] And I'm telling you that I am not above you or below you, as I'm saying this I'm right next to you. And you know, we can walk through the shit together and I'm not gonna fix it for you, but I can hold your hand and I can shine a flashlight into the corners. And, and we can talk about whether we wanna walk over there and there things together.
[00:58:53] Yeah.
[00:58:53] Laura McKowen: Yeah. That's great. That's awesome. you said embodied, and I think [00:59:00] there's this, uh, there's this thing we say about, you gotta feel it in your body, it has to be embodied. Like, what does that
[00:59:08] Dr. Kate Pate: actually mean? Yeah. So this is something else that, again, through my own journey, I really came to understand cuz I threw it around as a term again, concept in my head of like share embodiment.
[00:59:21] For me, embodiment is something where I'm able to have whatever thoughts or memories whatever's coming up for me. But rather than living up here in my head and being in that world of just thoughts and, and storylines, I, it, it forces something to come up in my body where I have a feeling and it's something that like I'm very aware of at the time.
[00:59:43] So it could be, it could just be. Contentedness. It could be anger. It could be sadness, it could be guilt. It could be any of the things that, you know, Brene brown has a great book on at. It's called the Atlas of the heart, talking about all the different [01:00:00] emotions that are out there that people are maybe not aware of.
[01:00:02] And if you struggle with naming things, that's a great book to digest because it can help you that the sooner we're able to identify and name the things that are coming up for us and feel it in our body, the sooner we're able to really be embodied in those moments. And so for me, it's, it's about the feelings that come up when you're thinking about something or experiencing something it's, it's identifying them, being able to sit with them.
[01:00:30] And then that all of a sudden is like, you're, you're here, you're in your body because there's so much all the time that's coming up. That's information for us, but we really get good at. Not being aware of it. And to me, that that isn't embodiment and it doesn't mean just feeling your body, which is what I thought for so long.
[01:00:48] It's like, well, I can feel my fingers and my toes. And you know, I'm like meditation will do this where you're like, I feel the cushion under my, under my butt. Like I feel the back of the chair, that's part of it. But to me, it's the [01:01:00] feeling, the feelings, the emotions, the literal
[01:01:03] Laura McKowen: energy shifts and the heat and the cold and the discomfort and the, the sobs or the, the, you know, expansion of the heart enjoy, which can feel terrifying.
[01:01:18] And so the actual sort of weathering of those emotional, I wanna say energetic, cuz emotional still I can like put up in my head. It's like that, those energetic, uh, yeah, with the energetic weather that, that passes through us and, and. we can get, we get really good at repressing it for sure. And just sort of stuffing it, but also using our minds to get us out of it, this continual shifting of story to like pull ourselves out, which is, that's what I do.
[01:01:51] Mm-hmm and it's, it's sneaky. You don't know that you're doing it cause it works pretty
[01:01:55] Dr. Kate Pate: well. It does. And especially when you've done it for so long mm-hmm . [01:02:00] Yeah, but I, I love that the energetic weather of your body. That's so good. pretty easy.
[01:02:06] Laura McKowen: Yeah. Any last thoughts that you have about sort of our larger, I guess, societal obligation to provide care and if not care, then at least respect and compassion towards these groups of people that you focus on.
[01:02:30] Dr. Kate Pate: First of all, I appreciate that question. Um, I would encourage. People to focus on under like having self-compassion first and understanding themselves and really seeing all of the ways that they show up in the world, the good and the bad, the pleasant and unpleasant, all of those things. And I would ask them to get really familiar with that and then be able to take that and look at [01:03:00] these people because they're not, it's so easy to objectify somebody and just make them a thing that is all bad or whatever, you know, you wanna call it however they wanna, uh, term that.
[01:03:14] But you can't ignore the humanity of other people when you're in touch with it in yourself. And. I just wish that we could all focus on that because the world would be a better place if we were all able to do that.
[01:03:29] Laura McKowen: Amen. Yeah. Amen. Uh, well, I'm so glad you're, I'm truly grateful that you are out there doing the work that you're doing.
[01:03:38] Uh, thank you. And that someone like you exists and is sort of, you're blazing a different trail, like truly for, for a lot of people. So thank you. Thank you. It
[01:03:50] Dr. Kate Pate: feels like an uphill battle, but it's like, you know, that's, that's why we're all here. We're all just doing a little piece of the work in our own little corner and it takes all of us [01:04:00] doing it together.
[01:04:00] So I'm grateful that I found my way here and I feel lucky to be able to do what I'm passionate about.
[01:04:07] Laura McKowen: If someone is listening and they themselves, or they have a family member or a friend or someone that needs that, that needs what you're doing, where could they find you?
[01:04:17] Dr. Kate Pate: Probably the best place would either be to send me an email@katedocpay.com or, um, to find me on IG it's doc pay, uh, D O C P a T E.
[01:04:31] Those are really the main platforms or ways that I interact with folks these days and trying to keep a low profile elsewhere. So I don't have to deal with too much, but yeah, that would be, and please, if there's questions or people need help or they're just curious or whatever, I'm, I'm super approachable, really friendly, and I'm always happy to help.
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