Larissa May has “...a vision for a future where kids learn how to develop healthy relationships with technology.” In this episode of Tell Me Something True, Laura and Larissa dive into a nuanced view on the ways the technology we can't escape can be something we can live with.
On TMST we’ve been open about our conflicted relationship with technology and social media. And you’ve heard many of our guests recount their mixed feelings, as well.
Today’s guest takes all of that and turns it up to 11.
In 2018, Larissa May (who goes by Larz) spoke out about her struggle with depression on social media. The post and hashtag that emerged around it was called #HalfTheStory - and it sparked a global conversation about the relationship between technology and emotional wellbeing.
Having just turned 28, Larz holds a unique place in our culture. She’s a part of society that has had their adulthood defined by social media AND, she’s also just about as old as you can be and still be able to talk to Gen Z as something like a peer. She’s doing that through workshops, and creating screenless experiences, and nature immersions.
Today, Larissa is asking us to consider what we get out of being the guinea pigs in Mark Zuckerberg’s experiments in the metaverse.
Or getting us to become aware of how prevalent the drug trade is on the social platforms - and how they’re not doing a whole lot to crack down.
She’s is exactly the kind of person who we love to welcome to Tell Me Something True and we’re excited for you to meet her today.
Larissa’s site: https://www.livinlikelarz.com/
Larissa’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/livinlikelarz/
#HalfThe Story: https://www.instagram.com/halfthestory/
If you care about these kinds of conversations, we hope you’ll become a TMST Plus member.
Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/63-larissa-may-and-our-journey-to-digital-wellness
Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1T8Wqk3beLx3f8BTaIAtXx
Here’s the transcript: https://tell-me-something-true.simplecast.com/episodes/larissa-may-and-our-journey-to-digital-wellness/transcript
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TMST Larissa May and Our Journey to Digital Wellness (final)
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. Welcome to TM S T so it's no secret. I have a conflicted relationship with technology and social media, especially, and you've heard many of our guests here recount their mixed feelings as well. Today's guest takes all of that and turns it up to 11. In 2018, Larissa may who goes by Lars, spoke out about her struggle with depression on social media, the post, and the hashtag that emerged around it was called half the story.
[00:00:35] And it sparked this global conversation about the relationship between technology and emotional wellbeing. Today. Lars is living out on the edge of her commitment and vision for. As she says a future where kids learn how to develop healthy relationships with technology. And she's different because she's actually providing solutions.
[00:00:59] This extends [00:01:00] beyond things we would expect, like creating space for us to have truly penetrating conversations about the role of technology and our mental health. She's asking us to consider what we get out of being Guinea pigs in mark Zuckerberg's experiments in the metaverse, but she's also not condemning social media or technology as a whole, like I said, solutions.
[00:01:22] She's also getting us to become aware of how prevalent the drug trade is on the social platforms and how they're not doing a whole lot to crack down. Having just turned 28, Lars holds a unique place in our culture. She's a part of society that had their adulthood defined by social media. And she's also just about as old as you can be and still be able to talk about gen Z as something like a peer.
[00:01:48] She's doing that through workshop. And creating screenless experiences and nature immersions. She's exactly the kind of person we love to welcome to this show. And I'm so excited for you to [00:02:00] meet her. Here you go.
[00:02:13] So, Hey, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. This is a topic that's so close to my heart all the time. Having a young kid who grew up on, she doesn't know life without. Technology phones, screens, apps, all of that. She doesn't, she will never know life without
[00:02:35] Larissa May: that. She's the I
[00:02:36] Laura McKowen: gen. Yeah. So you have a mission that says I have a vision for a future where kids learn how to develop healthy relationships with technology.
[00:02:46] So, yes. What is that vision? So
[00:02:49] Larissa May: when you, about seven years ago, I had this sort of actual vision that the next biggest. Part of the wellness movement would be digital wellbeing. We talked about, we [00:03:00] talk about our physical health. We talk about our mental health, but we don't talk about how our relationship to technology actually informs all of those things.
[00:03:08] And so for me, I believe that technology can be a weapon or it can be a tool and with the right intention and the right habits and the right emotional. You can develop your digital wellbeing and it's something just like every other wellbeing. It's, it's a journey. It's not a destination, but it's something that kids have no playbook for.
[00:03:27] They have no education around yet. You know, they wake up, some kids are on technology before they even can say their parents' names. And so mm-hmm, , you know, for me, I believe knowledge is power. And so at half the story we wanna empower from the bottom up through education, empowerment and advocacy, but also from the top down by actually shifting policy, uh, to hold these tech companies accountable, as well as creators that contribute to the problems that we're seeing.
[00:03:56] What
[00:03:56] Laura McKowen: sparked you, what was your personal moment? [00:04:00] I'm sure there were many, but to, to do this, cuz this is a massive
[00:04:04] Larissa May: undertaking. Oh yeah. It's a huge one. And you know, I think with that, I've been at this for seven years. Um, I started it before the world was even talking about mental health. It was like, We don't even know how to accept that.
[00:04:17] There's a problem with technology. Like we still need to figure out the mental health problem. And so it's been an uphill battle, I would say up until the last year where now it's almost like holding onto a skateboard while like being pulled by a train down a mountain. So it's been a really interesting shift, um, you know, kind of keeping up with that growth.
[00:04:36] I always say that, you know, the, the brightest ideas sometimes come from the darkest moments and half the story is no exception to that. I've started this, of course, as a result of my own problems when I was in college, I. Really fell in love with social media. And I actually saw a lot of benefit from it and built a personal brand and was doing social media consulting.
[00:04:56] It was like my job while I was in college.
[00:04:59] Laura McKowen: Can you give [00:05:00] people a, a time, when were you in college?
[00:05:02] Larissa May: So that was six years ago, six years ago. So I'm, I just turned 28. And when I was in college, I basically became obsessed with social media because I wanted to be a fashion influencer. And I saw all of these people living glamorous lives and looking skinny and pretty.
[00:05:20] And I literally made it my goal to be that. And so I, I started. Like running 14 miles a day after going out at night and, you know, really restricting my diet and then just becoming like obsessed with my digital persona. It was the only thing I thought about. Like, I was so excited to go to the gym because I could sit on the treadmill or the elliptical and get followers and engage with people and build my following.
[00:05:43] Like it was a true obsession and it got so bad that, you know, I started spending more and more time on the platform. To the point where I was spending 12 to 14 hours a day and lost sight of everything in my life. Like my roommate, who was my freshman year, best friend [00:06:00] moved out because I was depressed and like addicted to my phone.
[00:06:03] Uh, I stopped going out. I didn't even really know who I was. Like, I was a girl who would go to school with a fever up until I was in college. Right. Like I was just like, never wanted to miss anything. You know, then I was a girl who was laying in bed for two weeks and didn't go to class. And social media was this coping mechanism.
[00:06:22] It was a shield between me and the world and a way to protect myself and my identity, but also almost like a sword to my own emotions and heart, because it was taking so much from me. And I was just, you know, the worst, the worst that I. I felt that social media amplified those feelings. It was almost like a magnifying class.
[00:06:44] And then I finally got, was experiencing suicidal ideation and my resident advisor pulled me outta my dorm room. She was in med school. Premed. And she was like, look, this Lars is Alars. I don't know. And it's Alars that I don't even think, you [00:07:00] know, and I'm, I wanna, you know, basically help save your life. So I went to the psych center and the most amazing thing about it was they asked me about drop.
[00:07:09] Sex alcohol, the people I spent my time with, but they didn't ask me about this drug, the drug that now the average American teen is spending eight hours a day on without any knowledge, any introduction to, or without any privacy or protection. So I, I was like, screw this social media is only half the story, literally printed stickers that said half the story shared the other half of my story and started a grassroots movement, which really started to take fire.
[00:07:37] And was the. That actually addressed social media and mental health before the world did.
[00:07:44] Laura McKowen: So did you know when was it in that meeting at the psych center where you, you were saying like you're missing like this, none of these things that you're listing are the
[00:07:55] Larissa May: things? Well, you know, I, I didn't say it to them.
[00:07:59] I [00:08:00] just, it took me a bit to figure it out because I was like, okay, now I'm on antidepressants and I'm going back to my life. My life was still my phone. And I was still spending a lot of time alone and I was observing and listening, which is what you do a lot when you're depressed, cuz you just don't know how to connect with people.
[00:08:18] And I just started overhearing how many conversations were about social media. I started seeing how people's body positioning or eye contact shifted as soon as phones or devices entered the. And I would just realize like, holy cow, this thing is such a big part of this mental health struggle that I've been going through.
[00:08:39] Of course, I have been dealing with chronic depression since I was 16. It was untreated until college, but I always say it was my struggle with mental illness paired with my terrible relationship with technology. That really put me into a spiral in the same way that if you're dealing with depression and you start drinking a lot, you're gonna be put in a spiral [00:09:00] and social media and technology was my drug.
[00:09:03] Laura McKowen: That's incredible that that, that happened in college. So I give you so much credit. It's hard to go first. What are we missing when we think about gen Z and younger millennials and their view on technology?
[00:09:16] Larissa May: I think there's a couple of misconceptions. I think one is, and. Our mission is to empower. We're not here to cancel.
[00:09:24] We're not here to cancel technology. Abstinence doesn't work in sex ed. When you tell kids not to have sex, it's like, if you're gonna do it, do it safely. If you're gonna do it, do it. So it feels good. The same goes with technology and the same goes with food. Um, I think that a lot of gen Z. Actually do have positive relationships to technology.
[00:09:45] And it's opened a lot of doors, especially for people in marginalized communities, people that are queer and as a society and culture, we tend to disregard the positive aspects of this. And this happens a lot in school systems and [00:10:00] in the work that we do, part of our jobs is not just to. People to the negative sides and why the inner workings hook them and what it's doing to their brain.
[00:10:10] But it's also to expose the bright spots. And when you're living in a world where everyone's telling you you're addicted, and this thing is bad, you can really start to believe all of those things and be disempowered. And so for us, we wanna be able to actually help change the narrative from an ecosystem perspective, even with parents and teachers and culture as a whole, that technology can be a good thing.
[00:10:33] In the same way that so can food. So can all these other things mm-hmm if we have the right approach to it, and it's unique to everyone, it's not something that you're born with. It's something that's influenced by your socioeconomic status, by your cultural background, by your sexual identity, by your parents' relationship with technology.
[00:10:52] And it's very personal. So I think like that's biggest misconception is that. Like all gen Zs are [00:11:00] struggling. Not all of them are, but a lot of them are. I think the second misconception about gen Zs is that, you know, they, they don't want to experience the real world. gen Zs are just like we spoke about earlier.
[00:11:15] They feel stuck when we meet with kids and we do intake surveys. The truth is, is these kids don't even know how to adjust their relationship with technology because they were never taught. They were never taught how. You know, actually take control over their time, over their mental health, over their body image and the way that they see themselves.
[00:11:33] And so to me, it really starts with education empowerment as the root of greater change and a movement that we hope to propel and will continue doing, um, and continue fighting for.
[00:11:47] Laura McKowen: Yeah. It's funny because it is that you bring up, you know, the, the abstinence thing, you know, I'm sure what a lot of kids are hearing is like, you're stupid.
[00:11:57] And bad because you just keep
[00:11:58] Larissa May: using this thing. That's [00:12:00] exactly it. And you know, the, the funny part is, is like from, I, I talk a lot about the ecosystem and the Delta change, right. And that happens in your individual environment. That also happens in more of a global scale. And when we have these conversations and we, we work with our school districts and parents come.
[00:12:19] Our sessions and experiences. The funniest part is that we usually start by asking them about their relationships with technology and their and how they are. And people forget that their children mirror the way they feel and what they're doing. And so, you know, as adults, it's really our responsibility to model, not just like what it means.
[00:12:42] To eat healthy and to work out, but it also means we have to model healthy relationships, whether it's with our partners and with our friends and healthy relationships with technology and those things really all work together. Yeah,
[00:12:55] Laura McKowen: very guilty of, not having the healthiest relationship, but [00:13:00] you know, chastising my daughter for it.
[00:13:02] What are the sort of foundational differences, uh, for gen Z's relationship with platforms that, you know, PR that, that are say different than mine, maybe even different than yours? I dunno.
[00:13:14] Larissa May: I think that, I think that, um, because I've sort of been on the cusp of gen Z for a while. I think that millennials and gen Xers have this like acceptance a lot of like the older generation, it was like, you kind of grow up in this world where you trust, not even trust companies, but you kind of just like roll with it.
[00:13:34] You're like, well, this is just the way it is. This is how the world works. And institutional trust. Yeah. We have institutional trust or we just give in to institutional. Power because that's how it works. And that's, that's what it means. You gotta work for the man. You gotta do X, Y, and Z. John. Z's not putting up with that.
[00:13:52] I think there are a couple reasons for that. One is they're living in a time where they have economic pressures. They have [00:14:00] environmental pressures, they have social pressures and social media has become a magnifying glass for all of those things, which we did not experience. And as a result, there's almost like this revolutionary rebellion happening amongst that generation where they no longer will deal with the status quo.
[00:14:18] They're not gonna work for companies that don't support their mental and physical health. They're not gonna support brands that are injust because they look at brands as an extension of themselves. And they're not just gonna. They're not just gonna fit in because to them, in some ways there's like this existentialism that I don't think we had as a young person, I was just upstate with like a hundred kids from Harlem who never left the city.
[00:14:41] And you know, when you hear like 10 year olds talking about climate change and they're like, oh, why is this happening? Well, because the climate change like that, wasn't even a world word that was in my head. And. I think, you know, gen Z in this next generation, first and foremost, they're the most connected and yet the most [00:15:00] disconnected and lonely generation in human history.
[00:15:02] Secondly, they actually have the lowest emotional intelligence out of any other generation, partly because of technology, which is actually impacting that. And thirdly, you know, on the flip side, they're actually one of the most active, empowered generations because of technology mm-hmm so we have this like super interesting paradox.
[00:15:20] They're not afraid to make noise in these digital worlds and protest and do things. But, um, and I think it's actually like creating a big uproar. I mean, all the articles are companies saying, how do we like keep this next generation in jobs? how do we change our policies 20 years ago, companies wouldn't be saying, how do we change our policies?
[00:15:40] So that kids who are 21 years old are gonna come work for us. It's completely different paradigm.
[00:15:46] Laura McKowen: how do you hold the complexity of this conversation? So people stay engaged.
[00:15:54] Larissa May: So I think the fir I mean, from half the story perspective, [00:16:00] I kind of believe in this sort of this philosophy called show don't tell, which is really rooted in the idea that experiences.
[00:16:09] Dialogue that kind of surround the, the thing, but not necessarily are directly about it tend to have the most impact because if you sit down and you tell your kid, we're gonna talk about this thing and why you're doing this, it already creates a wall. But when you really root things in emotions and experiences, and also kind of get kids to think differently or reframe it in a different reframe, these dialogues, it works well.
[00:16:36] So I think the best example of this. Is one of the things that we do in our programming is this thing called like a tech body scan. And we say, okay guys, we're gonna do like a little reflection meditation, but we're gonna do something different. We're gonna actually have you put your phone in front of your face as at the start of this meditation and scroll.
[00:16:54] And that's like the last thing that you would expect when you're getting into a meditation and we start with that and then we flip it [00:17:00] into, okay, now we're gonna put that away and do the same, like sort of tech body scan and see literally. Observe how your body in the way that you feel shifts and you know, it's very experiential rooted.
[00:17:11] It's not saying like, oh, do this, or don't do that. I think the other thing is like, you know, kids will get really riled up. It's like asking them, you know, how much money does Facebook make a month off your data? 900, $900 kids get really riled up when you talk about those things. And like, it's. This like very specific dynamic of energy.
[00:17:31] And I have to be honest, a lot of the programming that exists around mental health in schools, if it does exist is really poor and not interesting. My background is actually as a marketer and in storytelling and as a very like ADHD person, I wanted to be able to serve kids, which basically all of them don't have attention spans now.
[00:17:49] Um, and to like get them to think differently. And I think. that's what it really takes is like, how do we flip something on its head? And how do we give kids the power to say, Hey, you know what? [00:18:00] We're creating a youth council, cuz you guys are the experts at your school. If there's a social media problem with other kids on campus, we're gonna come to you.
[00:18:07] We're not gonna take this to the PR the principal. We're gonna bring this to you to deal with and come up with a solution. Mm-hmm those sorts of things. It really helps these, you know, these people feel empowered, um, to, you know, to make a.
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[00:20:06] Laura McKowen: Okay. So half the story, let's talk a little bit about that. You came up with this hashtag half the story. So talk about that. How do you, how does does that re. Do people get that? Do the kids get that?
[00:20:21] Larissa May: Oh yeah. How do you use that? I mean, that, that was like, I mean, half the story. I think half of half of anything is like the messaging behind it.
[00:20:30] And you know, that is, is a writer, just the importance of how you get people to connect to something. Half the story people are like, what do you, what's the other half of the story? Like whether or not they know out of the gate. And I think that intrinsically the, the name itself kind of provokes the question of like, okay, like, what are both sides of social media?
[00:20:49] Like, how do we look at that? Um, but also like, how is social media impacting your story online and offline? And like what parts of you is it adding to, or subtracting to? [00:21:00] Uh, it was, I. It's spread like wildfire in the beginning. I mean, I was on calls every day for like a year with kids in different countries and they were submitting their stories and kind of holding up their half of the story.
[00:21:11] And that was how it started is like a grassroots movement, truly like Gloria sand style. Um, mm-hmm and when I was, when I, I mean, starting a nonprofit. I think as a young person is probably like one of the hardest things you could ever do. Most people decide to go make money and then create a nonprofit, which I think is a really wise decision.
[00:21:30] But I think for the purposes of this, like sometimes you just have a calling in your life and you know that this is what you're supposed to do. And you're like, whether it's like sleeping on floors or like whatever the hack, it is, like, you just have to do it. And I think in a way, That's how I feel about this movement.
[00:21:47] And, um, you know, it started as that. And I basically bootstrapped it while I was running marketing at other direct to consumer brands. So basically doing two startups at once for like six years. And it wasn't until the last year that I actually was [00:22:00] able to do this full time. And I think, you know, one of the biggest things about, I guess, gen Z, that I think is a problem, is they do expect overnight success, uh, TikTok with the tos and this and that.
[00:22:12] And it's like, oh, I've been doing this for seven years. In some ways I feel like it's just the beginning and it's like almost a little hard to grapple with because it's just so much work that it's like, how could this possibly this much work be this much work seven years in. Um, but I guess that's also just part of character building in life and that like nothing good comes easy.
[00:22:32] And if you wanna have a purpose driven life, then you know, you're gonna have to pay the price in another way.
[00:22:39] Laura McKowen: completely. Yes. Yes. Uh, in a, so in the recent study that we found, um, gen Z of gen Z, it said 63% of, um, mental healthcare was the number one workplace benefit that they wanted, like 63% of gen Z folks said, um, after a four, after a four 401k, [00:23:00] that's what they wanted.
[00:23:01] And right. They're a lot more comfortable speaking about it. I mean, my daughter talks about mental health all the time and it was a, it. You know, it's not that I didn't talk about it, but it, her friends all talk about it. I I'm anxious. I'm depressed. I have, you know, the so and so as having mental health problems of their friends, you know, and, and in this very nonjudgmental way, that must be helpful that they have grown up in that.
[00:23:28] How do you talk to them about the mental health
[00:23:31] Larissa May: piece? Well, first and foremost, I mean, I was just doing a ton of lobbying for bills in California. All this spring. And if you look at a graph that, and we actually worked on the Facebook files piece that came out in wall street journals last year. So like all those girls in that piece were from our organization.
[00:23:49] Um, amazing like those stories. And so I think I've spent a lot of time looking at the data and that was actually something I started doing when I was younger. Here's the truth is that a [00:24:00] lot of the data around mental health and social media has actually been. Like produced by the people that are creating the problems.
[00:24:06] And I think as a society, we trust headlines, we trust X percent did this X percent did that without really understanding the statist statistical relevance of the studies that are conducted. And I think I say that because like, we've got a long way to go and that's something that half the story wants to play a part in and being like a non-biased, you know, institution that can do that.
[00:24:29] But. In terms of correlation. So if you look at basically adoption rates of social media, specifically Instagram for a young woman, and you look at the rates of anxiety, depression, and suicides, the curves basically exponentially grow it almost the same rate since 2008. And to me, like that's not a coincidence.
[00:24:51] Uh I think, you know, yes, we have lots of other pressures in our society, but undoubtedly. Social media is a place where this, these [00:25:00] kids are gonna spend 30 years of their life, literally because the average American teen spends eight hours a day online. And so when you think about that, so the first thing is like, you know, increase in depression, anxiety, suicide rates for young women increase by 51% last year, which is wild.
[00:25:17] Um, the other thing is that, you know, and this is part of digital wellbeing, but overdoses have increased. It was like by 50. In 2020, and then an additional 20% in 2021 part of that is because social media is opened a whole other world for kids to actually buy and sell drugs. And there's a whole marketplace within these platforms.
[00:25:36] And so, you know, I think those are just like two clear things, but outside of that, like overwhelmingly between men, woman, You know, non-binary individuals we're seeing, and we did research on this. So it's basically three key problems that young people are trying to solve. One is time management. Like they're really struggling with time management, which of course has an impact on your mental [00:26:00] health.
[00:26:00] Um, the second is overall body image and self-esteem, and then the third is just general mood management. So a lot of them are finding that social media is negatively impacting their mood and, and not really knowing like how. how to ultimately like shift that. So those are, um, those are kind of the three big things that we've seen outside of some of the other stuff that I mentioned.
[00:26:24] And, you know, we still have a lot more research to do. I think when we look ahead and look forward, I think my biggest concern, just looking at the way that these young malleable brains have been hooked is like, I really fear that this generation is going to. more Alzheimer's in dementia than any other one in history.
[00:26:42] And I think that that's like, what's, that's, what's really at stake. And I don't think we talk about it a lot, but as a futurist and, and sort of a person that likes to look forward, I see that as a real, a real reality.
[00:26:55] Laura McKowen: What's the correlation there, the contributing factors.
[00:26:58] Larissa May: So here's, [00:27:00] you know, the thing that's really interesting is people don't like when people ask why is it so bad for young brains to be on social media?
[00:27:08] We don't really talk about why. So here's why you have two big parts of your brain. You have your limbic system, which is the part of your brain that is basically activi activated by emotions. And it's the part of your brain that is developed. More developed as a young person. And it's part of why teenagers are moodier as a younger person.
[00:27:29] Like you're so much more emotionally impacted because that's kind of like the more developed part of your brain. Then you have the ex executive functioning part of your brain, right? The prefrontal cortex. And, uh, that part of your brain doesn't really develop until your late twenties. And so when you're a young kid, Social media is basically manipulating your emotions and your idea of what affirmation means.
[00:27:53] And your brain is really relying on that limbic system. And, you know, at the end of the day, our [00:28:00] brains were not built for technology. And if you step back and look, and as a young person like that, part of your brain, those pathways are literally telling you that social media is what affirmation means.
[00:28:11] And it isn't actually true. It has profound impacts and is undoubtedly shifting the way that our brains work and, you know, the brain is the least looked at organ in the body. When it comes to having issues, you have an arm broken, you get an x-ray, you have a heart problem. You get an EKG, you have depression, no one is really looking at your brain.
[00:28:31] And I think that this is gonna, this is gonna, this is gonna bite back at us. And, you know, even the metaverse, I have a, one of our neuroscientist. recently did like a little project on what happens to kids when they're in the metaverse all day. Of course. And Indi, can
[00:28:48] Laura McKowen: you explain what the metaverse is to people?
[00:28:50] Oh, geez. Somebody I'm not, I'm not sure that that's a widely known
[00:28:55] Larissa May: thing. So basically mark Zuckerberg decided that he wanted to create the next [00:29:00] frontier of the internet, which is basically a three dimensional world. So in the world that we live in, social media is a part of our physical existence, but in the meta.
[00:29:10] We our world is the metaverse. So we enter the metaverse as opposed to the social media entering our world. And what that means is that like meetings, for example, or social events, like conferences and concerts, you put on a pair of goggles and you enter this metaverse and you're getting stimuli from a 360.
[00:29:32] it's like living your life in a video game and , it's like you take all of the problems that we have in the 2d world, and then you apply them to 3d. So we have problems of filters right now, right. And, and young woman having self-esteem issues and wanting to get all these, all this work done. Now imagine being in a world where you can literally walk around and see what your body is like in 3d, by making your waist smaller and your leg skinnier.
[00:29:58] I. You'll never [00:30:00] wanna leave that world because you're gonna start feeling more confident in a, in a metaverse than you are in real life and right. Yeah. That's, that's the truth. And like, there's just so much that we're not, there's so much we're not discussing and it is scary and it like makes you cringe.
[00:30:14] But I think we have to realize what's at stake and the opportunity cost for humanity.
[00:30:20] Laura McKowen: How do you feel about tips, tricks, hacks? Are those things that you teach and. and, and then do you feel like we stand a chance against, against the, the
[00:30:33] Larissa May: institutions as they are today? Yeah, I do. I think as a, as a human, you have a choice right?
[00:30:40] In the same way that some of us us have choices of, are we gonna, you know, stay up all night? Are we gonna drink one glass of wine versus 10? Like, there are choices that you have to make and when it comes to the internet and it starts with in. There are active ways and passive ways to consume technology.
[00:30:57] Not all screen time is created [00:31:00] equal in the same way that not all calories are created equal. Uh, active consumption is a positive and active reason to be online, which means I have an intention to be here, whether it's to connect, to create or consume, you know, what you're there to do. Passive consumption is where you get in trouble.
[00:31:16] Zoned
[00:31:17] Laura McKowen: out scrolling
[00:31:18] Larissa May: type of thing. Yeah. I mean, the way I describe it is like, you know, you're bored, you're sad. You're using it as a coping tool and you get on your phone and get into a rabbit hole. That's equivalent to like being sad and pulling out a family size bag of Cheetos and eating the whole thing, because like, it's just like empty calories.
[00:31:33] And I think that's really where the conversation begins, but when it comes to like hacking your phone, it's, you know, for example, gray scale, have you ever tried. I have, so yeah. So gray scout. Yeah, because why did you hate it? Because your brain hates it and our brains will love anything, you know, when you have a baby and like, they're just starting to see color and you're dangling all these like colorful things in front of them, it ignites parts of their [00:32:00] brain.
[00:32:00] So when you zap all the color out of your phone, it becomes much Bo, much more boring and less interesting. And I think that, you know, as individuals, we, you know, we can do. There's other things like delete as many apps as possible that you haven't used in the last five days. Um, turn off all your notifications, put all of your social media apps into a little square of three things in so that you really have to look for them.
[00:32:26] Like, you know, don't make it as obvious, like you have to work for it, um, to make it a reality. And in order to like really combat. Combat combat these these platforms because taco's not built to support us. It was built to hook us because our it's the attention economy, the more attention that they have from us, the more money they're making period.
[00:32:49] Yep. So
[00:32:51] Laura McKowen: what works to reduce harm? Like, no, one's gonna give it up. Yeah,
[00:32:56] Larissa May: no, one's, it's, it's really skill it's skill development. [00:33:00] Right. So it's like, you know, how do you. Improve digital. So it starts with, we have four steps, define, identify, reflect slash engage and resolve. So it starts with understanding, like, what does digital wellbeing mean to you?
[00:33:13] How is social media impacting your emotions? We've actually developed an AI tool that allows teens to look at their mood against their screen time and how they felt. And, you know, that's something that I think is super important for us just as like. as an organization to really pair those things. We can't look at mental health and mood over here and screen time over here.
[00:33:35] They need to really come together. Yeah. So I think, you know, that's it, I think this is not a, it's not black or white. It's great. And that's what makes the work really hard and that mental health isn't black or white, it's not like this person's depressed this person. Isn't. I think what we're trying to do as an organization is to develop more and more scales so that we can effectively measure this and allow other people to do it too.
[00:33:57] Um, so that we can actually continue to have more [00:34:00] of a position to create more of this change on a legislative and global level. What's
[00:34:05] Laura McKowen: most been most effective in terms of where you reach the kids. That seems to be really important, the context in which they encounter these ideas. Well,
[00:34:14] Larissa May: I think first and foremost, like when they, we work with schools, we bring in our own facilitators.
[00:34:18] They're like people in their twenties that are look working towards their L MFT because here's the truth. They don't wanna hear a 50 year old. Tell them about social media. , that's just, that's like the reality. So for us, like, you know, that, that works really effectively. The peer to peer groups work. Um, we're working on like a sort of peer led support group model, uh, for kids that are struggling and that's like a really impactful model.
[00:34:44] Um, and you know, also they love, we do like advocacy events outside in the real world screen free weekends. Like they love that as well. So, you know, there's lots of different ways to reach them. I think it's just about making them feel like they're actually empowered and not just like [00:35:00] being taught something.
[00:35:02] Laura McKowen: I would imagine there's this kind of relief also that you must encounter when you bring this up.
[00:35:09] Larissa May: It is relief. I think like there's so much just negative. There's a lot of negative energy out there. Like there's a lot of negative news. There's a lot of negative dialogue about social media. Like there's just a lot of negativity and like, you know, I'm, I'm definitely a glass half full kind of person, but I think like for kids to be in an environment in the situation where they don't feel.
[00:35:31] Like victims or they don't feel like villains is really positive and we can't victimize kids and we can't villainize kids, especially when it comes to digital wellbeing, maybe to
[00:35:42] Laura McKowen: sort of tie this all off. What does a, what have you seen happen? Like real cases where kids, what does a healthy relationship actually look like?
[00:35:51] Like if you break down a day?
[00:35:52] Larissa May: Well, yeah, I, I mean, So I think going back to what we were saying is like digital, like starting your day screen [00:36:00] free ending your day screen free. You need an alarm clock, right? I think it's like starting ending your day screen free, having other coping mechanisms for the way that you feel outside of going on your phone, like journaling, like even picking up knitting, like coloring, um, and also engaging in social connection without devices.
[00:36:17] Like those are three positive things I think for. You know, we try to also get kids to eliminate the things that are clouding their, their digital world, um, like deleting accounts and apps and platforms and, and people that make them not feel good. And so, you know, I think it's like small, small hinges move, big doors.
[00:36:37] It's like if you wake up every day and you have blueberries instead of having a peanut butter and jelly or toast and jelly, Like that's one small thing that can over the grand scheme, like change the trajectory of your life. And I think that's what we're after right now is like, what are the small things that can make big changes?
[00:36:53] If a kid gets one habit out of this program, then we can impact one kid through one habit that's positive. We [00:37:00] can get a kid to say, you know, I'm actually feeling terrible and I'm not gonna like go on my phone. I'm gonna go do something else that's positive. Um, and I think that's, you know, and the journey continues to, you know, unfold from.
[00:37:14] Laura McKowen: I love it. I'm gonna talk to my, my daughter about the starting, starting the day, that way. Cuz that, that, that kills me. I mean, it kills me when I do it.
[00:37:23] Larissa May: Yeah. There's actually like some research that just came out about how it ultimately interferes with like your brainwaves and the way that it works when you start your day, that way.
[00:37:33] So yeah.
[00:37:35] Laura McKowen: I'm so glad you're doing this work seriously. What kind of resistance have you encountered? Have. Has it been, have you had people try to shut this down?
[00:37:45] Larissa May: Um, you know, I haven't had anyone try to shut it down, which is almost like a harder spot to be in it's like, it's like people are either supportive or they question, but they don't shut it down.
[00:37:56] I think. Yeah. Um, you know, there's [00:38:00] definitely a lot of resistance and that people are like, what do you mean? Like, you know, help, like positive and healthier relationships with technology. It's always an uphill battle. Like literally I think one of the things that I've learned as a founder is like, you, you is that you have to put on earmuff sometimes because everyone has something to say.
[00:38:18] And so I think I'm just learning how to put on earmuffs more and just kind of know that there's gonna be people that are, there's gonna be people that are for the mission and there's gonna be people that don't get it and like anything in life, you just have to find your people and put the rest in the background.
[00:38:33] I've just been, I just listened to the ambitious woman podcast with Megan Markle and Serena Williams. And, you know, they were talking a lot about sort of abandoning fear and how you develop muscles. And, you know, the more as a founder, you're in the game, you start to just kind of like get stronger and like push the other stuff aside.
[00:38:51] And I think I'm just sort of getting to that point finally, where I'm able to ask for what I need. I'm able to just look at people and be like, if this doesn't seem important to you, [00:39:00] that's okay. Like, I don't really care. Um, not personal anymore. No, I just, I don't care because at the end of the day, it's not about me and this thing has taken on such another life of its own, um, which is positive and, you know, but also has its own set of struggles.
[00:39:17] So I don't know. I think I'm just learning to just not care about what people think. Like truly, I think it's like one thing to say it it's another thing to do it. And like, even like this week, it's like someone will be like, oh, well I don't think this marketing material brings out this or that. And I. Or someone's like, I wanna hear about this or that.
[00:39:33] And like, you have to learn to say, no, you have to learn to prioritize. And you have to learn that actually more people are trying to get something from you than they are trying to support you. And I think that's the biggest shift that I'm experiencing now is like, is that I, as I grow up really identifying who is here to support and.
[00:39:52] Like not be a fair weather friend versus who is here to take something from me and understanding what is that value and what do I need to [00:40:00] make sure I'm getting out of situations that I'm giving in? So that's like my that's my
[00:40:03] Laura McKowen: new truth. Again, I'm just so grateful you're doing the work. It's I think one of the most important things that is that we need to pay attention to in this, thank you in this generation.
[00:40:14] And I, I support you. And if any way I can support you. Thank you. I
[00:40:19] Larissa May: really appreciate it, Laura.
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