In this final episode of Tell Me Something True, Laura explains why we made the choice to wrap after 67 episodes, 600,000 downloads and say a MASSIVE THANK YOU to the quarter of a million folks who have said YES to an uncompromising show dedicated to falling in love with the mystery of life again.
As we announced last week, this is the last episode of Tell Me Something True. Today, Laura walks through why we made this decision (it’s all fine, nothing is wrong!)
A thing worth celebrating is that, over 67 episodes, nearly a quarter of a million adventurous, curious people said YES and pressed play over 600,000 times. Holy cow…that’s A LOT!!!!!
The numbers only matter because they’re the mirror of how much YOU - and thousands of folks like you - said yes to falling in love with the mystery of life again. With every episode we asked, “how can this help someone to have a better next week?” We’re so grateful that you have been interested in going on this adventure with us. All of the episodes will stay up and we hope you’ll share them and return to these shows as you’re looking for inspiration, comfort, new tools, and new ideas.
And we hope you’ll lease keep in touch!
If you have a passionate idea for a show, or a message that absolutely MUST be heard, give Mikel a holler here: https://www.liminahouse.com/
Laura’s site (https://www.lauramckowen.com/) and her IG are the best way to say hey (https://www.instagram.com/laura_mckowen/) and pre-orders for her new book, Push Off From Here are happening! (https://www.lauramckowen.com/books/push-off-from-here)
Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/67-laura-mckowen-on-why-we-are-wrapping-tmst
Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/07kXA2JZj7QaprV563Wfvj
Here’s the transcript: https://tell-me-something-true.simplecast.com/episodes/laura-on-why-were-wrapping-tmst-BVRgiJfS/transcript
TMST Members - We will take care of canceling the membership program and you will not see any new charges. It’s impossible to say how much we appreciate your support of the show. You made a difference and we are forever grateful.
TMST Final Episode final
[00:00:00] Laura McKowen: Hey friends, it's Laura. Welcome to TMS T and to the last episode of TMS T. Yes, you heard that right? If you missed last week's episode with Melissa Urban, I announced that we were bringing the show to a close. And that this episode would be the last, I'm gonna spend the time today talking about how the show came to be, who's behind it, what the experience has been like, and then the why and how of arriving at the decision to end it.
[00:00:38] I'm also sharing a good amount of behind the scenes stuff about podcasting in general. Aside from wanting to give a proper farewell and share our sincere gratitude for the people who have spent time with us like you. I also wanna share this extra context because I think it's really helpful and personally super interesting to [00:01:00] hear the truth about why we might quit.
[00:01:02] Things that are going well, even things that we really enjoy and have fun with, or sometimes even make us a lot of money. Although this is not one of those stories. and I wanna share some behind the scenes stuff that's mostly hidden about being a creator, because I think to the outside world, the whole thing can be really mysterious and often look a lot more glamorous than it is and easier than it is.
[00:01:27] And to the inside. If you're a podcaster or a writer or some other kind of creative may feel really isolating If you're not getting the results you think other people are or you're not absolutely loving it. Or you do love it, but you're exhausted by it. So that's where we're headed, friends. All right, off we go.[00:02:00]
[00:02:01] All right, so Tm s t began back in the summer of 2019, which feels like a thousand years ago. . Uh, but Mikel Ellcessor , the producer of this show, reached out to me via Instagram. And I had just wrapped up another podcast and he reached out to say, Hey, I know you just wrapped up a show, but if you'd ever like to take a third bite of the apple, I would love to talk.
[00:02:25] And oh, by the way, I'm the co-creator of Radiolab. Okay? For reference, Radiolab. Is still my all time favorite podcast. It was my intro to podcasting before it was even called Podcasting really, And it was that show, in addition to Mark Maron's wtf that got me sort of thinking about how incredible it would be to one day do a podcast.
[00:02:47] Even though that was a very far off fantasy, I had no idea how it was done, and I would never purport to say I've created shows equivalent to those two. But it, I fell in love [00:03:00] with the format. . So I responded to Mikel with a lot of, Oh my Gods and wows, and yes, let's talk someday. Although at the time I wasn't sure I'd ever wanna do another.
[00:03:13] Fast forward a year or so, which is of course early 2020, and Mikel and I reconnect and start toying with the idea of doing something together. It was the early days of the pandemic. My book, We Are The Luckiest, had just come out and Id just started tlc, The Luckiest Club, which is a sobriety support community.
[00:03:36] We started having calls and Zoom meetings to brainstorm and conceptualize what a show might look like. We knew we wanted to create a show that went deeper than normal, that cut through, ideally all this chaos and helped people connect to their humanity and what was real when that signal was becoming increasingly hard to [00:04:00] access.
[00:04:01] That winter, we'd come up with a concept and the show was originally called Love Story based on a poem of mine. The idea being that our lives are ultimately love stories. They're just not the kind we think. Okay. I'm gonna pause before I go further into that part of the story. I want to give you a little insider peek into podcasting.
[00:04:23] This is important because it shaped a lot of the choices we made and influences the podcast you're listening to every weekend. I'm not sure the most people outside of podcasters know what this is like or know what these models are. . So over the past five to seven years, podcasting has exploded, as you have no doubt noticed.
[00:04:47] Broadly speaking, there are two models for podcasting. You're either independent or you're part of a network. I'm gonna break those two down, so, Each of these models has [00:05:00] their own set of pluses and minuses. Of course, there's no better model. Uh, they're just different. One of the places where they have the biggest differences in the business model, which is like how do you pay for the production expenses and whether or not you have an opportunity to make any money.
[00:05:15] Sometimes podcasts literally are a single person with a mic and a wifi connection loading up, you know, their, their tracks. Far more often, there's a lot more involved than that, certainly with any of the podcasts that you listen to that sound really good and that are really well produced and have, you know, in depth reporting or in depth coverage of, of some kind of topic.
[00:05:42] So I'll start with the podcasts that are part of a network. So network is something like Cadence 13 or Spotify or what used to be gim. Um, there's tons of these production networks now. Podcasting networks rather, [00:06:00] and being a podcaster on these networks can get a lot of benefit. The network typically secures the funding for the show, including sponsors.
[00:06:09] They provide the team to support producing the show and getting it out. So, Say the, the hosts will record the show and then they ship the track to the team and they take care of everything else. The host typically get some kind of revenue guarantee, but those can vary wildly in most cases. In this model, the creators, the owners of the podcast, or rather the, the.
[00:06:36] The hosts, they don't own the IP to the show, which is the intellectual property or the creative. They don't own the show itself. They're under contract for a specific amount of time. Uh, like for example, they'll produce 40 episodes a year for three years, and sometimes there are restrictions about what they can talk about.
[00:06:57] Joe Rogan and Brene Brown [00:07:00] joining Spotify are two big. very, uh, rare types of deals I will say that you might have heard about, but there's tons of others. The other model is if you're an independent like us and you own everything in this model, you also are responsible for running everything. So that includes paying for any help, like an editor or a website person, or a social media person.
[00:07:29] Someone who creates those audio clips that you see on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook that help promote the shows. Being independent is great because you own all of your ip, your intellectual property, so you can do whatever you want with the show. You can say whatever you want. You get to keep the show, you decide you own everything.
[00:07:49] But like I said, you're also responsible for everything and to pay for the cost of doing this type of show. You, um, can [00:08:00] either solicit your own ads and add deals from sponsors to support their show, and then the hosts have to run those ad the ads themselves in the shows. You hear this all the time, right?
[00:08:12] This is why I support Athletic Greens. This is why I support Square Space. This show is brought to you by me. Undies, all of that and. . Then there's listeners supported. Okay, so there's, under the independent model, there's ads and then there's listeners supported through something like Patreon or the platform we used, which is called Super Cast.
[00:08:35] This means that people who wanna support the show can do so by becoming quote unquote members at different tiered levels. $5, $10, $15 a month, and sometimes those members get access to other content. Some people do a combination of ads and these listener supported models. When Mikel and I had our concept in good shape, we created a pitch.
[00:08:59] We [00:09:00] weren't sure which model we wanted to go with, so we created a pitch and we started shopping it around some to some of these production companies. We got in pretty deep with a few of them, including Spotify, which we almost decided to do. But after a few months of back and forth, we ultimately decided to pass.
[00:09:19] And we made this decision primarily because we wanted full control over the creative and the show, and we also didn't run a run ads. We felt and still strongly feel that the TMS d subject matter just works better in a non-commercial format. Okay, so back to the origin story. From January to June in 2021, we planned the show.
[00:09:46] Mikel because he has an extensive network for being in this bus from being in this business for so long found us our producer, Paul Chuffo. And we also brought in a couple others to help us hone the show production process. We hired a social media intern at the onset to get us going, a paid social media intern.
[00:10:07] I built the website. We got set up on all the various software you need to produce and promote a show. Set up the member platform and community, and about six weeks before we launched a show, we decided to name it, Tell Me Something True Instead of Love Story. While in another brainstorming meeting, our tagline and the mission of the show became a show for people who want to fall in love with the mystery of life.
[00:10:41] So we secured our first several guests who included Cheryl Strayed, yung pueblo, Peter Rollins, and africa brooke. We recorded those episodes and then we launched in late June, 2021. So just to recap, we spent nearly a year in discussions and planning before we actually launched the show. Now admittedly, Mikel and I are both pretty epic control freaks, and even though it's always been easy to find agreement on what we wanna do with the show, we tweaked every tiny detail You can imagine how many hours that wrecks up.
[00:11:21] Hundreds of hours, hundreds of hours. From the gate, the show did really well. Numbers wise. According to Podcast Statist, we were in the top 1%. I'm only telling you this so you get a feel for what statistical success looks like for podcast. Statistical success though doesn't translate to necessarily anything.
[00:11:45] Our membership, uh, started to grow out slow, as is normal. This is the, the supporting listeners, but over time, we grew to have 200, 300, 400 paying members. As we close out the show, we are at 539 paying members as of today, which means we get approximately 3000 a month in revenue. Up until a few months ago, this money that we got from the show went straight into paying off our startup expenses.
[00:12:16] So that was up until a few months ago. It took us long, that long to do that and to cover ongoing expenses for software and such. Compensating our social media intern when we had her and paying Paul, uh, for his tireless work, editing the show every week when we were. Mikel and I didn't make a dime, but we knew that would probably be the case, and while we weren't in it for the money only, we definitely did want this to be a profitable enterprise for both of us.
[00:12:50] In addition, I paid someone. A thousand dollars a month out of pocket to do some of the administrative work every week associated with getting the episodes up, including posting it to the website, posting it to our members, only feed, creating the image assets, because that was part of my responsibility and I just did not have the time to do it.
[00:13:09] So. . When you spend 15, 20, 30 hours a week on a project, you kind of need it to be worth it monetarily or otherwise, to justify spending that much time. After a while, we at least needed to recoup our startup costs. So that's the financial snapshot of this show. Again, it's not everything, but it's not nothing either.
[00:13:32] And this stuff so rarely gets talked about, but I believe it. I believe it should be.
[00:13:41] Now I wanna tell you about the experience of doing this show. At least from my perspective. It's always a precarious thing to go into a creative project with someone. I know this from having done it several times. Mikel and I have both had our fair share of experience with this. We knew how wildly rare it is to have.
[00:14:04] A positive, healthy, sustainable, creative collaboration with someone, which is why we spent a year just talking and figuring out if it would work. So we definitely struggled here. Of all the things I've gained from doing this show, knowing Mikel and having him in my corner as something of a mentor and a teacher in this medium, because he's had so much experience as well as an amazing co-creator.
[00:14:33] He delivers. He's invested. He's got very little ego. It was incredible. When you do something like this, you end up talking to this person a lot. Like a lot, a lot. Like daily. We talked most days over the course of doing this show, sometimes on weekends, both about the show, like what's working, what's not, Sharing ideas for guests, brainstorming, reflecting.
[00:15:02] But inevitably you also end up talking about life too. And I mean basically, damn, you better really appreciate talking to that person. So my friendship and collaboration with Mikel has been one of the best parts of doing this thing. I also, I've talked about this before on the show, but I got to learn a skill I didn't really have any experience with, which is interviewing people.
[00:15:31] Although I've done two other shows and we did interview people, I did interview people with Holly on home. I had no idea how to interview or host a show myself because I always had the prior shows, had co-hosts. I cringe so hard to think back on how I talked over people, how I had to like plus one every answer they gave and on and on.
[00:15:56] But learning this. At least, [00:16:00] you know, moving the needle a little bit on my skill set there on this show has been humbling, but also really, really cool. So then there's meeting people, the guests who I'd never otherwise be able to have a conversation with. Young Pueblo, Jen Wassner, Brandon Collinsworth, the poet, Frank Walker.
[00:16:22] So many authors I admire. That is just the best, and it was a huge reason I wanted to do another show and also exposing other people to. these people's work. That was really important to me and Mikel, I love turning people onto work. It's why I love making book recommendations, especially turning people onto work they wouldn't otherwise know about because we can't.
[00:16:51] Know about so many people. There's just so much beautiful work out there. Uh, one of the highlights also was traveling to Austin for so by Southwest to record a panel with Jason Isbell, who I've been just a longtime fan of meeting Jan Rader and Wes Hurt. That stuff wouldn't have happened had we not had the show.
[00:17:13] And lastly, I also enjoy, like really enjoy doing solo episodes, even though it's an insane amount of work for me. It might not be for other people. I don't know. It's kind of this like high wire act and it challenged me in a specific way, so I appreciated that. All in all. Mikel and I are incredibly proud of every episode we've released here.
[00:17:40] Really, really proud, and I do believe we set out what we intended to do. All right, so you may be wondering why are you ending it? What hell are you ending the show then? For me, it comes down to two things. One is more practical and the other is more like gut or intuitive driven, I guess you could say. The first thing is straight up about working less.
[00:18:10] This has been a weekly show. We've never missed. A week in 15 months. Not one. Twice we were posted a show with some new, like upfront context, an old show twice, but that's it. Every week it was new. And just about every week we had an interview. Some weeks meaning I recorded an interview. Um, Some weeks I recorded three or we recorded three.
[00:18:37] So here's what's involved in, in an interview episode. You have to continually recruit guests. That's no surprise. Uh, we did the recruiting too. Mikel and I, you have to schedule those guests. Sometimes you're doing pre-interviews just to make sure you know, if you're not super familiar with someone to make sure it's the right match for the show, [00:19:00] uh, then you have to do research on them.
[00:19:02] That research can take anywhere from like two hours to 10 hours more if it, if they have a book that I need to read, which is often the case. You have to prepare the outline for this show, which me and Mikel did together. You have to actually record the episode, which is an hour to 90 minutes. You then write the introduction to the episode, which Mikel did you edit the episode, which is a massive effort.
[00:19:33] Mikel did that. And then you publish the episodes in two forms. We did one for the public, which is the edited version, and one for members, which was. Unedited cut. You have to create the images, post them to social media, and then you post the, the episode to our website. You post the show transcript, and then you continue to promote the show until the next one comes out.
[00:19:59] You respond to [00:20:00] social media comments and messages and emails in your inbox, all of that. So that's what's involved in an interview episode. Additionally, Mikel and I have also always had a weekly production meeting in addition to, you know, the, the daily conversations we have, and we also, in the beginning launched a private community, so we were managing that, troubleshooting tech issues, creating conversational content, responding to members, and generally just trying to make it worth their time and investment to be there.
[00:20:34] So in summary, on interview weeks, I spent 10 to 15 hours on the show. That's say when we have an interview. Um, coming out on solo episode weeks, it was more like 20 to 30 hours. and like most people who do podcasts, it's not my only job. I also run the [00:21:00] Luckiest Club, which is, like I said, a sobriety support community.
[00:21:03] I started in 2020, which now has three full-time employees. About 15 contractors. And I wanna add in here in just full transparency, that like most business owners, I have not made. I am, yes, I am building equity in a company that is a real thing, but I have not made a dime or profited off of tlc. Anything I've made, I've invested right back into the business and then some.
[00:21:32] And as the founder and owner, it's been a net loss so far. And. Pretty much the norm for business owners in the beginning. I'm not saying this with any kind of pride, I'm just sharing the reality because I think from the outside it's often assumed that people running a business or with a founder or CEO title next to their name are just like raking in cash, and that's often, especially in the early [00:22:00] years, just not true.
[00:22:02] My income primarily comes from book royalties and an advance for my latest book, and then occasionally running courses. So what I'm saying here is that I essentially had two very fulfilling, but ultimately non-pay and even net loss jobs. Money-wise, these two jobs equaled far more than a full-time job, hours-wise.
[00:22:31] During the entirety of this show, I was writing my latest book during the entirety of this show. The one that's gonna come out next year, push off from here. And I occasionally teach courses non-professionally. I'm a mom, I am a partner, and you know, I actually like to have a life. I'm also 45 and not 25.
[00:22:54] And. Just have found, especially in the past couple years, [00:23:00] I don't wanna work like I did when I was 25. I, I almost can't either. I like spending time doing other things. I, even though I have always largely identified with work, um, I can't and don't want to work like I did it. It was not healthy. . Mikel's no different.
[00:23:22] He has his hands in all kinds of things running his own consultancy and production house, and he's also a father of two. So I am not telling you this to tell you how much I accomplish. I hope if you've been listening to me and you're familiar, With my content, you know that it's, that's not it. I wanna share the reality of what it is like to run a podcast in addition to a very full time work life and life life, which is how it is for most people who do podcasts.
[00:23:55] I'm telling you this because it was too much, and [00:24:00] toward the end of my book writing this summer, I was. I was not doing well, like at all. I was really struggling. I think , I think just having a book deadline, I'm learning, you know, uh, in my experience of just writing too, it's such an intense time anyway, but I might have been struggling anyway, but I was super struggling and it was just too much.
[00:24:29] So it's hard. When you work for yourself as I have for the past seven years to see the way that work bleeds into everything. And I'm used to it. And I've also, I genuinely am so grateful that I do work that I love. Um, and oftentimes I just haven't wanted to step back because I do really love it that. , but also I've used work to [00:25:00] fill a void.
[00:25:01] I have really struggled with overworking. I, um, have used work to create meaning in my life and get positive feedback and, you know, achieve things that I. Getting in other areas of my life, I, that has all been true at various points, and that's okay. It's just, I'm, I'm just acknowledging that that's true.
[00:25:30] But I would say since about 2021, I've felt more and more like I don't want to live that way. I think this is a common thing that people are taking away from being in the pandemic. Here's where I recognize the many privileges I have. A lot of people can't just decide that they don't want to live that way, but I can't, I don't have to [00:26:00] work that way to survive.
[00:26:01] I have built an audience community following whatever the hell we wanna call it. I don't like any of those words, but I've built a community of people who are willing to invest in me and my work. Over the past 10 years. I have a decent social media following. I have a great email list, and my first book did really well by book standards.
[00:26:26] I have again, the privilege of saying, I don't want to live that way, this way, work this way. Here's some other things that make that possible. These are the privileges I'm talking about. I have since 2020, had a partner for the first time in, you know, since I was married 10 years ago. He shares the financial responsibilities of our home and our life with me.
[00:26:51] I have a co-parent who is. , very responsible and capable and shares the expenses of Alma's life fully. 50, 50% with me, and I've had a master's degree level education, which I paid for, but nonetheless, I have that and the network that comes with it. I also have 15 years of experience in marketing before I went off on my own.
[00:27:21] I, I am healthy, huge. My kid is healthy, my family is healthy, and I have been able to pay off all my debt. I had six figure debt and I've been able to pay that off over the past 5, 6, 7 years. And then there's the, the part where, Expect to be okay in a sense because I've never experienced many of the blocks and systemic barriers that other people who don't look like I do, don't have the background.
[00:27:54] I do don't have the upbringing I do or the support I have experience. [00:28:00] I've never had that, and that's not the case for everybody. And this may sound like a tangent of some sort, but it's not, It's totally relevant and something that so rarely gets expressed. I haven't expressed it very often, uh, at least not publicly, and it's something I wouldn't have even really seen or admitted to even five years ago.
[00:28:25] But I see so clearly now that I've been doing this for longer. Experienced it for longer, looked around a lot more, and I think it's necessary to say it, and I'm making a point to say it more often. There are also a lot of privileges that keep podcasting going like a lot, a lot. It's part of why podcasting sounds like it does for the most part, and it's one of the things that keeps it from reaching deeper into our culture.
[00:28:55] Okay, so rounding into this summer, [00:29:00] especially as I was on deadline for my book and I was supremely on edge, I, like I said, I would've been otherwise, but even if, even if I didn't have the podcast or tlc, I think, but I was jacked up and edgy and shitty to be around and not sleeping. Kind of miserable inside and I kept hearing this voice screaming, simplify, Do less.
[00:29:24] Stop, stop. But then I would look around and I feel and feel like there, like what am I gonna let go of? This show was only a year in and it was going really well and. wasn't that too soon to throw in the towel and, and TLC really isn't going anywhere. It actually isn't. Nor do I want it to. So that is the practical side of why this show is ending.
[00:29:56] Then comes the second part, which is about [00:30:00] creative focus. This happened more by coincidence, although I don't totally believe in randomness. Uh, about two months ago, beginning of August, I read this book called Tomorrow And Tomorrow. And Tomorrow by Gabrielle Evan. It just completely blew me away and by the time I finished it, something in me had just shifted.
[00:30:24] I'm sure you know those books. There've been. Just a handful in my life. The ones that come to mind are the Beja, the History of Love, which I say is my favorite book. It's the reason I named my daughter Alma Nicole Krause wrote that Tiny beautiful things East of Eden. Ask again. Yes. These are the ones that come to mind in these books.
[00:30:50] The story. Transported me, yes, but also the artistry of the writing and the way the story was told just totally changed what I understood to [00:31:00] be possible in writing. I finished tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow, late one night in bed, way past when my boyfriend had gone to sleep, and when I closed my Kindle, I immediately looked up Gabrielle seven.
[00:31:15] I learned that she's exactly my age, 45 or soon to be 45, and that this book was her 10th 10th book. This is someone who has dedicated her life to this craft. I had a hard time going to sleep that night and woke up early the next morning and waited for my boyfriend to wake up so I could talk his face off about the book, about her, about everything I was thinking and.
[00:31:45] the main thing I was thinking was this, I need to know, I want to know, need to know if I can do anything close to that book. And I wanna pour all my creative and [00:32:00] mental energy into, into trying, uh, not into podcasting, not into running a business. And the truth is, like I said, I really, really like podcasting, but I don't love it.
[00:32:12] Not the way. I know you need to love something that pees next to nothing and requires so much. I do love writing that way. I love books that way. I am willing to go all in on that without a promise of certain rewards or whatever. I had to feel like. There's two camps of work. There's work you justify doing.
[00:32:36] because you're so in love with it and you can't not do it. And then there's work you justify doing because you have to do it. It's necessary. You have to support yourself, your family, even if you don't like it. Uh, and this podcast fell into neither of those categories. . So it was as simple and as complicated as all [00:33:00] that wanting and needing to work less and wanting to focus all my creative energy into writing as many books as I can before I cannot write books anymore.
[00:33:11] And yes, trying it fiction even. So I'm speaking obvious about my process because, uh, it's mine and not Mikel’s because I don't want to speak for. But when I broached him with these thoughts, we realized we were more on the same page than not. We were in continual conversations about the show as we went along anyway, and in the end, we were both really committed to ending a project with integrity.
[00:33:39] Something I haven't always done in the past, and integrity with each other, but also with you, the listeners. as for our paying members, um, we sent an email to you before the show aired, offering our deepest, most heartfelt thanks and letting you know that your subscriptions have been canceled immediately, so [00:34:00] you will not be charged again.
[00:34:02] And as for the rest of you that are listening right now, whether this is your first listen or you've been here all the way, uh, this has been just a total joy and a privilege. Getting any amount of someone's attention is an honor. You gave us a lot of yours. All the episodes are going to stay up indefinitely as long as the internet exists, , and we hope to see you in other places in the future.
[00:34:33] Mikel is going to keep doing what he's always done. He's someone who likes creating room for creative people to pursue their passion. I know he's really committed to using media to expand conversations around mental and physical health and how. As a society, we're kind of dropping the ball for ourselves and the next generation.
[00:34:57] I know he has some projects in the pipeline, of course, and if you have an idea, something that burns white hot in you, you should look him up. You can find his coordinates in the show notes as for me. Got a few messages going, I can't wait to hear what you're doing next. And this isn't, this isn't that I'm not stopping this to do, to take on another project.
[00:35:23] Um, I will, however, be doing exactly what I said I wanted to do, which is working on writing book number three and continuing to be part of the Luckiest Club. You can always find @lauramccowen.com and on my Instagram. Uh, Are also in the notes below. Massive, enormous thanks to Paul Chuffo, who has masterfully engineered every episode of this show to Tanya for doing much of the behind the scenes work, as well as Jeff Whittington, Brooke Mays and Jane for contributing along the way.
[00:36:05] Tell me something true has been a real moment in time for us and a whole hell, a lot of, a lot of. . These conversations aren't quick hits. We designed it that way. They ask a lot. They ask for a lot of introspection to try on new ways of considering the world and relationships and what we call personal growth.
[00:36:29] Mikel and I ourselves have had so many conversations where we have been impacted and sometimes even changed by what our guests have brought to the table. And you've been here for it. You have been a source of encouragement and motivation and. Insight, a lot of what we've done has, uh, been shaped by you when we wrap.
[00:36:56] This show will have over 600,000 downloads and will have been. Have touched by more than 240,000 people. That is astounding to me. So thank you. Thank you for Mikel. Thank you for me. Uh, we appreciate you. We hope to see you down the line. Thank you for being here.