Marissa Moss has a lot to say about powerful women, making their own rules, and finding solidarity when the world is pitting them against each other. It's bigger than country music, the world she covers brilliantly, AND it shapes Music Row and the lives of the artists who are trying to make it there.
HANDS UP if knowing what you want, and standing up for it, has not always been welcome.
Imagine being hit with that - and you’re America’s top-selling female group of all time!
Marissa Moss has a lot to say about powerful women, making their own rules, and finding solidarity when the world is pitting them against each other. This TMST is a conversation about how women are being true to themselves and reshaping culture, while building huge, diverse audiences.
In the book, “Her Country: How the Women of Country Music Became the Success They Never Were Supposed to Be,” Moss weaves together The Chicks, Shania and Loretta, and the new generation like Maren Morris, Kacey Musgraves and Mickey Guyton.
The stories she shares in our conversation are gripping, and gut churning. And…. she’s going to explain to us the veiled threat that still exists today - you don’t want to get Chicked, do ya?
Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/56-marissa-moss-on-not-getting-chicked
Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0hJwhPHQzuqT9OgiAnpAhQ
Here’s the transcript: https://tell-me-something-true.simplecast.com/episodes/marissa-moss-on-not-getting-chicked/transcript
Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Become a TMST member today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free.
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TMST is hosted by Laura McKowen, the bestselling author of We Are The Luckiest and founder of The Luckiest Club. Follow the show and Laura on Instagram.
TMST Marissa Moss final
[00:00:00] Let's go girls, come on.
[00:00:09] Laura McKowen: Hey, it's Laura. I bet you weren't expecting to hear that as this week's show open, there was a time when it was Shania and faith and the Dixie chicks ruled music. It was a moment when artists who started in country burst out and went mainstream. The Dixie chicks who are now just the chicks were foundational to Lilith fair.
[00:00:31] And you may not know this. They are still America's top selling female group of all time. And then things changed. And the root cause of that change wasn't about country music or country radio. It's about how our culture deals with strong women. Marisa MOS is our guest. And she has a lot to say about this in her new book, her country, how the [00:01:00] women of country music became the success.
[00:01:02] They were never supposed to be. MOS shows how knowing what you want and the courage to be true to yourself are not always welcome. In the book, Marisa looks at how the new generation of artists, Marin Morris, Casey Musgraves, and McGee Gein are breaking the rules and building these huge diverse audiences.
[00:01:25] The stories she shares in our conversation are gripping and honestly kind of gut churning and . And she explains to us the veiled threat behind this awful phrase, you don't wanna get checked. Do you. All right. So remember TMS D paid members are the engine behind this project. We've seen an unprecedented wave of signups lately.
[00:01:51] It's amazing. And it's helping us pay the cost of making the show and keeping it coming your way. You can find the show in the show notes, the link in the [00:02:00] show notes to join or head on over to TMS TPO dot. you can pay five or 10 or $20 a month. It makes such a massive difference. And with every episode we do a Spotify playlist just because it's fun and deepens the experience.
[00:02:17] And Marisa gave us a killer playlist for this one. So you're gonna wanna check it out. All right. Here's Marisa Moss.
[00:02:32] Hi, so happy to have you here. Excited to dive in.
[00:02:37] Marissa Moss: Hi, thank you for having me. This is exciting. So
[00:02:41] Laura McKowen: we're just going to, we're just gonna hop right in. We've got a lot to cover. Uh, your book is fascinating, extraordinarily well written eye-opening as someone who has. Grew up with country. Music is very much in my, my [00:03:00] bones
[00:03:01] Marissa Moss: and I, this was shocking
[00:03:04] Laura McKowen: to me.
[00:03:05] And then I realized this shouldn't have been shocking to me, so I wanna get into all of it. So you bring this
[00:03:12] Marissa Moss: really unusual role to the position
[00:03:16] Laura McKowen: you occupy in country music. It's like you're an insider outsider
[00:03:21] Marissa Moss: role.
[00:03:22] Laura McKowen: Uh, And you, you note throughout the book that country music industry is just extremely resistant to change that.
[00:03:30] There's just a lot of stereotyping of people who listen to country music and smugness among folks who don't. My boyfriend is one of them. I love the way you take on this. Like. I'll listen to anything but country music posture, you, it seems like you gen genuinely want people to see and decide for themselves whether they like country music and that we don't even really understand the breadth of country music.
[00:03:57] How did you, how did you arrive [00:04:00] at being this place of being like a true believer and an industry critic, and also this like cultural rebel who is urging both people inside and outside to look
[00:04:09] Marissa Moss: deeper. I mean, I think it's kind of country music has folks that, you know, sort of have that. I listen to anything but country music mindset, and then they have a couple people that they may be like and are okay with.
[00:04:27] But for the most part, they're really overtly critical of like everything about country music, stereotyping country people. And then there's sort of the flip side of that. You know, the people that. We associate with liking everything in mainstream country music, and maybe stereotype them as being only conservative or only one thing.
[00:04:47] And there's not a lot of blending of the two and I kind of fell in the middle and I realized that when I moved to Nashville, 10 years ago, I was working in music, journalism in New York and LA, but I was also [00:05:00] working in progressive. Political communications. So I came in with kind of this weird, unique perspective, I guess, um, and really loving country music.
[00:05:11] But once I landed in Nashville, I was like, I really love this kind of alt country Americana quote, unquote outlaw stuff. Mm-hmm um, and I also really like a lot of the stuff that's going on in the mainstream too. I liked being in both of the worlds. I liked all of that music. I think that, you know, we really don't with the exception of a few people give country music a chance to be considered as like high art.
[00:05:41] Yeah. Um, but at the same time, there's also a lot of. There's a lot. That's really messed up with country music in terms of music row, the business country radio. Um, so that all like exists at the same time, you know? Yeah. And it's, uh, it makes it [00:06:00] very easy to feel very in and out all at once, I guess. Yeah.
[00:06:05] But that's, it's that's
[00:06:07] Laura McKowen: I
[00:06:07] Marissa Moss: think what makes you so believable and, and.
[00:06:14] Laura McKowen: It is that you hold the complexity and you acknowledge it, right? There's no, there's no, there's no purity, you know, ideas in your head about, oh, this is the, like the, the industry itself is, has really bad parts to it and is broken
[00:06:30] Marissa Moss: and the music is still
[00:06:34] Laura McKowen: good.
[00:06:34] It's, it's a fascinating, like tension of so many, so many
[00:06:37] Marissa Moss: factors. Yeah. I definitely feel, I feel like I'm in that tension. Yeah, 24 7
[00:06:46] Laura McKowen: I want to dive into the book. Uh, so your book, your new book, which just came out last month is called her country. And I wanna get everyone on the same page by talking about two of the things you talk about in the [00:07:00] book, which are tomato gate and don't get checked.
[00:07:04] So these two stories show the specifics of what happened to women in country music, basically. And there are also stories that.
[00:07:13] Marissa Moss: Reflect
[00:07:14] Laura McKowen: the larger experience of women, I think in America. So walk us through what happened with tomato gate. What is it?
[00:07:22] Marissa Moss: Yeah. Um, so tomato gate happened in 2015 in country music.
[00:07:30] There's a lot of country music, radio or country radio trades, and it's actually kind of a big part of the culture, you know, a. You know, people read these that are in the business. And so there's a country music trade called country air check, and they ran an interview with a radio consultant. Um, another part of the, the whole country music web is these, you know, not unlike other industries, there's a small handful of powerful, [00:08:00] you know, white men that are hired as consultants for a lot of money that end up kind of dictating.
[00:08:05] the way the industry goes
[00:08:07] Laura McKowen: and their, their, their, their intent is to figure out is to help radio stations figure out how to be profitable. I mean, what's their bottom line,
[00:08:14] Marissa Moss: right? I mean, that's. that's what they would tell you, I guess and then, you know, , and I guess maybe that's, you know, sort of, there is a way to keep profitable at the status quo that works the best that they are, um, banking on.
[00:08:31] So there was one radio consultant named Keith Hill and he was interviewed in country air check and he said, The best way to make ratings and therefore make money and country radio is to treat men as the lettuce in the salad and women as tomatoes. So sprinkle them sparingly. There was a good amount of outrage after that came out.
[00:08:56] Uh, and rightly so, but the interesting [00:09:00] thing is that a lot of the outrage was sort of directed at him at the radio consultant and directed at. You know, kind of the contents of what he was saying, but the thing that saying it made me yeah. The thing that made me so mad in the moment and still kind of does is that everyone got sort of performatively outraged about this, but this is the way that business had been done in Nashville and still is done.
[00:09:25] He just said it out loud. You know, he said the quiet part out loud that's right. Um, yeah. And so in a weird way, like, I don't wanna say I'm thankful that he said it, but like. , it's almost like when you're doing an interview as a journalist and someone like gives you, like, you know, finally gives you that con confirmation that you need.
[00:09:44] Like, you find it in the, in the documents or whatever. And you're like, oh, okay. Here's my, yeah. You know, here's my backup. And, and that was kind of that moment. Like he said exactly that he said the quiet part out loud and everyone's like, oh, this [00:10:00] is so outrageous. And it's like, No, but that's how you're doing business yeah,
[00:10:04] Laura McKowen: just, he's just calling the, the, the water blue it's been blue, but he just actually happened to say it.
[00:10:10] Yeah.
[00:10:11] Marissa Moss: I mean, and of course he shouldn't be giving people that advice as a consultant, but, um, you know, the, the, the crazier thing was that this was exactly just, you know, he was calling out how, how things are. Okay,
[00:10:29] Laura McKowen: so that's tomato gate,
[00:10:30] Marissa Moss: that's tomato gate . And
[00:10:33] Laura McKowen: then the second is don't get checked, which is of course, referring to the Dixie chicks.
[00:10:39] So just some background for, for everybody here to lead into the question in, in London, in, in March, 2003, uh, Natalie mains who's the lead singer said the band were ashamed to be from the same state as
[00:10:52] Marissa Moss: Bush.
[00:10:53] Laura McKowen: George Bush and that they did not support the Iraq war. I remember this so [00:11:00] clearly like I was, this is, I was like 20, uh, at the time the Dixie chicks were one of the, the most popular country acts and the best selling female band of all time.
[00:11:11] I'm imagining Michael and I, when we were talking about this, this show, I, I imagine that there are. Oh, a good amount. Percentage of the listeners have been Dixie's chicks fans in their life. Even if they wouldn't say that they're country music fans. So after that incident, they were completely wiped off the map on country radio and the story that became the conventional wisdom after that was don't talk politics.
[00:11:37] Right?
[00:11:38] Marissa Moss: But you
[00:11:39] Laura McKowen: discovered that there had been signs that the gatekeepers were lining up against the Dick Dixie ticks? Well, before that incident. So take us back to that time and just refresh your memories on how big they actually were in the early two thousands. And what you discovered in your reporting about how the industry was viewing their [00:12:00] popularity and their,
[00:12:00] Marissa Moss: I.
[00:12:01] Yeah. And I'm, I'm so glad you asked about that because this is one of the things that just was kind of one of the biggest aha moments, I guess, from reporting this book. Yeah. And the chicks were, they were huge. They were not only the biggest band in country music. They were crossing over into pop, like crazy mm-hmm um, they were, you know, getting airplay on, on pop radio too.
[00:12:25] And rock radio. They had awesome music videos, you know, where they're murdering Earl and throwing him in the back of a truck. And. They were playing at Lilith there too. So they were reaching that audience too. That was also, you know, mostly just, um, that hadn't really engaged as much in the country music space.
[00:12:46] Um, and it was huge, you know, it was kind of Shania crossed over into pop, but the chicks were sort of poised to become. Not only crossover X, but also critically embraced too from [00:13:00] all angles. Yeah. Um, so there was so much going on cuz you know, and I, I love Shania, so I think that she should have always been critically embraced, but that's another story.
[00:13:09] They were just absolutely on top of the world. Um, and just incredible musicians, singer, songwriters, everything like who knows, you know, sky was the limit at the time. And I went to do some research for this book at the country, music hall of fame. They have a great archives there, you know, it was in kind of in like, uh, I think the museum was still even closed at the time, uh, for COVID and I pulled out, um, a bunch of magazines from.
[00:13:42] The, uh, you know, the archives actually the, um, someone at the museum, because it was, COVID had had to pull out all of the archives for me. So I, all I saw was boxes. I didn't see the date on them. Um, so I started just kind of looking through them and I kept coming [00:14:00] up. I opened one magazine and I saw a picture of Natalie.
[00:14:03] The lead singer of the chicks, um, in this cartoon with this giant OBN, you know, drawn to have a giant obnoxious mouth and like looking really CR you know, sort of made to look like crazy and obnoxious and outspoken. And, uh, and I started to take notes and I just sort of assumed cause I was taking, you know, I would write down what I see.
[00:14:23] I couldn't take them with me. I'd take a picture with my phone. I'd make a note about it. And I assumed it was after their comment. About the Warner rock because she was they've drawn to made look obnoxious. And I looked at the date and I realized it was before, it was like a year before. And I was like, well, that's so interesting.
[00:14:42] And I kept on seeing that pattern emerge that they were being painted. To be too outspoken and kind of too loud or too obnoxious, or, you know, powerful in the, you know, pejorative sense before [00:15:00] that comment. Um, and Natalie mains had had this sort of spat with. Toby Keith, another country singer who was sang a song about putting a boot in a terrorist ass.
[00:15:11] You know, if you don't remember that gem, um, and there was just like so much there, it, there was just this building sense of distrust and, um, kind of fear towards the chicks that I just kept finding. And, and I always sort of had that suspicion too, that. would this have happened if, you know, would, if they hadn't have said that, would it have been some something else?
[00:15:39] Um,
[00:15:40] Laura McKowen: if they hadn't have said the, the comment about the war, would it have been something else that
[00:15:45] Marissa Moss: yeah. Would they have found another way to sort of get the, you know, check the checks, take them down? Yeah. And I, I firmly, you know, it's a belief I don't have, you know, I can't, um, can't back it up. You know, [00:16:00] any evidence because it's a hypothetical, but I do believe that that would've happened, that we would've yep.
[00:16:06] Country music. Would've found another way to. to check the chicks, if it weren't for that. Cause there was just this building distressed and it seemed like they were just getting too powerful. What did it mean that they were both, you know, played on country radio so much and then going to Lilith fair, which is, you know, saying the word feminist out loud, wearing crop tops.
[00:16:28] Like what did that mean? You know, where could that go? That could be scary.
[00:16:38] You
[00:16:55] don't like the sound,[00:17:00]
[00:17:01] the truth coming.
[00:17:05] You see that lack of,
[00:17:13] Laura McKowen: so the fans and the people who make money off them directly, like the record labels stood by them when the country establishment didn't. As far as I understand. And in 2006, they took home the Grammy awards for like everything record of the year album of the year song of the year, best country album, best country performance by a duo our group with a vocal and still haven't still, haven't taken the note to shut up and sing mm-hmm so, so this takes us back to the warning.
[00:17:40] Don't get checked, which has become an actual thing that gets said it's presented as this cautionary tale. Country music, but it's really this transparent threat. Like, remember how, who has the power and we will crush you if you step out of
[00:17:55] line.
[00:17:56] Marissa Moss: Yeah. I mean, I think you nailed it and then saying that [00:18:00] it's this transparent threat that existed because once that happened and people are able to point to what happened to the chicks, as you know, as you said, that transparent threat, it was used.
[00:18:15] So broadly over the course of the next 20 years, up until now as a way to limit everything that a woman could do. You know? So like, I think you think of people telling artists, oh, don't say that out loud. You don't wanna get checked. You know, maybe they wanna support. A candidate or speak out about a political issue.
[00:18:39] And I've definitely heard it applied in that way. And that's, you know, sort of the way you might think of, but I've also heard about it and, you know, an artist wanting to speak out about experiencing racism at a show, you know, and, oh, you can't really talk about that cuz you might get checked. Well then no, that's not the same thing.
[00:18:57] You know, talking about. Your [00:19:00] political beliefs. I personally believe you should be able to speak them freely, but that's my point, you know, personal point of view still. It's not the same thing as saying, you know, I heard a racial slur directed towards me at a show, and I wanna, I wanna report that, you know, right.
[00:19:15] Speaking out about that, that, you know, horrific experience. Shouldn't you know, oh, don't talk about that. You don't wanna get checked, you know, that's not the same, so
[00:19:27] Laura McKowen: right. But it's meant for the same purpose it's meant. Yeah. It's just, just, just check
[00:19:31] Marissa Moss: everywhere.
[00:19:31] Laura McKowen: Check. Yeah. Stay here. Yeah. Don't violate, don't go outside of what, of the, of the bounds that you have been given.
[00:19:38] I'm sure there's some, you should be grateful in
[00:19:40] Marissa Moss: there. Oh gosh. Yeah. You have to be grateful all the time. Um, but yeah, and you know, I, you hear it apply. I, it became this thing that was. you know, applied to everything, you know? Oh, don't sing about, don't sing about that. You know, you don't wanna get checked like [00:20:00] yeah.
[00:20:00] And, uh, you know, I've even kind of at one point sort of couple years into my, my life here in Nashville, I had been interviewing a lot of women whose music that I really love, like new female artists. And I found that they were the most difficult interviews. Mm. And, um, to the point where a couple of them, I had a really hard time turning them into stories because they were just giving me talking points.
[00:20:30] And I was just like, why does this keep happening? And it suddenly dawned on me, you know, it's so obvious now to talk about women in country, music are so over coached and so drilled into, you have to say exactly. only what's okay to say, because you could get checked and I understand, you know, that must be horrifying, like to think about that as a new artist coming in you're you're making wonderful music.
[00:20:55] You wanna talk about it authentically and then your label being, you know, and [00:21:00] your publicist telling you, you have to be so, so, so careful with everything that you say and. That must be so stifling. Yeah. Paralyzing and miserable. And it made it very difficult for me as a journalist to cover them in a compelling way, because I couldn't get anything, you know, I couldn't get authentic answers out of them.
[00:21:19] Yeah. And so then it, like, it becomes this like very like disturbing cycle too is like where these artists then can't. they can't sort of establish themselves as, you know, three dimensional
[00:21:33] Laura McKowen: people.
[00:21:33] Marissa Moss: three dimensional people. Yeah. Um, it's already hard enough for women to try to do that in a way that is like, you know, pleasing enough to, to the men around them.
[00:21:46] And I mean, once I've realized that, I mean, so obviously, you know, it was so kind of right in front of my nose, you know, of course this is why they're so careful about what. They're saying that's very risky.[00:22:00]
[00:22:09] Mikel Ellcessor: Hi, I'm Michael I'm the executive producer of tell me something true. And I co-created the show with Laura. You know, we have one goal here, put something into the world that helps all of us figure out how we can have a better week. And we think that the best way to do that is to keep the pod ad free so that all of the work goes toward making something that's useful for you instead of hustling to keep advertisers happy.
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[00:23:43] Laura McKowen: All right, so let's shift to the book. So with the Dixie chicks now and tomato gate, we're painting this certain picture. I wanna turn to the three women that you. That you they're the central sort of theme story in the book, in your book, her country, Marin Morris, [00:24:00] Mickey Guiden, and Casey mu Musgraves. So tell me why these three became the through line characters that you wanted to focus on.
[00:24:09] Marissa Moss: Yeah, I mean, for a couple of reasons, I really wanted to tell like a very, um, a very modern present here and now happening in real time story that could also, you know, would work really well as like a historical snapshot. When, you know, hopefully knock on wood, someone picks this up, you know, 40, 40 years from now.
[00:24:33] And it needed to be women. One. I had to really like their music, because if I'm gonna spend a lot of time writing about them, I have to really like their music and admire what they do. Um, but that aside they needed to be in the mainstream country space to kind of talk about the issues that I wanted to.
[00:24:51] So as much as I'd love, you know, Lunda Williams and, and Margo price and, and artists like that. [00:25:00] It couldn't be those stories as the main focus because they're, you know, they're doing things in their own way. So outside of, of country radio. So it had to be artists that were kind of, at least from out of the gate, wanted to be in the mainstream country space on mainstream country labels, that kind of thing.
[00:25:19] Yeah. Um, and they're all free. All three from Texas. So mm-hmm, , uh, I've spent some time in Texas. My dad lived there for a while, so I have a connection and kind of a real. Reverence and love for Texas. It's, it's a really special place and like country music, I think it's very misunderstood and stereotyped.
[00:25:41] Yep. Um, and I really like those parallels too. And there are things that really interest me to talk about. Um, and, you know, Casey Marin and Mickey, they're all from, you know, probably within two hours of each other. And there's a lot of other incredible country music, women from Texas that I [00:26:00] wanted to talk about too.
[00:26:00] Namely the chicks and Miranda Lambert and Leanne rhymes who are kind of like. , you know, the sort of like the, for this book's purposes a little bit more of like the legendary north star kind of status. Right. And, you know, Beyonces from Texas too. So yes. and Liso so something, oh really? I didn't know. Lizzo was clearly something in the water in Texas.
[00:26:22] Yeah. So, yeah, but then they all, you know, had very, they're extremely unique artists and had different trajectories. Um, so it made kind of. A, a clean story to say, okay, they all came from the same place and what's their journey.
[00:26:39] Laura McKowen: You, you recently interviewed Leon rhymes in the, at the Grammy museum and that, and you observed that men in country music gained success for being similar.
[00:26:48] Mm. While women in the genre have to be extraordinary and you touch a lot on this really fascinating. Concept of authenticity, quote, unquote [00:27:00] authenticity in country music that I thought was so brilliant. All three of these, that the three artists that we just talked about, the three female artists have shown themselves to be beyond extraordinary.
[00:27:10] Um, you help us understand how that hasn't been enough to cut through with the country music industry though. And, and while they've at the same time, been totally embraced by the wider public. So for all the ways. Country music and Nashville, the Nashville establishment says they want to reach everyone.
[00:27:29] They also do a lot of policing of who's in who's out and who gets accepted. Right? So the price of admission is not evenly charged and the criteria are clearly not, you know, consistently applied. This is another one of those ways that country music
[00:27:46] Marissa Moss: and what women
[00:27:48] Laura McKowen: face out in the broader world. Aren't just, aren't D.
[00:27:51] Marissa Moss: Absolutely. I mean, women in country, music and women period exist [00:28:00] in this, you know, the existence is, there is only one spot we are told. There is only one or maybe two spots in whatever industry that we are in, wherever it is. There's, you know, limited spots for women. Okay. We know that. So that makes us therefore.
[00:28:20] Competitors with other. Not by our own choosing, but by the environment that we exist in where there's only one spot men don't think, you know, men there's enough spot. There, there will always be enough spots for white dudes everywhere. They will be fine. Um, but women have to fight for this one. You know, one spot, but then at the same time, we're told that we have to be this, um, cohesive sisterhood, helping each other up all the time.
[00:28:48] Um, you know, sisterhood of the traveling pants, like help each other. This is how we're gonna do it. And. I mean, it is amazing, like when [00:29:00] women can lift each other up and help each other out is a beautiful, wonderful thing. And it happens all the time, but it is extremely crushing to be told that at the same time, as we're all fighting for the same space.
[00:29:16] So, and then it defaults back on us only. So it's created that there's this one space and. We all have to fight for it, but we, women are responsible for lifting each other up to somehow get out of that and help, you know, how do you both fight, fight with your, your friend for the same spot and lift them up to get to the spot at the same time, that's like really impossible to exist in, you know, in country music or anywhere.
[00:29:45] Laura McKowen: Yeah. And I think to bring it into just an, an everyday. The
[00:29:51] Marissa Moss: everyday
[00:29:52] Laura McKowen: existence of, of women. I think that's, it's helpful context to understand the concept of jealousy mm-hmm [00:30:00]
[00:30:00] Marissa Moss: and how corrosive
[00:30:03] Laura McKowen: it, how natural it would be to it is to feel jealousy. Yeah, because of the, the sort of way that we are, that, that we're meant to.
[00:30:17] Marissa Moss: Feel not just feel,
[00:30:18] Laura McKowen: but that we are competing for the same pie. mm-hmm yet how
[00:30:23] Marissa Moss: gross we feel about that? Yeah, that, I mean, that's something that I really wish we talked about more. I could it's so like thorny, I guess, to, to talk about publicly and, and I didn't really particularly care to write about like the interpersonal dynamics, I guess.
[00:30:42] Cause I felt like. I don't know it, I was sort of playing into this narrative of the, that, you know, women have to be, I guess, sort of like selling their conflict as, you know, something exciting for gossip or whatever when it, like, it is [00:31:00] kind of just like a very natural thing. Like if you are two female artists that exists in this country music space, and maybe you're both from Texas and.
[00:31:13] Something as silly as you both have brown hair or like, like to smoke weed or something like you are going to be constantly compared and contrasted contrast against each other and, and you might do it. You're gonna do it too as a person. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you may feel jealous and like that is, you know, that is how the plot is written for you to exist.
[00:31:36] You know, like to, to have to say like, You know, Casey Musgrave says this song called high horse and, and me about, you know, um, this sort of deals with that. And, and, and Marin has a song, the title track of her second album called girl. That's sort of about talking to herself about, you know, these things, like why are we competing?
[00:31:57] But like, [00:32:00] and sort of, I think giving herself. You know, permission to feel those things, drawing your comparisons,
[00:32:19] trying to find's than
[00:32:24] put up with this anymore. Pick yourself up on the kitchen floor. Tell me what you waiting for. You know, like a, to constantly pretend like that every woman is like, you know, we're all in this together and, and there's always
[00:32:44] Laura McKowen: enough seats at the table
[00:32:46] Marissa Moss: and yeah, there's not. Yeah. But then when you dare say anything, you're a catty bitch.
[00:32:50] So that that's the,
[00:32:51] Laura McKowen: that's the, that's the rub because men compete mm-hmm completely, I mean, very much so, but, but their statement of [00:33:00] competition, their, their. Outward expression of competition is not seen as a negative it's it's cheered. Right? Right. It's like, that's what makes sports so fucking great. and, and all, and all those things.
[00:33:14] And so it's, I've been thinking, the reason I bring this up is I bring, I I've been thinking about jealousy a lot as someone, you know, I'm, I'm a writer and I find myself, so. Paralyzed and, and then beating the crap outta myself for jealousy. And, and it is one of those things that we don't talk about. It's just like, Ugh, we it's too gross.
[00:33:34] Right? Yeah. It's too gross for us to talk about out
[00:33:36] Marissa Moss: loud. I definitely talk about sort of that whole dichoto of like there only being one spot and, and how we're supposed to be, how women are supposed to also lift each other up and amongst all that. But. I mean, there's a lot of good country songs to be written about jealousy.
[00:33:56] Maybe someone, maybe that's how we can start [00:34:00] hashing it all out is just some like good country songs about, you know, comparing yourself constantly to other women. And how saying it out loud is like not some kind of character flaw.
[00:34:13] Laura McKowen: Right. Well, think about Jolene, which I think is,
[00:34:15] Marissa Moss: oh yeah, that's a song about jealousy, but yeah, even Jolene is, you know, interesting in that.
[00:34:22] She's very polite about, yes. Saying please,
[00:34:25] Laura McKowen: don't, she's very polite, please. Don't very polite.
[00:34:28] Marissa Moss: Do my husband, um, you know, please don't take him just because you can. That's so true.
[00:34:36] Laura McKowen: So let's talk
[00:34:37] Marissa Moss: about,
[00:34:38] Laura McKowen: continue on this
[00:34:44] thread, how these women see themselves in the larger continuum and, and how the, the three that I'm talking. Or that you talked about in the book, how they're brace embracing like a lot of complexity, the, this connection between Loretta Lynn, uh, and Casey buzz graves. You highlight, can you just talk about that to get everyone on the same page [00:35:00] before I go any
[00:35:00] Marissa Moss: further?
[00:35:01] You know, I I'm fascinated with Loretta Lynn. She. It was just breaking so many boundaries in her time and, you know, had a song about the birth control pill mm-hmm and at the same time of, you know, she has a more children. I think that you can count on one hand and now is known as being a Trump supporter.
[00:35:27] I think it goes to say a lot about how we stereotype, um, stereotype country people or country artists, even in that people's viewpoints can be very complex and nuance. Loretta was pro-birth control is, you know, I haven't asked her lately, but assuming she hasn't changed her point of view. Right. Was, you know, pro birth control pro abortion.
[00:35:52] She has aligned her memoir when she's like this wouldn't, it wouldn't be my choice given my personal faith. But, um, I [00:36:00] think, you know, the thing she says, I don't wanna miso her, but like, you know, poor, poor girls in the holler and Appalachia, like should be able to. Have abortions. Yeah. Instead of
[00:36:09] Laura McKowen: being faced.
[00:36:10] And she think she, it was like, instead of some doctor or man deciding that they, they have to raise a child
[00:36:17] Marissa Moss: when they're not ready to. I mean, and that's nuance and that's all, you know, That's all anyone can ask for, is that to say, you know, pure freedom of, of religious practice, but not applying it to women's right.
[00:36:31] To healthcare. I mean, yeah. And, uh, and I think Casey really looked to. Loretta, not just for her freedom in terms of her lyrical subject matter and how she pushed boundaries, but also, you know, as a Texan and, you know, sort of reserving the right to have very free and evolving political views. [00:37:00] there're women in this book who, you know, I, again, haven't asked them their current views, but you know, who are, you know, maybe gun owners or support mm-hmm , um, you know, like to hunt or, and, and enjoy that part of Texan culture or, you know, sort of quote, red state culture or whatever you wanna say.
[00:37:21] Yeah. Yeah. But then might, you know, Also at the same time, support gun control measures, or be a, a person of faith, but also support a woman's right to choose. And it, it, there's this kind of, and I think that appealed to Casey and I imagine appealed to the women in this book as a whole, that sort of freedom to define your beliefs and identity, not according to one doctrine, but according to your own.
[00:37:54] You know, your own moral compass, your own, your, your own [00:38:00] sense of self and all those things. And, and Loretta is kind of one of the symbols of that symbols of that. That's right. And, um, yeah. And yeah, she had more
[00:38:10] Laura McKowen: songs band, I think, than, than any other artist in country music history.
[00:38:15] Marissa Moss: Yeah. It's wild. She's got, whenever I go back and think about Loretta and think about the pill and rated X.
[00:38:24] you know, it just it's wild what she did and there'll be more books written on Loretta and there already have books been written on Loretta, but there's even still a lot to say about the line that she towed constantly. Well, what's so
[00:38:39] Laura McKowen: interesting and fascinating and helpful and important to me about someone like Loretta or Casey Musgraves is they do have the background that we do that they do.
[00:38:51] They do. Have the complexity that they
[00:38:55] Marissa Moss: do yet,
[00:38:58] Laura McKowen: they're being painted [00:39:00] out of an industry. I think Casey Musgraves is a great example cuz she sells out stadiums. Right. But like doesn't get air time on
[00:39:10] Marissa Moss: country radio, which is a unique,
[00:39:14] Laura McKowen: you could touch on like how influential radio is on country music versus.
[00:39:18] Maybe other genres of music. I was surprised at how influential it is, but they're, they're teaching us how to hold complexity in a time,
[00:39:31] Marissa Moss: especially now where it's just not tolerated yeah.
[00:39:36] Laura McKowen: For anybody. And they get, you know, the highlight that the, the, the sort of headline is, oh, you know, Casey Musgrave. Is standing up for pride or whatever.
[00:39:50] And so she gets painted into this unidimensional by some people would get painted into this unidimensional picture. And the fact that they're daring to be complex [00:40:00] is so radical
[00:40:02] Marissa Moss: yeah. In this industry. Yeah. And I think for that exact reason that like, if you want to take a microscope to culture in this very current moment, One of the best places to look is country music.
[00:40:19] Mm-hmm um, because so many of those, you know, exact same issues that we see. On a daily basis in America, in terms of cultural polarization, you know, everything being black and white. If you save yourself, marriage you're, you don't save
[00:40:46] yourself. Marriage you're person. If. You won't have a drink then you're, but they'll call you drunk as soon you weight you,[00:41:00]
[00:41:01] if you, then you
[00:41:06] damn. If you do and damn, if you don't so as well, just do whatever you want. So. Lots
[00:41:34] of kiss. Lots of, lots of girls,
[00:41:45] you know? He write, who I talk about in the book too, was, um, you know, a very successful. Was very successful on country radio in the early two thousands. Um, she's still an incredible artist and, um, but she came out as, as a lesbian. [00:42:00] And at the same time, I talked to her for this book and she found it very important to still talk about her faith mm-hmm um, so those things weren't considered as opposing parts of existence that you could right.
[00:42:13] Be a queer person and, and love God. Just as much as you know, that they had nothing to do with each other. Um, yeah. And she talked about, she talks a lot about her dedication to the troops too, because those are things that we like put in in those buckets, you know, like it yep. And that, oh, if you, if you're queer, you're, you know, you're not gonna be in the same bucket as the pro you know, the, the military, uh pro-military and pro.
[00:42:39] you know, and the person of faith and like shells, all of those things and all these women are, you know, pulling from all kinds of different buckets all the time.
[00:42:48] Laura McKowen: Let's just talk about Casey Musgraves since we're on that. How, how can you paint a picture for people about like her story and, and how she's embracing this complexity and how it's working out for her and your sort of theories on, [00:43:00] on why it's working?
[00:43:02] Marissa Moss: Yeah, the way it is, um, So Casey, and this is where I kind of opened the book with, you know, she started out from a small town in Texas. She started out singing really, really young. And she was actually in a, a yodeling duo called the Texas Tobits when she was, uh, you know, 10 and 11 and her first big gig was singing at the George W.
[00:43:24] Bush inauguration. I mean and, uh, and I thought that was such kind of a great. Sort of like way to set the stage for what, what you can have in access as a country artist in America. And when she came to Nashville, she just kind of wrote what she wanted to, she wrote with, um, two of like the very few openly queer songwriters, Shane McInally, Brandy Clark.
[00:43:56] Um, and. She [00:44:00] not only that she wrote very truthful songs about small town America, that weren't super, you know, they weren't like, oh, I love the tailgate on a Friday night, they were like, oh, this is like, not always great. You know, like this is difficult and hard and, and it's not always a perfect, pretty picture of, you know, uh, hanging out by the, by the tailgate or whatever.
[00:44:22] It's, uh, It can be kind of soul crushing and, and limiting. And, uh, that was her first song Merry go round that she came out with mm-hmm , which is, you know, as a, as a debut artist to come out with this kind of cutting. Ballot about, you know, small town life and not the most, I guess flattering light is, is, you know, so brave and, and she could do it because she is, she grew up in that.
[00:44:48] If you ain't got two kids by 21, you're probably gone to die. Long least. That's what tradition told. And[00:45:00]
[00:45:04] you,
[00:45:17] same trailer, different park. Mama hooked on Mary brothers hooked Mary Jane. Daddy's hooked
[00:45:40] on this town, all this broken Merry go round, round round. We go. And it ain't slowing down it. Mary go.
[00:45:59] Laura McKowen: [00:46:00] I'm gonna read this quote from Loretta that Casey Musgrave said about Loretta Lynn. When Loretta is touted on music row, these days, the sequence side of her history tends to overshadow the fact that she's probably had more songs band than any other artist in country music.
[00:46:17] This is proof that when anyone in the music business label heads. Radio promotion teams, artists, managers, media, songwriters, choose to stay within known successful lanes, avoiding creative risk and watering down content for easy consumption in hopes of financial gain. They're not only damaging themselves, but they're dam definitely damaging the rest of us
[00:46:40] Marissa Moss: too.
[00:46:42] So when I
[00:46:43] Laura McKowen: read that, I hear, I hear Casey Musgraves, challenging everyone, like even herself, probably to be to. It's so cliche, but just stay true to yourself even when it might hurt you financially. And that's sort of as far away from shut up and [00:47:00] sing as you can get. So can you talk about the way that Casey and others are, are embracing this complexity that we all contain these multitudes and how much that goes against the stereotype of.
[00:47:16] Country music and
[00:47:17] Marissa Moss: Southern people. Yeah. I mean, I remember when I first sat down with Casey for an interview, I think it was in 2012. Uh, we went to an Ethiopian restaurant here in Nashville. had a great meal. Um, and she said to me, even back then, she was like, I would rather have a couple hundred thousand fans at most by being myself than.
[00:47:40] You know, a million fans and, you know, by doing that, she ended up getting millions of fans. So it, it worked out and it goes to show that, you know, you might get some short term gain by being someone other than yourself. That's maybe more marketable, but you're not going to keep people with you for the long run.
[00:47:59] Right. [00:48:00] You know? I think Casey and Maron and Mickey and Shelly Wright. And, and so many of the women that I write about in this book, you know, they're from Texas. A lot of them are from the south and, and they do, they contain multitudes. They are not the stereotypes that we so often assume a country singer, a singer Southern person would be.
[00:48:24] But that doesn't mean that there's some sort of. Coastal liberal fantasy of what they should be either. Right. And I mean, I say that as someone from New York, a, a liberal Jew from New York. Yeah. But, uh, you know, they are very complex and, and they're leaning into that, you know, and you can be any woman, any Southern person, any person from anywhere can and should be able to lean into different parts of identity without having to think.
[00:48:54] If they go together, you know, you can be a person of faith and you can, you [00:49:00] know, uh, embrace the queer community. You can be queer, you can be, uh, you know, a social conservative and then have some, you know, very liberal views about other things. Like there's all. And, and that's, you know, Often wear country music and country people and Southern people fall in is on that spectrum, you know?
[00:49:23] And
[00:49:23] Laura McKowen: that is that complexity spectrum. Yeah. That
[00:49:26] Marissa Moss: complexity spectrum. And, and we lose so much in dismissing Southern people, uh, by assuming they don't, or can't exist on the spectrum. And we lose so much in country music by doing the same too. Yeah. By assuming it's either, you know, all the way to one side or all the way.
[00:49:44] Another side, you know, I think it both extremes can be really, you know, dangerous and dismissive. Yeah.
[00:49:55] Laura McKowen: Like we see a lot with a lot of women. The, the label feminism [00:50:00] as a
[00:50:01] Marissa Moss: label, a set of principles
[00:50:03] Laura McKowen: is also complex for these artists. So there's this tension between the word itself and this desire to.
[00:50:16] I
[00:50:17] Laura McKowen: guess achieve parody or autonomy
[00:50:18] with
[00:50:19] Marissa Moss: men mm-hmm
[00:50:21] Laura McKowen: and they're doing it inside a broadly Southern culture that as a set, you said in the book, the south never viewed women as full humans. Mm-hmm .
[00:50:33] Marissa Moss: So how, how
[00:50:35] Laura McKowen: do you think they wrestle with this label and
[00:50:39] Marissa Moss: the principles? Yeah, I mean, I think Dolly Parton kind of very famously has always rejected the, you know, being labeled a feminist, um, and people get really caught up in sort of dissecting that and focusing on it.
[00:50:55] Um, but I mean, surely if you look at her actions, They, you [00:51:00] know, her actions are feminist actions. Um, she's just very reluctant to use the word. And I think again, because it, it splits in her view, you know, and I don't wanna speak for her, but I'm assuming she might see it as dividing people, you know, breaking up people who try to look at that spectrum.
[00:51:19] And I mean, if you, if you look at someone like Dolly, she does fall into someone who is, is so many things on that spectrum. Southern identity of a country person's identity. She puts out, you know, gospel albums, and she is also out there, you know, being loud and proud for pride month. Like she is a complex person, a complex Southern person.
[00:51:44] And, but yeah, she's been, you know, I don't get too caught up on like Dolly. Whether or not, she wants to call herself feminist. Um, yeah, but a lot of people get really torn up about that. I don't know if it's gonna change anything if she suddenly decides to say yes, I actually [00:52:00] am a, like, who cares? You know, it's just, who cares.
[00:52:02] She's making tons of money for like, you know, the COVID vaccine and children's literacy, like whatever. Um, but I did think it was so interesting. In Maron Morris's video for girl off her second album. She wore a shirt that said feminist on the front mm-hmm mm-hmm and you know, she's a, she's super smart.
[00:52:22] So I think she, she fully understand that she was just not wearing that to make only a statement about her own feminist beliefs, but kind of, you know, speaking to that country, country's reluctance to own that word at any point. You've
[00:52:40] Laura McKowen: said that you don't wanna be pessimistic about country music, but you at the same time, acknowledge that things can't change and change until privilege and persistent harms are acknowledged.
[00:52:51] So that's a, another complicated, nuanced stance.
[00:52:56] Marissa Moss: How do you. how
[00:52:59] Laura McKowen: [00:53:00] do you keep that complexity alive and maintain a nuanced view? Is, is it that you love these artists so much and you love the music so much that pulls you through? Like,
[00:53:13] Marissa Moss: what do you think it is? Yeah. I mean, I get a, a lot of times, I mean, think going back to that same spectrum, people assume that I'm all the way to one side on that spectrum, you know, like.
[00:53:26] if I speak out about things that are unjust or inequities or, you know, histories of harm, people will be like, and I hear this a lot. Like you just hate country music. Why do you, no, you hate it. You, you know, like you, you must hate it. If you hate it, you, same thing. If you hate America so much, why didn't you just leave?
[00:53:45] You know, like if you hate country music, just leave. It's like, why on earth would I put in so much time? Two years of writing this book in my life, 10 years in Nashville, reporting on country music. Like I love it. [00:54:00] I love it so much that I want to put in the time to see it be better. Like, I don't give a shit about things that I don't give a shit about, you know, why, you know?
[00:54:10] Right. Like it's just kind of as simple as that and yeah. Marin Morris to bring it back to her as a, you know, she wrote a song, um, during the BLM protest and quarantine called better than we found it. And that's the whole idea, you know, like, Leave this world better than we found it. Um, yeah, because you care about it.
[00:54:30] Yeah. And, uh, you know, I care about country music and I care about this country. That's why it's called her country. It's yeah. It's her country music, but it's, it's her country. It's our country. What do you hope that people get from this book? Um, A couple things. I think, I mean, I hope that people, if they come into it with, [00:55:00] you know, not such a deep understanding or love of country music, that they would leave with a new appreciation of it, of country music and of.
[00:55:10] Country people or red state people, um, you know, reconsider some of those assumptions and discover new music, um, or if they come into it as a country fan, um, who's maybe felt a little bit left out along the way that they would feel welcomed. Yeah. Back into the genre. Um, I love that. That would definitely make me happy that if you felt like, you know, you saw what happened to the chicks or you don't hear any women on radio or you don't see any people that look like you and you kind of gave up on that genre that it would welcome you back in, you know, reignite that love.
[00:55:49] Well, it's
[00:55:49] Laura McKowen: been wonderful talking to you. I loved the book. I, it brought me back around to why I love country music so much, honestly. And. [00:56:00] so from one reader, you know, that's what it did for me. And, and so much respect for these women. Like
[00:56:07] Marissa Moss: just tons of respect for them.
[00:56:10] Laura McKowen: And I, didn't not respect them to begin with, but I truly just didn't know what, what was going on there.
[00:56:17] So thank you for coming on for talking everyone, go out. If you have any interest at all, go grab her country. Beautiful cover who's on the cover
[00:56:27] Marissa Moss: by the way. That's Casey. I like that. It's a little bit like it doesn't hit you instantly. I actually that's her. Yeah. Yeah. I, I actually picked, I picked the photographer and I didn't care who the picture was of.
[00:56:42] It's a photographer, her name's Catherine Powell. And she a woman here in Nashville who shoots a lot of these women. And I said, you know, I just want her for the cover. I don't care if the person's recognizable. I don't care who it. I just want one of her images and that's what ended up [00:57:00] getting on the cover.
[00:57:01] Awesome. Love that.
[00:57:03] Laura McKowen: All right. Thank you so much.
[00:57:05] Marissa Moss: Thank you for having me. I love, uh, I love your work in the show, so it's an honor.
[00:57:13] Laura McKowen: Thank you for being with us today. If you want more TMS T head on over to TMS T pod.com and become a member members, get access to the full uncut versions of these conversations. Opportunities to submit questions for AMAs and invites to join me. Four members only events
[00:57:35] Marissa Moss: daddy sits on the front porch.
[00:57:37] Swinging, looking out on field, used to
[00:57:47] brother. Sisters and nurse at the young folks home, mom's still cooking too much for suffering me. I've been a long, time's been a long time. [00:58:00] No ain't. And
[00:58:09] Laura McKowen: we decided from the beginning to make this an independent project, we don't have sponsors and we don't run. This means we can make the show all about you and not what our sponsors our advertisers want, but it also means we're a hundred percent reliant on you for support. So my requests and my invitation is simple.
[00:58:30] Support the show by becoming a member, you can do this for as little as $5 a month. I cannot stress this enough. You could make a huge difference for as little as $5. Please head on over to TMS T pod.com. Right. Tell me something true is engineered and mixed by Paul CHIO, Michael El assessor. And I dreamed up this show and we're looking forward to joining you online and next [00:59:00] time on tell me something true.