Mary Laura Philpott brings her captivating wit and sharp insight to a discussion of her latest book, “Bomb Shelter: Love, Time, and Other Explosives."
People tell Mary Laura Philpott that her writing is like having a conversation with her.
We can say that is 100% true. She’s an utterly captivating writer AND conversationalist.
You may have first heard about Mary Laura Philpott through her first book, “I Miss You When I Blink.” Her new memoir in essays is “Bomb Shelter: Love, Time, and Other Explosives.” It was named an Editor’s Choice by the New York Times Book Review and one of the Best Books of 2022 by NPR.
“Bomb Shelter” had Laura laughing and crying and nodding her head as another woman (and mother) who is solidly in mid-life.
There are almost no places left where contemporary authors can sit down and discuss their work. It’s really important to me, and everyone, at TMST that we hold this space. If you care about these kinds of conversations, we hope you’ll become a TMST Plus member.
Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/58-mary-laura-philpott-on-the-joy-and-dread-of-being-human
Spotify playlist for this episode:
Here’s the transcript: https://tell-me-something-true.simplecast.com/episodes/mary-laura-philpott-on-the-joy-dread-of-being-human/transcript
Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Become a TMST member today so you can hear the uncut interviews, attend private events with Laura and help keep TMST ad-free.
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TMST is hosted by Laura McKowen, the bestselling author of We Are The Luckiest and founder of The Luckiest Club. Follow the show and Laura on Instagram.
TMST Mary Laura Philpott final
[00:00:00]Laura McKowen: Hey, Hey, it's Laura. Welcome to tell me something true. So people tell today's guest to Mary Laura Philpot, that her writing is like having a conversation with her and. Being a huge fan of her work before we talked. I can now say that that's totally true. She is as satisfying to read as she is to talk to so much so that when we were recording this episode, I forgot we were taping, which is one of my favorite things about doing this work.
[00:00:34] When it happens, you may have heard about Mary Laura. It is Bold's names through her first book. I miss you. When I blink, it was a huge hit, a bestseller that was also a finalist for the Southern book prize and her new memoir and essays is called bomb. Shelter, love time, and other explosives amazing title.
[00:00:58] It was named an editor's [00:01:00] choice by the New York times book review, and one of the best books of 2022 by NPR. It had me laughing and crying and nodding my head like a fool as another woman and a mother who is also solidly in midlife. There are almost. No places anymore where contemporary authors can sit down and discuss their work.
[00:01:22] And it's really important to me and everyone here at TMS T that we hold that space. If you care about these conversations, I hope you'll become a TMS D plus member. Our paid members are the engine behind this project. The membership helps us pay for the cost of making the show and keeping an ad free and keeping it coming your.
[00:01:42] You can find the link in the show notes to become a member or just head on over to TMS T pod.com five, 10 or 20 bucks a month makes a huge difference. And with every episode we post a Spotify playlist because it's fun. So check [00:02:00] those out. All right. Here is Mary Laura Philpott.
[00:02:04]Mary Laura Philpott:
[00:02:14] I'm so happy to have you. I'm delighted to be doing this. This is fun. This is like, I mean, you, you and I were just talking about book tour and how it's so strange, and it feels like being, living in a little space pod, traveling through the universe all alone. Um, that part of book tour is over for me. And now I'm back home and I'm doing this more, much more humanely paced.
[00:02:36] Yeah. Small amounts of travel and small amounts of, you know, an interview here and there from my own home. So this feels like pure luxury to be sitting in my house, talking to you, just like having this friendly conversation with no rush. This is delightful. I have your book right.
[00:02:54]Laura McKowen: I loved it so much. So this was my, you know, entree to your writing.
[00:02:58] And it's just, it met me exactly where I am in my life. I was curious though, I have an idea of what might have happened, but how did this collection come to be? Like, what was the. The seed.
[00:03:15]Mary Laura Philpott: Yeah, it came about, it was brewing at a time when I was insistent that I was not going to do another essay collection.
[00:03:25] I had just come back from touring for, I miss you when I blank, which is. An essay collection. I mean, that's what it is. It's thematically linked there. They have a, a, you know, sort of an umbrella narrative over all those essays, but that's an essay collection. I came home and I was like, I'm not doing that again.
[00:03:40] That was fun. I wanna do something different. And for a period of several months, I sort of. Sat here staring out the window going well, I guess I've had my last good idea. It's all over. It was a good run. you know, I got a book out of it. I guess I gotta go find a new craft or trade that I can do [00:04:00] now. Um, but as I do always and always have in my life, I was writing through some things I.
[00:04:07] Going through and also, still trying to make a living. You know, I can, I can get paid by selling a single essay here and there. So I was writing about some things that I'd been feeling for a while about. What does it mean to be middle aged? Like what does it mean to be at this tipping point in your life?
[00:04:24] Where a lot of stuff that was stable has begun to destabilize, and you're about to go down kind of a twisty part of life's roller coaster, and you don't know what's coming. What does it, what does it mean to live with suddenly more uncertainty than you've had before for so many reasons big and. So I was writing about that stuff.
[00:04:41] I was also going through, uh, kind of a reckoning with a lot of the stuff that comes with, um, any, any turning point or breaking point or starting over point in life. So for example, at middle age, um, my parents were getting older and the roles were reversing there, which felt really strange. And that [00:05:00] was on my mind a lot.
[00:05:03] my work was on my mind. My kids were on my mind because they weren't really kids anymore. They had turned into these teenagers with whole lives and futures and plans, and they were touring colleges. And I was really reckoning on a, on a regular basis with the, the fact that they are leaving. Like they, the, the leaving process.
[00:05:20] Is now beginning, like the countdown has started. So I was beginning to write about a lot of that stuff. And I think I probably would have ended up writing despite my insistence, that I was not writing an essay collection. I probably would've written an essay collection about turning points in life, where the momentums go in one way and then woo.
[00:05:41] You take a turn and it's going a different way. And everything feels uncertain and unstable, but then something happened. That that. Basically was a before and after moment in my life where nothing was ever the same. I couldn't think about anything the same way anymore. And it turned this from what would've been a [00:06:00] linked essay collection into more of a memoir and, and gave it more of a narrative thread.
[00:06:03] And that is, um, a health crisis in my family, my teenage son, the older of my two teenagers, um, woke up early one morning and got outta bed to go get a glass of water. Within a few steps. He just fell and hit the floor completely unconscious. And my husband and I woke up, it was like four o'clock in the morning to this sound.
[00:06:23] It was the sound of his body hitting the floor again and again and again, he was having a seizure and, um, You know, we had this one really long, really bizarre day that began with that. And, and standing over his body going, what is happening? He's unconscious, I've gotta call 9 1 1 right in the ambulance, go to the hospital.
[00:06:42] By the end of that really long day, we knew he had epilepsy and he has a, a particular kind of epilepsy that comes on in adolescence and never goes away. So he has something that will be with. that will change his life. And in some ways threaten his life mm-hmm forever. And this [00:07:00] is the kid who made me a mom.
[00:07:02] Yeah. So my whole worldview changed the everything I was thinking about about whoa. Things get unstable. There's a lot of uncertainty just kicked into like 10 times higher gear. So what would've been probably a, an essay collection with a lot of the same themes it currently has became. But also a memoir about this, me character, this mom character facing the, the worst threat.
[00:07:29] She could imagine something coming for the life of her child. Yeah.
[00:07:34]Laura McKowen: I figured it was about the, the incident with your son. When I read the end of the one might wonder essay it's about, yeah. About your son and having epilepsy, your daughter, having asthma and other conditions, health conditions in your family.
[00:07:49] And you, you, um, say at the end of the essay, everyone has something you don't get to choose. What your thing is, whether you get just one thing or more, or how [00:08:00] your thing will respond to your efforts to manage it. the reason I jumped outta my bed is I have in my book a whole chapter, well, it's a chapter called this is your thing.
[00:08:12] Yes. And it was about me reconciling with the fact that alcohol was my thing. Like, I didn't choose it. I can't make it go away. And yeah.
[00:08:24]Mary Laura Philpott: And,
[00:08:24]Laura McKowen: and even
[00:08:25]Mary Laura Philpott: if you do an a plus plus plus job handling your thing, you are not rewarded with. any level of control over anyone else's thing or other future things that may come for you?
[00:08:40] Like there's no, there's no like great job, gold medal handling your thing. You're now exempt from things totally. Which is just so frustrating. Yeah. It's
[00:08:50]Laura McKowen: frustrating. It's every, I mean, it's, this is what I view or what I felt was just this, the through line of your book is
[00:08:59]Mary Laura Philpott: just. [00:09:00] I don't have control. Yeah.
[00:09:02] And I haven't, I don't all these feelings about it. Mm-hmm we don't have control. And I mean, you, you, you witness me this me character through bomb shelter. fighting that like in the beginning being like, no, no, no, I'm gonna get control. And you see all the ways I try to get control. And some of them are, are just absurd and some of them are sort of heartbreaking mm-hmm , but what I'm working my way toward is accepting.
[00:09:28] I do not have control, which is a bummer. And I hate it cuz I like control, but accepting it and saying, okay, well the, I, I guess I just really, I don't have control. It takes the struggle. Mm. And that's where like all pain is in struggle when you are struggling to make things fit and reconcile that don't there's pain.
[00:09:51] And when you finally accept, okay. So I, I can't get control because that is just not how life works and I'm not magic it, [00:10:00] you know, it, it deflates some of that struggle and then there's less pain. Yes. Even in dealing with things that are painful. It's, it's one of those. like if
[00:10:11]Laura McKowen: you had to boil down the 10, you know, uh, most, maybe even the five most important lessons of being a human it's it's it's in there.
[00:10:20] And the equation I learned in recovery was, um, pain times resistance equals struggle. It's the resistance that causes so much suffering.
[00:10:31]Mary Laura Philpott: Yes. Resistance or struggle, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. That's where the that's where. The pain is that's. What wears you down? What is the
[00:10:39]Laura McKowen: acceptance process for you like now?
[00:10:42] I mean, cuz this never ends, you don't accept and you're done.
[00:10:45]Mary Laura Philpott: No, it never ends. No, it's it's repetitive. It is. It is literally a daily process of me getting up in the morning and lying in my bed. And first I do the things I'm grateful for. And then I repeat to myself, I have very little control over what's happening.
[00:10:59] Like, [00:11:00] which sounds like a, almost counterintuitive, like, well, you're not taking agency over your life. If you remind yourself every morning that you have very little control, but for me, for the particular type of personality I have, which is, um, optimistic, but also highly anxious. And, um, I've always, since I was little had this sort of magical feeling of like, it's my mind, it's keeping all the planes in the sky.
[00:11:24] Um, I need that reminder. Maybe other people don't, but that's the reminder I need so much is out of my control. Don't get up and walk out of this bedroom and go try to control everybody and everything. And the whole planet that is not your job. And you cannot do that. like, I need that. So it's for me, the process is just like truly a daily reminder.
[00:11:45] Mm-hmm did
[00:11:47]Laura McKowen: writing the book.
[00:11:50]Mary Laura Philpott: I don't wanna say
[00:11:51]Laura McKowen: help you end up in a different place when you
[00:11:54]Mary Laura Philpott: start. Yes. Well, when you're making yourself communicate it so that other people can understand it, [00:12:00] you are putting yourself through the exercise of the journey. I mean, you know, in a way. When you write a book about having gone through something, you've already gone through it and you're reflecting on it and you're packaging it up for other people, but in that packaging and in, um, working on how you're going to articulate that journey, you are continuing to take yourself on it.
[00:12:23] So, yes, I think. I, I think it's yes and no. That's one
[00:12:28]Laura McKowen: of the things I loved about your book is you're so specific. You're not, there's no like hyperbolic language and just sort of generalities. It's very specific. And that's why it reaches when you have to be really specific about the language and the, the exact experience that you're having.
[00:12:47] It, it is transformative. It's all chemical. It does something in.
[00:12:52]Mary Laura Philpott: I agree. And it also sort of forces a level of honesty and self-awareness that you might be able to [00:13:00] get away without otherwise. Yeah. If you know, you have to articulate something accurately in order for other people to understand it. And in order for the story in the world that you're building to work, mm-hmm , you can't.
[00:13:13] You can't be in denial of too much.
[00:13:15]Laura McKowen: Another theme that I loved in the book was just this theme of contrast like that we can be you. Yeah. So many things that are seemingly opposite, uh, at, at the same time, like you talked about being both anxious and cheerful, that was one of the, the funnier moments in your book, cuz I completely relate.
[00:13:34] um, You write, uh, in this, the essay called seriously, you say my fondness for contrast, isn't unique to women or southerners, but I do think many Southern women learned it from our mamas. Do your work, earn that degree, get that promotion and also perfect. Your recipe for pimento cheese. I don't know if I said that, right.
[00:13:55] I've never made, made pimento cheese. It's delicious. yeah, I've had it, but I've never made it [00:14:00] curl your hair before you methodically destroy your opposing counsel in court. So just, can you talk about the theme of complexity? It's one of the things that we seem to be able to least tolerate
[00:14:12]Mary Laura Philpott: and agree. Yeah.
[00:14:15] Yes.
[00:14:15]Laura McKowen: And maybe start with the story, because it's so funny and real about the event that sort of kicks off that essay.
[00:14:24]Mary Laura Philpott: Oh, the skirt mm-hmm yeah, I was at a . I was at a party. This is years ago. And, uh, it's one of those parties where it's just all small talk because you kind of know people, but you don't really know people.
[00:14:36] And someone walked up to me and I had on this great outfit. I have to say I had on, it was a skirt that was, um, made of this utterly artificial. Substance. It was like sort of fake fur, but sort of feathers, but like really clearly was not either one. It was just a fun, you know how you have like certain fun outfits.
[00:14:53] You're like, this is my fun outfit. Yeah. I don't feel like going to this party, but if I put this on, it's gonna park me up. So somebody walked up to me at the party and said, um, [00:15:00] oh, aren't you cute? And I said, thank you. And, and then they turned to walk away and before they walked away, they said, of course, no one's ever going to take you seriously.
[00:15:09] If you keep dressing, like. And then, and then they just kept walking and I, I was left standing there, you know, holding my plastic cup of Chardonnay going, what, what, and it was so it stuck with me because it was, I mean, first of all, that's just a funny that person walked away and I was like, what, what, like evil villain character are you?
[00:15:28] And where did you just drop in from? Like, it was so memorable. So. Absurdly rude and funny. And also just so antithetical to kind of how I live my life. Like, why would you think that my goal in standing here is to be taken seriously? Yes. Why would anyone's primary goal in anything to be taken seriously?
[00:15:50] If you're. It's the number one thing you're thinking about is how other people perceive you. And is it seriously? That is a miserable way to live. Mm-hmm and clearly [00:16:00] someone who is wearing this, like rainbow fake fur, fake feather. Isn't out to live miserably. So, and the whole thing was very memorable, but it, it sort of set me down this, uh, this rabbit hole of thinking about why do I do these little, you know, wear fun outfits and do these little things that are sort of meaningless, but give me little bits of joy.
[00:16:19] And it's because. I feel like in, in a world that is as scary as our world is, and that has as many dark realities as our world does. Why not inject as much levity and joy and simple enjoyment of little things as you can. I love contrast in everything. And I agree with you that there's not much tolerance.
[00:16:46] Anymore, among people there, especially, it feels like over just the last decade, the degree to which, um, public discourse has become, uh, a, [00:17:00] a really stratified kind of narrowing people down to very specific types. You know, you are left, left, wing, or right, right. Way you are a monster or you are a Saint, you know, No one is that simple, no issue is that simple?
[00:17:20] No human being is that simple. And the more I feel like life is just ha more fun and more interesting. The more we actually look at the nuance in contrast, in situations and in people and see people not just as like heroes or villains. Did you read the bright hour? Yes. Ugh. And I love that
[00:17:41]Laura McKowen: book. I don't know if you remember this, but there's, she's talking about her mother.
[00:17:46] And how there's. things that were true about her mom. One would be that she was very opinionated. And like, I'm gonna tell you how this is and why, what that person was up to. And then in the [00:18:00] next breath, come back and say, I was wrong about that. Yes. As if it was no big deal. And I just think about that all the time.
[00:18:07] mm-hmm mm-hmm, , you're allowed to do that. You're allowed
[00:18:10]Mary Laura Philpott: to, in fact, that's the best feeling. I love being pleasantly surprised. I love when I go into a situation or meet a person or whatever, and my expectations are really low. And I think I know how it's gonna go. And then I am surprisingly delighted.
[00:18:24] That's the best feeling. That's the best kind of being. I totally totally agree, you know, to walk out of a movie or read a book or, or, or leave a social situation and go, okay. I thought I was gonna hate that. That was great.
[00:18:35]Laura McKowen: Yes. Agree. Or did, and you know, it, sometimes it's hard when you are very indignant about something and you have to kind of like, I was wrong but it's also kinda great.
[00:18:45] Like I don't, it was a tiny scene. It was like tiny in that book. Mm-hmm but it stuck with me. It's I think about it all the time. You're allowed. You're allowed to have an opinion and you're allowed to say, you know, I was wrong about that. Yeah. My opinion was wrong. [00:19:00] Yeah. Anyway, that was a little tangent, but, um, no, I totally got the, the, the theme of contrast.
[00:19:06] It's something we talk about on the show constantly. Um, you know, holding the middle ground. It's harder. That's also what we don't it's it's it doesn't sell
[00:19:16]Mary Laura Philpott: as well. mm-hmm, , it's, it's a lot
[00:19:20]Laura McKowen: harder to do. Um,
[00:19:23]Mary Laura Philpott: it's, it's
[00:19:24]Laura McKowen: where, you know, even sobriety. Uh, one definition that I learned from, you know, is not just like the absence of something, but the ability to savor
[00:19:36]Mary Laura Philpott: yes.
[00:19:36]Laura McKowen: Like you are on that Razor's edge. You're in the
[00:19:41]Mary Laura Philpott: middle. Yep. yep. And to tell and to hold that space. Yeah. And to acknowledge the boldness of, of everything at
[00:19:48]Laura McKowen: certain points, your book had me just like, oh God, especially the parts about parenting. Like they just, and, and you have this certain section about parenting, like.
[00:19:59][00:20:00] Teen a, a Fe, a girl teen, and what she will do and how you'll interpret it and what, you know, the, the optimism of what you think it's gonna be like versus what it actually is. And then those heartbreaking moments, it was just like, oh, I'm in that. Yeah. And so it's heartbreaking, but then it's the totally what you, what you joke about yourself being anxious and cheerful.
[00:20:24]Mary Laura Philpott: Yeah, I am both. I, and I always, always have been. And then, you know, there are certain moments in life, obviously where the balance tips more in one direction than the other. And you see me go through that in, in bomb shelter, but I love, I love acknowledging both.
[00:20:41]Laura McKowen: So on the parenting part. I wrote in like these big words at the end of, uh, I can't remember what chapter it is, but I put the inevitable failure of being a parent is what I wrote.
[00:20:56]Mary Laura Philpott: that's a great title for something oh, [00:21:00] because it's,
[00:21:01]Laura McKowen: it is just, there's nothing quite like reckoning with that to me. Mm-hmm um, because it's absolutely unavoidable.
[00:21:10]Mary Laura Philpott: Yep. It's you.
[00:21:13]Laura McKowen: Zero ways that you are not gonna mess up your kids in some way. Mm-hmm, , there's, there's zero possibility rather, and you can't keep the world from impacting them.
[00:21:22] Mm-hmm and you talk about this, like all throughout, and it's, like I said, it's so gratifying cuz it's one of the harder things for me to even feel or admit that I feel let alone talk about. Um, but I wanted you to, I wanted to walk through just to highlight this, that. your son had this seizure that night, but your daughter was doing something else.
[00:21:44]Mary Laura Philpott: Yes. And you have
[00:21:47]Laura McKowen: this gorgeous line at the end of that essay. Um, where you say you do not owe anyone, your stillness or your silence. Not even us.
[00:21:58]Mary Laura Philpott: Yeah. She was awake [00:22:00] the whole time and we didn't figure that out until after. So he had a seizure around 4:00 AM and we called 9 1 1 and the ambulance came and I rode in the ambulance with him to the hospital.
[00:22:10] And my husband stayed home because it was a weekday and, and, you know, seemed sensible at the time to be like, well, we've gotta get our daughter to school. And so he stayed home to, to get her to school and then come join us. At the hospital. And, uh, when he went into her room at six 30 to wake her up for breakfast, she was just sitting on her bed, just crosslegged sitting there in the dark.
[00:22:29] And he said, oh, you're up? And she said, yeah, I've been up this whole time. And she had been sitting there for over two hours in the dark hearing, all of this. And I, I, I think so often about what that morning must have sounded like and looked like from inside her room. Like she, she must have seen. The lights from the ambulance and she must have heard the guys, the EMTs running up our stairs.
[00:22:55] I mean, there were these huge beefcake guys, you know, running up the stairs. She [00:23:00] must have, I mean, our, where our son fell and seized is just right across the hall from her bedroom door. So he, she must have heard the, the thud and heard us finding him and calling out his name and saying, do you know who we are?
[00:23:14] Do you know who you are? And he didn't, you know, it was just to, to think of what she heard and what she must have been trying to put together on her own and then how she must have reasoned. She was only, um, about 13 at the time, just newly 13 and. She was kind of going through this phase where she was watching her older brother go through adolescences and kind of considering how is this going?
[00:23:39] All right. It looks like adolescence involves a lot of conflict. I'm going to see if I can do this without conflict. So, you know, in retrospect, I can look back and see her trying to. Good. Yeah. And quiet and do what she thought people would want from her. And in that morning, that's what she was doing. She, she, she thought.[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] I'll stay in here until someone tells me to come out, because that would be the most helpful. And so we had this whole, you know, larger talk about you don't owe anyone, your stillness and your silence, but also literally if you're in the house and you see SI you hear sirens and you see lights get out if you smell smoke, get up and get out.
[00:24:18] Yeah. There was. So there was so much on so many levels to be learned from that morning. Yeah. And just
[00:24:23]Laura McKowen: how much that took for her. Like that's a deeply ingrained. coping mechanism or, or just desire to be helpful.
[00:24:38]Mary Laura Philpott: Yeah. To, and to be what people want. And I think about it all the time with her in particular, because she's, um, she's now.
[00:24:44] Midway through high school, obviously, cuz it's a few years later, but she is an actor. So she acts that's her thing and that's what she wants to do with her life. And that's what she does with every spare minute of her educational life. And so she has now for years, puts so [00:25:00] much effort into being what is called for in a role mm-hmm and becoming.
[00:25:07] What a, what a character demands and what a show demands and what the audience wants. And so I, I think a lot about trying to counteract that in some way, as a parent, if I can, right with, you know, you can't always be what everyone else wants you to be. You have to be yourself. First, so protect, you know, I'm very protective of, of protective of her and I want her to be protective of herself so that she's, you know, she doesn't just become this conduit for what, whatever anyone else wants the world wants.
[00:25:39] Um, but you're right. I mean, the there's failure baked into every phase of parenting and I, you know, The thing that's so silly about it is you don't learn until you've been through it. Yeah. So once you've been through a phase of parenting, like once I've been through all this stuff with her, I'm like, oh, I got it.
[00:25:53] So what I need to teach her is you can't be what everybody else wants. I wish I could go back five years and tell myself that then, but [00:26:00] you, you only know by going through it. So you gain this wisdom and then you're like, well, that would've helped past me, but right now, I've gotta figure out what the next wisdom is.
[00:26:09] Cuz it keeps moving.
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[00:27:57]Laura McKowen: Another essay that I loved every time I read every essay [00:28:00] I read, I was like, oh, that's my favorite, you know? And then you read the next one. Um, but investment pieces just had me rolling, laughing. Um, it's about how you try how we try to like, make things work for us that just. Don't work for us that we don't actually like, and yours is about like this woo sweater.
[00:28:21] I hate will sweaters too. Yet. Every season I buy one because I'm like, it's so cute. And I'll just wear an undershirt and I'm, you know, I I'm, I'm not, I don't even have the excuse of being a cold, like being cold. I'm hot. I'm like an oven. so it's. Uh, why do we, why do you think we resist that so hard? It seems like for me, every time I've allowed myself to just feel what I actually feel.
[00:28:49] Mm-hmm want what I want, have the preferences I have
[00:28:53]Mary Laura Philpott: get rid of what you don't want. Yeah.
[00:28:55]Laura McKowen: It's like this revolution. It can be the tiniest [00:29:00] thing. Like finally admitting that I. sleeves that are tight on my arms and not tight, but just even like the, I have this B very baggy sweater on no one can see, like, this is fine.
[00:29:12] but this would not be fine. I would be mad all day. I'd be hot and suffocated. Yeah. I hate dark chocolate. I just don't like it. I know you're supposed to like it. It's supposed to be great. You
[00:29:21]Mary Laura Philpott: don't have to like, it I'll eat yours. Okay. ,
[00:29:24]Laura McKowen: I'll send all mine to you that I buy thinking. I said not
[00:29:27]Mary Laura Philpott: a problem.
[00:29:27] That piece, actually, that, that chapter I had written. Separately. It was in my, my little Scrivener file of random, separate things I had written and didn't know what to do with, and in a, a relatively late draft of bomb shelter, I was sort of combing through other pieces. I had to make sure there was nothing that I meant to put in there that I had like saved in the wrong file.
[00:29:51] And I found that essay didn't know when I had written it. I was like, is this new? Was this old? When did I write this? But I thought, you know what? I'm I'm, I'm pulling this into [00:30:00] bomb shelter because it, where I placed it is sort of like three quarters of the way through. And one of the things that I'm figuring out in, in the, the bigger bomb shelter narrative is, um, so many of the things that we do as human beings to give ourselves a sense of security and safety mm-hmm are illusions mm-hmm and they're silly, and they don't work and wool sweaters.
[00:30:25] that was one of the, you know, one of the things like if you have, you know, wool has this image, it's like it's sturdy and it is time honored and it is not artificial and it will keep you warm and, and you must have it. And no, it, it itches me every single time. And it's, it is where it is because we needed a moment of comic relief at that point in the book.
[00:30:47] Yeah. Um, but it's also kind of making a point. We do have to come up with our own security mechanisms, you know, large and small, silly and important. And the only [00:31:00] ones that work are the ones that work for you and the ones that work for somebody else might not work for you.
[00:31:04]Laura McKowen: Yeah, it sounds so simple and obvious and like we're, you know, I'm a grown woman.
[00:31:09] Ish. I'm 45. And yet I still have to admit to myself sometimes that I don't like things. Yeah. Um, but you also write about that and I loved that towards the end about you say, on my 40th or grade 40th and grade 41st or 41st grade, 42nd grade as if we're all still in school, we're all still, you know, we, you it's, it's a weird reckoning when you're a parent and you're also.
[00:31:39] you know, it's a, it feels like you're joking. Like you're play, acting this role and you're still totally growing up.
[00:31:48]Mary Laura Philpott: Yeah. We're all, we're all always growing. I, I borrowed that line. Actually. I borrowed that line from myself. So I wrote a piece for the New York times a couple years ago called. I think they, they titled it.
[00:31:59] I'm [00:32:00] so excited for 40th grade, but the whole thing was about how, you know, here I am raising people, but I still do feel very much. Like I am still in progress. I don't feel like I'm a fully cooked adult individual who has any answers at all. And when you get out of school and you don't have that automatic annual time to restart thing of going to the next grade, you sort of have to invent your own.
[00:32:26] Restart moments. And at some point along the way, when my kids were little, I sort of decided, well, if they're gonna start over every August with a new school year, that's what I'm gonna see as kind of my, almost like my new year's Eve, my, my new year begins when the new school year begins and I'm gonna set intentions for myself at the beginning of every school year.
[00:32:44] And they can be small. They can be. This is the year. I finally clean out my office. Mm-hmm obviously that's not this year. If you can see my office behind me, um, you know, this is the year I'm gonna learn to do whatever this is the year I'm gonna change a habit. That to me is [00:33:00] really invigorating. And I enjoy giving myself that chance to start over, but I wrote a whole, a whole.
[00:33:05] Piece about it. That's not in bomb shelter, but I did, I did pull a couple of lines borrow from my own and I'm gonna
[00:33:10]Laura McKowen: use it. I'm gonna use this year. I will be going into 45th grade mm-hmm in August. It also happens to be my 45th birthday in August. I, I hate this question. I also love it. Like, what is next?
[00:33:25] What, what do you, cause you said after, after I miss you, when I blink, I'm not doing essays
[00:33:30]Mary Laura Philpott: again. I know I I'm right back there right now. Okay. So I'm, it's so funny. And actually kind of comforting how cyclical my process is. And I'm much less panicked now about the fact that I don't know what I'm doing next than I was last time.
[00:33:44] Last time when I didn't know what I was doing next, I was like, well, time to hang it up. I guess I got one good book and that's it. Goodbye. um, and now I'm like, oh, this is the part where I think there's nothing left. And I think my tank is empty and this is gonna last for a few months. And then something will start to bubble.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] I hope that's true. Um, but thus far, the rest of the process has also been very cyclical. So I'm, I'm sort of trusting and also crossing my fingers. Yeah. And trying to write a little bit every day and just kind of see what I get and see where it goes. And I don't know for sure. And that uncertainty of course drives me insane.
[00:34:19] Don't you
[00:34:20]Laura McKowen: have this sense that you can't just write endless memoirs?
[00:34:25]Mary Laura Philpott: I, well, yes and no. I mean, I do think. When I was at this phase last time when I was like, I got nothing. And then I started writing bomb, shelter, everything, almost everything that's in bomb shelter had already happened. It was all right there.
[00:34:41] I just wasn't seeing it. And I wasn't beginning to see a story in it. I wasn't starting to see how the pieces would go together and become this thing that people could read as a, as a piece of literature and entertainment. Mm-hmm um, so it's very possible that right now, Plenty of memoir ingredients right [00:35:00] there in the pantry that I just need to go get.
[00:35:02] Yeah. Or it's possible that I need to live for a while. Yeah. And see, see what happens next. Yeah. Yeah. I, but I have no problem with the idea of, of serial memoirs. I, I like there are a lot of serial memoirists whose books I love and I don't think there's any reason why a person should only have one or two in them.
[00:35:21] Well, if you think about it, like all our lives are very. Big and rich and complicated. There's a lot going on in our lives. And when you write a memoir, you know, I think about both of my books have almost the same number of chapters, which is weird. It's it's either they both have 32 chapters or one has 31 and one has 32, but it's, it's close.
[00:35:39] You live this big rich, complicated life, but then you write a book. That's just, let me tell you 32 things. Yeah. You've got way more than 32 things to say. Yeah. The, the, the question and the job is to figure out. Next 32 things go together in some way to tell a story or answer a [00:36:00] question or grapple with something that's fun and entertaining to read.
[00:36:06] Yeah. But there's, you know, way more than 32 things to
[00:36:10]Laura McKowen: choose from. So true. That was one of my big misunderstandings of memoir. I'm writing about my life. No, you're actually not. You're writing about like a tiny slice. Yeah. I was listening to a podcast by Rob bell. Do you know him? Yeah. Okay.
[00:36:25]Mary Laura Philpott: So, I mean, I don't know him know him, but I,
[00:36:27]Laura McKowen: yeah.
[00:36:28] Yeah. you're familiar.
[00:36:29]Mary Laura Philpott: Um,
[00:36:31]Laura McKowen: well before that, one of, I just got back notes. From my first draft of, of the current book I'm writing. And one of the things, one of the big notes that my editor said was you use a lot of other people. You use a lot of quotes in this book, a lot of other people's words. Mm-hmm . And I'm wondering if you are hiding behind them.
[00:36:55]Mary Laura Philpott: Um,
[00:36:57]Laura McKowen: try saying things. [00:37:00] Trust in your own thoughts and your own voice. Mm-hmm cut down how many quotes you're using by a third. And it was hard to read, cuz she's totally right. Yeah's good advice. This book is required. It's a different book. It's more prescriptive. It is I'm, I'm not as comfortable writing that way.
[00:37:22] Mm-hmm um, as a teacher and it required a lot of research and, and I just also want to know people to know I'm serious, you know, that, that I'm valid and that I , I'm not just making this stuff up, but then I would listen just this last week to this podcast, by Rob bell called quote yourself about this, like.
[00:37:46] You don't need to hide behind other people's words and, and their thoughts. Like you, they can inform all of that, but, but you don't need to do that. And actually just don't and this is very related to your book, I think because you talk, [00:38:00] there is a sort of sub theme of. Arriving into one's self, I think, and, and trying to be more comfortable with that person, accepting of that person, compassionate of that person of what you are and what you aren't.
[00:38:15] And you, I noticed you don't use a lot as like, she is very sparse with other people's words. There's a couple, few times where you quote other people. And I thought, I think that's what makes part of what makes your voice so strong in the
[00:38:31]Mary Laura Philpott: book. And that is such an interesting observation and such a, um, that's a neat story about your draft and your editor and that feedback because I do, I, I tend to agree with it.
[00:38:43] That's a, a necessary step in confidence. Yeah. Is going all right now, now let me, let me do my. Let me do my thing. Here's what I really think. Yeah. But it's a natural step along the way. That's good
[00:38:55]Laura McKowen: to know. Yeah. I think it's also, I'm a lover of words. Like I, I, [00:39:00] I did use a lot of other people's words, not a lot, but I.
[00:39:05] A lot of poetry and things like that in my, in we are the luckiest because I, I love words. It's how I've always made sense of the world. So if like there's some profound string of words that communicates, you know, or underscores it, but it's a subtle thing, you know, when you're using it to hide versus using it to, to really nail
[00:39:23]Mary Laura Philpott: something down.
[00:39:24] Right. And when you're quoting, I mean, you, you mentioned poetry, there are certain poetic lines that. if you're going to reference them at all, you have to quote them because they're so singular. There's, there's a line in bomb shelter that I quoted from ocean VGs book on earth. We're briefly gorgeous. Yes.
[00:39:43] That and it's, and I'm gonna get it wrong, but it's like, uh, the eye alone in its socket is God's loneliest creation. It doesn't even know there's another one, just like it, two inches away. And, and I was writing. Loneliness and about [00:40:00] faces and about all sorts of things. And I thought, I, this is that line stuck with me so much after I read it, I was like, I cannot not include this.
[00:40:07] Yeah. But I also can't just refer to it without actually quoting it. So I do try to be sparing and, and really intentional when I do quote somebody else. But man, I love that line.
[00:40:17]Laura McKowen: Thank you so much. I'm glad I got to meet you and, uh, of course, talk to about your
[00:40:21]Mary Laura Philpott: work. Thank you. Thank you. This is a, this is really a joy.
[00:40:25] This feels like a. This kind of conversation feels like sort of a relaxed, happy, you know, not the breakneck crazy pace of book, tour stuff. This is fun. I like this.
[00:40:48] Thank
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