Do your relationships often feel one-sided or unbalanced? Are you always giving in just so things will go smoothly? Do you wish you could learn to say no—but, like, nicely? Then step right up as Laura and Melissa Urban break it all down as they discuss Melissa's new book:
Melissa Urban is one of the few people we’ve asked back to the show and there’s a reason for that. She’s got such a unique, magnetic energy and this strong, no-nonsense, yet compassionate way of showing up in the world.
And now, she’s written The Book of Boundaries: Set the Limits That Will Set You Free and, can we get a hell yes? We need this in our lives.
Melissa walks us through why boundaries are one of the most important life skills one can have, common pitfalls, why she wrote a specific section for mother-in-laws, and so much more. Friends, we are not overstating it when we say it’s hands-down the best book on boundaries EVER.
Also, we have an announcement: we’ve decided to bring TMST to a close, and this episode will be our second to last. Laura will have a lot to say about what went into this decision next week, in her final solo episode.
Melissa Urban’s site: https://www.melissau.com/
Melissa’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/melissau/
The Book of Boundaries: https://www.melissau.com/boundaries-book/
Episode link: https://www.tmstpod.com/episodes/66-melissa-urban-on-how-boundaries-will-set-you-free
Spotify playlist for this episode: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5fhCRmsIQewGFB5b1Qz9fd
Here’s the transcript:
Tell Me Something True is a 100% independent podcast. There are no corporations or advertisers backing this community. We are 100% funded by the TMST community. Support TMST: https://tmst.supercast.com/
TMST Melissa Urban (Boundaries) final
[00:00:00]Laura McKowen: Hey friends. Welcome to TMS T before I introduce today's guests, I have an important announcement about the show. We have decided to bring TMS T to a close, and this episode right here will be our second to. I've got a lot to say about what went into this decision and I'm gonna be sharing that next week.
[00:00:30] In my final solo episode for now, I will offer two things first to put to bed. Any fears that the episodes will disappear. They won't, we're keeping everything up. And second, although this was not an easy decision and it comes with some very real loss. It is ultimately a positive one and it comes from a place of expansion and focus, not constriction or failure.
[00:00:58] We wanna share the news [00:01:00] before we just dropped the last episode on you next week. And as I said, I'll talk in quite a lot of detail about what went into it and reflect on what the show has been for us. Uh, and for me in next week's episode, which will be the final. All right. So I cannot think of a better person to be the last interview on TMS T than today's guest Melissa urban.
[00:01:26] She's one of the few people who we've asked back to the show, and there's a good reason for that. In addition to being the CEO of whole 30, a multiple New York times bestselling author, a mother and someone in long term recovery, she's also a friend and someone I actually learned a lot from constantly.
[00:01:44] She's got. Very unique magnetic energy and such a strong, no nonsense yet compassionate way of showing up in the world. Whenever I engage with her or her work, I find myself standing up a little [00:02:00] taller, feeling a little more brave, and clearly I'm not the only one. When I heard she was writing a book on boundaries, I thought, hell yes.
[00:02:10] Even though the world definitely doesn't need another book on boundaries, but I'd already seen her posting a lot about her approach to them on Instagram over the years. And despite being really strong in the boundary department, myself, thanks to recovery. I learned a lot from those posts. The name of the book is called the book of boundaries.
[00:02:30] It comes out on October 11th and we go way into why she wrote it. Why boundaries are one of the most important life skills. One can have common pitfalls, why she wrote a specific section for mother-in-laws and so much more. I got to read an early copy and people, I am not overstating it. When I say hands down, this is the best book on boundaries that I've read.
[00:02:56] And I, I think I've read them all. It was actually a [00:03:00] lot more like reading a good memoir than reading self-help. If the memoir was actionable and made you feel like you had a new superpower, although it doesn't come out for a couple weeks, you can. Pre-order the book of boundaries right now. We've got a link in our show notes or head to any place books are sold and grab it.
[00:03:18] You're going to want this one on your nightstand. I promise. I hope you love my conversation with Melissa urban, as much as I did. Here
[00:03:28]Melissa Urban: it is.
[00:03:39] Hi, you're back. I am back. I'm really excited to see you again and
[00:03:43]Laura McKowen: chat with you. I can't wait to talk about this book. I mean, I've read, I think all the books on boundaries out there, uh, I've taught boundaries as someone, you know, that works with people in recovery. It's a. Topic. And I said to you, this is the best boundaries book that I [00:04:00] have read yet.
[00:04:01] And I meant that because it's so, it's so relatable, but also, um, like practical, like you can actually use it. Did you ever think you'd write a book on boundaries?
[00:04:13]Melissa Urban: It depends on when you're thinking about like the time period you're thinking about. Right. Cause no, obviously it didn't enter into my consciousness until, you know, early 2020 I had, I've always talked about boundaries with the whole 30 community.
[00:04:27] Right. I've been doing whole 30 leading people through the program since 2009. For those of you familiar with the whole 30 it's an elimination program. So for 30 days you say no, a lot to offers of, you know, Break room donuts or pizza at birthday parties or happy hour wine. And. I figured out very quickly that people felt uncomfortable saying no to food and drink, especially in social settings.
[00:04:49] So I would help them say no on the whole 30. And once people figured out I was good at helping them say no to that stuff, they started bringing other, you know, how do I say no to my pushy [00:05:00] mother-in-law or my overbearing boss or my nosy neighbor. So in a way the whole 30 is a boundaries program, and I've been talking about boundaries for more than a decade, but it wasn't until the pandemic hit in 2020, when all of our lives, like our stuff just bled together, work and home and school and kids and personal relationships and housework.
[00:05:20] And like we're all doing everything in the same space together that it became really apparent that people needed. More help. And that's when I really started to focus more on boundaries with my Instagram community. And that's when people started saying, you should write a book about this. I would read more about this.
[00:05:35] We could like, how, what else could you do on this topic? Mm-hmm so that's kind of when the idea first came into my head. The best part of
[00:05:42]Laura McKowen: the book is that it's, it's simple and, and accessible and simple takes like that is the highest compliment because it takes so much work to make something simple.
[00:05:51] Yeah. A lot of the books that I've read on boundaries and there are some amazing ones out there, but they're not simple. One of the reasons it is simple is because it just [00:06:00] focuses on relationships. And how did you get to that? And like, figure that out.
[00:06:06]Melissa Urban: Yes. So a lot of the ways I have always historically seen boundaries framed are by the sort of area of your life that the boundary is designed to protect.
[00:06:17] So people often categorize boundaries into like physical boundaries, uh, emotional boundaries, um, financial boundaries. And I always found that really complicated and confusing because. There's so much overlap in any one situation. So I give an example of, you know, a woman who wrote to me and said, my husband just bought mid pandemic, this huge amount of workout equipment and stuck it into our tiny little apartment.
[00:06:46] How, like, what do I do about this? How do I set a boundary here? And when I thought about it, I was like, okay, this is a physical boundary, please. Don't crowd our physical space without checking with me first. Mm-hmm this is a financial boundary. You just spent all this money on workout equipment without even talking to me.
[00:06:59][00:07:00] It's an, it's a mental health boundary, which is like, are we not in partnership here? And isn't this something that you'd wanna discuss with me? but really the boundary that she needs to set is designed to improve their relationship. My, my relationship with my romantic partner and when I started framing it in that perspective, which area of your relationships is its boundary designed to support?
[00:07:21] It became very clear to me, very crystal clear. Yeah. Where I needed to set the boundary with whom and. More more specifically the benefits that I would see in terms of my own health and safety and to this relationship, if I were able to successfully set the boundary. So that's the framework I chose for the book.
[00:07:37] It really works
[00:07:39]Laura McKowen: because we also think in terms of relationships, almost exclusively, you know? Sure. Like the, we, we have a, an, an very intimate and immediate sense of the relationships where we have anxiety and you do a great job of. Of qualifying where you, you know, here's the sum tips where you [00:08:00] might need to set a boundary and they're all about feelings of yes.
[00:08:04] How you interact with someone. I wanna talk about how you set up the book. You go way into your recovery story and talk about that as. You didn't know it at the time, but the, the jumping off point for your recovery is when you set your first boundary and that it really saved your life. And you didn't know that that's what it was called at the time.
[00:08:26] But I, I love this because we don't really think of boundaries as serious as they are. Can you talk about what was going on when you, when that initial boundary was set and yeah. Share your experience of how it built you built
[00:08:42]Melissa Urban: on. Yeah. I mean the first boundary I ever set with another human being was, you know, into my second recovery.
[00:08:53] After my relapse sitting at a party, I should not have been at with people I did not know with God [00:09:00] knows what happening in the bathrooms and me blurting out in this moment of absolute panic for my health, my safety, my life, my recovery. I can't be here. I should not be in this space. I need to leave. And that changed everything I had been up until that point in my recovery.
[00:09:22] I spent five years as an addict. I had a year of recovery before I relapsed up until that point. I had only set one very shaky boundary with myself, which is. I'm gonna try not to use and I relied on nothing, but like willpower and luck and circumstance to allow me to like, hold that boundary. And I was so afraid to share any of my own need.
[00:09:45] Not only was I afraid to like ask myself what I needed, because my trauma and my addiction had taught me that, like, I can't trust myself and I don't have worth, and I don't have value to even have needs. Nevermind. Express them. I was so afraid that expressing my needs was gonna make [00:10:00] my life. Smaller. And it already felt so small.
[00:10:03] Mm-hmm I felt so alone and isolated and fragile. And I was afraid that if I said to people who I loved and who I cared about, like, Hey, I also need this from you in order to keep me safe, that they would go to. And all of a sudden I would be completely alone and I could not have been more wrong. That boundary I set in that moment with my friend was the turning point in how I was able to build.
[00:10:29] The last 22 years of my recovery, where, you know, he was able to hear my need and he was able to, instead of scoffing or making fun of me, he said, okay, I, I didn't know. And he asked me some questions and I shared a bit more and he took me home. Yeah. And that was the moment where I was like, oh my gosh, he sees my worth in value too.
[00:10:49] And so maybe I could, and this strengthened our relationship. Now I trust him more. We have a deeper connection. And now I feel like what if I could [00:11:00] advocate for myself in other areas of my life. And that was it. That was the beginning of, you know, my, the recovery that I have have built for the last more than two decades.
[00:11:11]Laura McKowen: You touched on a couple things there that I think are so key for people's fear of boundaries that, that they're going to destroy their attachments, that, and, and often these like sort of tenuous attachments, what do you tell people when the experience doesn't go well, mm-hmm because sometimes it doesn't.
[00:11:29] Right. What do you tell people about that? And then also, um, you know, just because it doesn't, I think just because it doesn't go well, It still
[00:11:38]Melissa Urban: can feel good. Yes, absolutely. So, yes, I was lucky in that moment that I chose the right person to share this boundary with, and this person, you know, really cared and respected and honored that what I need people to know though, and what I do a really thorough job of explaining in the book is that.
[00:11:58] Boundaries. Aren't about telling [00:12:00] people what they should do or trying to control other people's actions or behavior boundaries come from the self and they tell other people what you will do to keep yourself safe and healthy. So had I sat at that party and said, I can't be here. I need to go home. And my friend James had said, that's dumb.
[00:12:17] You're fine. I'm not leaving. I'm having a good time. What I would've realized was a. This speaks volumes as to my relationship with James and how much I can trust him. Mm-hmm and B. Now I need to need to take the action that I need to keep myself safe and healthy, which is okay. I'm gonna find a ride. Okay.
[00:12:35] I'm gonna call an Uber. Okay. You know, I'm gonna. Walk outside and whatever, but whatever that looks like, there were still things that I could do in that moment to keep myself safe and healthy. And that is incredibly empowering. Boundaries are about telling other people what you will do because you are worthy and you have value and you are responsible for taking care of your own health and safety.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] And that I think is a really important lesson that I, in that moment I didn't have to learn, but I'm so happy. I did learn it. Yeah. In future encounters, which weren't so successful. I lost a lot of friends in that recovery mm-hmm and it didn't go well, but it was exactly what needed to happen. And I felt an incredible sense of confidence and empowerment because of it.
[00:13:20] Right. You
[00:13:21]Laura McKowen: feel this internal dignity, like your body straightens up and, and, and there's like this opening, but that's because it's the truth,
[00:13:28]Melissa Urban: I
[00:13:29]Laura McKowen: think. Yes. Right. It's always expansive. Yes. and lying, you know, or dishonesty or hiding or secrecy or abandoning yourself might feel slightly better in the moment mm-hmm , but it feels like a cons a contraction.
[00:13:42]Melissa Urban: It is. Yeah, it is a contraction. And I think once you have the experience of speaking your truth and realizing how it, you and I have talked about this, it lands, it hits differently. You feel it differently in your body and you show up differently. And once you feel that it's really hard to think [00:14:00] that playing small or covering up or hiding.
[00:14:03] Not sharing how you feel actually does feel better in the moment. And that's where this boundaries practice can start to create some incredibly positive inertia in your life. Right. Yeah.
[00:14:13]Laura McKowen: Right. What is your definition of a
[00:14:16]Melissa Urban: boundary? Yeah. So you can think about a boundary as a, a. A limit that you set around how other people are allowed to engage with you.
[00:14:28] So if you think about, you know, standing in the middle of a big field and you draw a big circle around yourself, that's your boundary. Anything you allow inside that circle is because it feels good and safe and healthy to you and helps make that relationship better. Anything you keep outside that circle is because it doesn't feel good.
[00:14:45] It feels unsafe. It feels harmful or hurtful to that relationship. Yep. So that's Essent. My the framework or the definition of a boundary, it's always about the self. It's not about controlling other people. It's about agency and telling other [00:15:00] people, the actions you are willing to take to keep yourself safe and healthy, or, you know, making a request around that limit to improve your relationship.
[00:15:08] And one of the most
[00:15:09]Laura McKowen: helpful, I think, frameworks that you provide in the book and you post about this a lot on Instagram is the green, yellow, red
[00:15:19]Melissa Urban: framework.
[00:15:20]Laura McKowen: You call it, uh, minimum dose for maximum effect. So can you talk about. This framework.
[00:15:26]Melissa Urban: So it's a minimum dose, maximum effect as an old physics principle credited to our committees.
[00:15:31] And, but it's also very popular in current health and fitness, which is to say like, if your chicken nuggets get hot, after a minute in the microwave, don't cook 'em for two, right. Minimum dose maximum effect. And when it comes to boundaries, it is how gentle. Can our language be and still effectively communicate that boundary and have it be respected.
[00:15:53] So, you know, again, you don't, you could go in with the harshest most, you know, [00:16:00] Fusia level boundary right off the bat, and sure it would be effective, but it would also probably be really damaging to the relationship. And it's probably unnecessary. So I encourage people to a. Always go in with good assumptions.
[00:16:14] The person that you're speaking to didn't know that you had a limit there, or that they overstepped it because they're not a mind reader and you need to communicate that limit to them clearly, but kindly yeah. And use the gentle language possible. But I do provide escalations. So, you know, one of the examples in the book is if somebody comes into your house and they light up a cigarette, the green boundary is, oh, we don't allow smoking in the house.
[00:16:37] Would you either put it out or go. right. And then based on that scenario, if you need to escalate because they refuse, which is rude, or they come over next time and they forget, you've got this yellow language, which is a little stronger. And then the red boundary, which is essentially the boundary itself, the consequence, which is this person is no longer invited to my home because they have proven that they cannot [00:17:00] respect my healthy limits.
[00:17:01] Yeah. So in every single script and there are more than 130 in the book I give you these specific. How exactly do you say it? Yes. In a way that's really conversational and very natural and doesn't sound like therapy. Speed. right. But is very effective. That's the best
[00:17:18]Laura McKowen: part is the, the
[00:17:19]Melissa Urban: actual scripts and a lot of the boundaries, resources that I've read throughout the years, you know, somebody will write into like a miss, you know, deer, whatever column.
[00:17:29] You know, my mother-in-law is constantly dropping by, without calling. I really need to set a boundary here. And the response is like, yes, you do. Here's how the boundary would benefit the relationship. You have to be, you know, firm, but kind, but they never told you how to say it. Mm-hmm . And I was always like, but what am I supposed to say in this situation?
[00:17:45] And that's what people would always say to me. So I wanna tell you exactly how you could say it and provide you with so many different ways to say it so that you can either have a really clear starting point and you can use that word for word or. You can say, oh, that's a good way to put it and then frame it [00:18:00] in a, you know, language that feels really authentic to you.
[00:18:02] So you said this before, but
[00:18:03]Laura McKowen: I wanna like linger for a minute that a boundary is about your behavior, the self, not theirs. And I think that's really confusing to people because in my mind and their mind, it's like, but they're doing something I don't want them to do. Yes. So how is it about your behavior and not, yes, not the other person.
[00:18:24]Melissa Urban: So. I can never control what someone else tries to do. I'll give you an example. My parents have occasionally overstepped into my parenting of my son. They will make suggestions that are unhelpful or over parent in the moment. So my boundary is around. I will not receive your parenting advice around what I choose to do with my own child.
[00:18:51] Right. Please do not offer unsolicited advice. I will not be receiving that now. I can't control what they choose to do when I'm not around. They could [00:19:00] talk about, they could talk like smack about my parenting all day long. I also can't control whether or not in the moment they say. Do you, you know, should he really be watching this much iPad?
[00:19:10] I can't control that. All right. But what I can do is control how I respond to that. So a green boundary would be please don't offer unsolicited parenting advice. It's not helpful in the moment. If I want your advice, I'll ask for it. That is a, a request I'm essentially letting them know I have a limit and I'm asking them to meet it.
[00:19:29] If they're not able to do that. My yellow boundary in the moment is, oops, grandpa. Remember mom's in charge when she's here. Why don't we go into the other room and watch iPad? So I'm removing myself from the situation the red boundary might be. We are not going to be able to visit. If you cannot control your desire to insert yourself into my parenting.
[00:19:50] That's like the harshest consequence. That's the boundary itself. Yeah. But in all of those situations, I'm not saying. you can't think bad things about my [00:20:00] parenting or talk about it amongst yourself. What I am saying is if you want our relationship to be good and you want it to continue in the way that it has been, I need you to like censor yourself in this moment, right?
[00:20:11] Yeah. Yeah. And they're either going to comply or they won't, and I will take the action. I need to ensure that my mental health and my parenting is safe. It's such
[00:20:20]Laura McKowen: a mind switch. I think it's so helpful because then it's not about them being a bad person and them being this and that cuz which they, the next thing I wanna talk about is guilt and and you call it resting
[00:20:32]Melissa Urban: guilt face
[00:20:33] Yeah. Which just
[00:20:34]Laura McKowen: so funny. Um, but that, that boundaries are mean. You know, I
[00:20:39]Melissa Urban: think, yes, there's super common misconception. Yeah. This,
[00:20:42] this
[00:20:42]Laura McKowen: idea that they're mean, and you know that you're gonna hurt someone's feelings by asking them, by telling them that you don't like something or whatever. So how, how do you just get people to, to see that boundaries aren't mean.
[00:20:59]Melissa Urban: Well, [00:21:00] we have all been conditioned and I'm talking. We, when I talk about women and specifically when I talk about moms by the patriarchy and misogyny and stereotypically rigid gender roles and religious influences and maybe our own recovery programs, mm-hmm we have been conditioned to not have needs.
[00:21:17] To be compliant to make ourselves small, to put everyone else's needs above our own. And so to even have needs, nevermind express them feels like this radical act. And we are told that it is this radical act of selfishness. Yep. It's mean it's cold, it's selfish. And we have to like unlearn all of that.
[00:21:35] That's the first step to all of this. We are perfectly worthy of having needs and setting a boundary. Isn't saying only me. It's just saying me too, right? I'm not saying. Only me. I'm saying this relationship needs to work for both of us. And if there's, you know, a way that we can communicate such that it does, this is the way I'm going to request it.
[00:21:57] Usually on the other side of it, if someone is [00:22:00] pushing back on your boundary, it's either a they're embarrassed or ashamed of perhaps you calling out behavior that they didn't realize was insensitive or harmful. Yeah. Uh, B maybe you're taking away a privilege that they were never meant to have in the first place, except now they've become accustomed to it.
[00:22:16] And they're not pleased that you're taking it away. I see this a lot with like parents and in-laws Uhhuh . Or they, and, or they have never had bought boundaries modeled for them. They don't have a healthy boundary practice in their own life and they don't understand. Or maybe even in some cases I'm told, like I get mad when I see other people advocating for themselves, because I don't know how to do that.
[00:22:38] And I wish I could. Mm-hmm . And so what I always remind people in this situation is my parents still have a choice. I am not forcing anything on them. They can either choose. To show up for me and our relationship in the way that is healthy for me, or they can choose not to. And there will be consequences to that choice, but I'm not dictating their [00:23:00] behavior.
[00:23:00] And it's not mean it's not arbitrary. I'm not setting limits around things that don't really have an impact on me. I am saying it's hurting our relationship when you show up and tell me how to be a better parent or insert yourself into parenting decisions that are between me and my son's dad, that's harmful to us.
[00:23:20] Yeah. And I don't want our relationship to be like that. So. If you show up like this, we can continue having this like open, trusting conversation.
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[00:25:15]Laura McKowen: Did you ever feel selfish for having boundaries? Had, did you have to flip that selfish thing? Do you still have to flip it? Like how do you do that and how have you yeah. How do you talk to people about that?
[00:25:30]Melissa Urban: I think lots of people, this will be a really conscientious process for a lot of people for a very long time.
[00:25:37] I am not a people pleaser. It is not in my personality structure. I've never been a people pleaser. I've been accused of being selfish more times than I can count. And sometimes they were right. Mm-hmm . but I think maybe because my first set of my first experience with boundaries were literally life or death.
[00:25:54] I did not have capacity to think about whether I hurt someone else's feelings because my literal [00:26:00] life was on the line. My recovery was on the line, my future. Right. So in that instance, I think I gained a lot of strength from that experience. I think that we do feel. Selfish. And I think, I think we think we're getting something out of being so small and being so compliant and always putting other people's needs ahead of us in that if we do that, they will love us.
[00:26:23] Right. They will think we're good. They will think we're worthy. But that is like just one side of the coin that comes attached to. I'm selling myself out this whole time. I am disappointing myself every single day, just so I don't disappoint someone else. And it's impossible and it's impossible. It, of course it's not sustainable because if I attach my worth and value to what other people think of me, then I also attach my worth in value to their criticisms.
[00:26:56] And. And this idea, I think [00:27:00] of betraying yourself every single day. It takes a toll, it further distances ourselves from ourselves and listening to our bodies and checking in with ourselves and creating space to, to ask yourself, what do I need? You slowly? Like chop those signals off every single time you ignore that, you know, internal voice and cater to someone else's expectations and we get further and further away from ourselves and it feels awful.
[00:27:30] Yeah. So in the moment, maybe we think we're getting something or it maybe feels easier, but it's not easier. Yeah. It's not easier. It's all uncomfortable
[00:27:42]Laura McKowen: when we all, when we don't have boundaries and we just become this sort of like. Whatever comes in, goes immediately out. Whatever comes in, goes immediately out and we have no capacity.
[00:27:52] The container stays small because we're never, yeah. We're never filling it and allowing it to expand. And so we [00:28:00] might be unselfish, but we're, but we're small, but when, when we allow it to get fulfilled and when we, we allow the, the, the, like, growing is uncomfortable. But it requires a boundary, like literally a baby has to have a boundary in order to grow bigger and have safety and all those things.
[00:28:18] When we allow it to grow bigger, then we have this sort of big container and then we can give big, like, don't you feel like you're only able to do run a company and be a mother and do all these things because you allow the container to get big by using.
[00:28:32]Melissa Urban: yes. Anytime anyone says to me as an entrepreneur, what's your number one piece of like business advice.
[00:28:37] I always say pay yourself first. That's always been my mantra. And while it, it has been, at least since I realized that I had like, run myself completely dry and was of no use to anyone. Right. Um, cuz that happened in the beginning of my journey, but yes, you know, we. In the case of the, you know, in-laws dropping over without calling, you feel as though you're being [00:29:00] accommodating by just a, you know, gritting your teeth and allowing it, even though it's inconvenient, but in that relationship, you're showing up resentful.
[00:29:08] You're not enjoying your time together. You're probably rushing them out the door faster. You're seething. Sitting down and able to enjoy the conversation, your kids pick up on it. Your in-laws pick up on it. Your spouse picks up on it. Like we think that we're doing something nice by showing up in this way.
[00:29:25] When in reality. If we just allowed ourselves a small boundary call before you come by, please give us at least an hour's notice. All of a sudden in that moment, we can become big and expansive. This one small change now allows us to fully enjoy the visit. Show up graciously, allow their energy to replenish us instead of drain us, which is a huge fix.
[00:29:49] And your kids notice the difference, your spouse, your in-laws. So. I think having a few of those experiences where you recognize that one small limit can make you grow your [00:30:00] container and refill your cup, and then give you all of these other ways to show up for people in a way that is proactive instead of reactive.
[00:30:08] Yeah. Is an incredibly powerful lesson. Yeah.
[00:30:12]Laura McKowen: You talk about the rep patterning often ha has to begin with us. Right. Um, and, and you talk about going first mm-hmm like a lot of times this type of work in a family, especially is like, you have to be the one to go first and it sucks to be the one to go first but it reminds me of like the Afro, you know, in recovery, if nothing changes, nothing changes.
[00:30:32] Yeah. But what have you. Like where did you, and have you had the hardest time of the, the categories you wrote about where would you tell
[00:30:42]Melissa Urban: people to start? It's hard to know where to start, because there are a few different places you can start if you are like feeling so empowered by the end of this book.
[00:30:51] And there was one relationship that is just eating you alive. And if you could just. Work on that relationship or resolve it in some [00:31:00] capacity, it would feel like it would give you back, like so much of your life back. Start there, go for the big one. Yeah. Sometimes it's about starting off small and building off like small wins.
[00:31:10] In which case, setting boundaries around your own food or drink can be incredibly powerful because a, you can always control. What goes into your mouth. If you don't wanna eat the cake, you can hold the boundary by not eating the cake. It doesn't rely on anyone else to like cooperate with you. Right? So that's kind of a bonus, right?
[00:31:32] And B those can have an incredibly powerful impact on your energy, your sleep, your mood, your self confidence to like you can start small and build off big wins there. Or you can start off with the friend that you think is gonna be the most respectful, you know, the one who you're already seeing, maybe set and hold boundaries in their own life, or you're reading a book together.
[00:31:54] And there's one aspect of your relationship that you think could be smoothed over tested out there. So I don't [00:32:00] know that there's like any one good place to start. I saw tremendous benefit after struggling the most and setting boundaries with my co-parent. Yeah, I struggled there of course. Right. Because same, you were married to this person.
[00:32:16] They know all of your buttons. You have all of this history and now you're trying, you know, you break up, but you still need to engage with them on a regular basis because of the kid. And it's like hard mm-hmm . But once I figured out the boundaries, I needed to set with myself and with my co-parent. That relationship, like everything turned around.
[00:32:35] I gained so much capacity, energy and self confidence, and I feel like I was able to show up so much better. So for me, that was one really challenging area, but an area in which I saw huge payoff, I think that's
[00:32:45]Laura McKowen: probably the case for anyone who co-parents. It was, it was the case for me too. Um, You had this speaking of relationships, you had this funny post recently, that was like, I'm coming for your mother-in-law.[00:33:00]
[00:33:00] Mm. What is it about that relationship that you learned in writing the book and like, what patterns did, did
[00:33:08]Melissa Urban: you observe? Yeah. Oh, I mean, every time I ask for boundary stories from my community, the in-law stories, just floor me I know, uh, we told my in-laws that they couldn't stay with us during their visit because the house was just too crowded and they showed up on my doorstep with camping gear and they camped in my backyard.
[00:33:29] No, no, they did not. But yes, they did. Or, um, you know, my in-laws told us that they had purchased the really expensive stroller on my baby registry, but they had it delivered to their house. And if we wanted it, we would have to drive to pick them up. I'm nine months pregnant and it is a two hour drive each way.
[00:33:47] I mean, the stories go on and on and on about the in-laws. And I do think that there are some unique challenges to in-law relationships in that, you know, that this is a pattern that their spouse, your spouse has [00:34:00] been putting up with and navigating for their entire life. And the in-laws absolutely. Have your spouse trained to respond to this behavior by saying that's just how they.
[00:34:11] Right at this point, if your spouse hasn't stood up to them, now you are gonna have to be the one to instigate the change in the dynamic. They're gonna paint you as the bad guy. They may put you in a really uncomfortable position where your spouse feels like they need to choose between their parents or their spouse.
[00:34:26] And that's a challenging situation. there's a lot to navigate with in-laws, but I have a few rules and a few strategies that I think really can help in those situations. Yeah. But yeah, they get their own section for a reason. cause the stories I hear are wild yeah.
[00:34:42]Laura McKowen: I, we talked, you and I talked about that a little bit.
[00:34:45] I, I was very lucky and it sounds like you are too. I am. Yeah. Um, but I'm not surprised. And the strategies you have in that are really good. Um, So everyone, if you are in that situation, check out that part of the book. Um, [00:35:00] yeah, another part I loved, um, there's a section, a small section called the courtesy of space, grace and FaceTime.
[00:35:08] Mm-hmm can you talk about that? Um, yeah. I actually had a, a recent encounter. Um, with someone that I was sure I had to have a, like no contact sit, like put up the no contact boundary with, and I had made up all these stories in my head. Mm-hmm about what they're thinking, what they want and how they're gonna react.
[00:35:29] And dah, dah. And I was like ready for the nuclear option. Right. And then I saw them sat down with them. It was like, oh my God, I had this so wrong. You know? And I, would've never known that had I kept it to like a text. Relationships. So maybe talk a little bit about method of delivery and also what you meant by the courtesy of space, grace and FaceTime.
[00:35:55]Melissa Urban: So the space grace and FaceTime is in the chapter with friends where I talk about the fact that like, [00:36:00] sometimes you may need to break up with a friend like that may have to be the actual ultimate boundary that you set. We have, you know, a few different ways to do it and all the scripts that you actually could use, but.
[00:36:12] Section is designed to remind people that how someone responds to your boundary in the moment is not how they may choose to respond as they show up as their highest self mm-hmm after you give them like a little space, grace and FaceTime. So essentially, you know, if you're setting a boundary with your.
[00:36:35] Parents. Um, we are not, Hey, we're not gonna see you on Christmas day. This year. We really wanna stay home as a family and enjoy Christmas with like just the four of us with the kids and your mom freaks out on the phone. Right? That is so selfish. How could you take my grand babies away from me? That is the moment where you allow them some space.
[00:36:53] Mom, I can hear that this is upsetting to you. I'm gonna go. I would love for you to think about this. I'll think about this. Let's [00:37:00] reconnect tomorrow and gently allow them the space to process it because how they show up in the moment may not be how they show up after they have time to think about it.
[00:37:08] Grace is this idea of understanding that sometimes the boundary you said is gonna be challenging for them. They're gonna have their own stories about what it means your mom may be saying. My son doesn't wanna, you know, spend Christmas with us anymore. And, and my son doesn't care about me creating memories with my grandkids.
[00:37:25] That's the story you're telling mm-hmm and understand and have compassion that like your boundary may be challenging for some folks. And then FaceTime is essentially being willing to come back together after the moment to think about. Can we talk this through some more? Can I hear a little bit more of your concern?
[00:37:42] Can I share a little bit more of the reason kind of behind why we're choosing to do this and giving them the opportunity to show up in a different way? Yeah, and I think that's really important when you're on the kind of setting end of a boundary. I loved that part
[00:37:57]Laura McKowen: because it's. We, we, [00:38:00] we wish, or we hope, or we think that it's gonna be once and done.
[00:38:04] Everyone's gonna get it, you know? And it's almost never like that. Once in a while you'll set a boundary and someone will receive it. Well, I mean, you probably might receive something. Well, if it was well timed and well said and all that, but like there's the execution and the receipt is almost never perfect.
[00:38:22] Right? Yeah. So this idea that. Time and allow people, allow people to have their reactions. That the next question I wanted to ask you was that you gave a good example in the book of your sister and you reacting poorly to a boundary. Will you share that example and sort of what
[00:38:39]Melissa Urban: happened? Oh yeah. Yeah. One of the, you know, one of the great things about developing your own boundary practice is that you become far more graceful and respectful when other people set boundaries with you.
[00:38:50] Yeah. And also, except you don't even when you don't, I don't always get it. Right. So, you know, my, my son and I. Were visiting San Diego for the first time we were staying with my [00:39:00] sister. We flew in on Friday and Saturday was gonna be a beach day. And we only had like a day and a half with her. And I was so excited to spend time with her, just the two of us.
[00:39:08] And I really expected that we, you know, my son gets up so early on the west coast, like he was already waking up at 6:00 AM. So I knew he was gonna be up at five he's like three years old at this point. And my sister said to me, Hey, I have had a really rough week at work. I really wanna sleep in tomorrow.
[00:39:23] And as soon as I wake up, we'll head to the beach and I. Okay. Little disappointed telling myself a story that like sleeping in was more important than hanging out with us when we only had a day. But how long could she possibly sleep in? She slept till 11 , 11:00 AM. And I had been up with my son since 5:00 AM.
[00:39:40] So that's six hours with a three year old in a strange space with no toys, like trying to keep him entertained. And when she woke up, I was like in. Frenzy of this is more important to me than it is to her. She doesn't care about us being here. She's not willing to make accommodations, but I had had my boundary practice.
[00:39:59] And I was able to keep [00:40:00] myself in check. And so when she woke up on her own, I didn't make a lot of noise or passive aggressively, like bang around. I was like, did you sleep well? And she said, yes, thank you so much. My work has been so stressful. I haven't had a good night's sleep in a week. I really wanna be fresh for you guys today.
[00:40:15] And for the rest of the weekend. and I am ready to go, like, let's hit the beach. And in that moment, I was so glad that I did not give in to my stories. Yeah. And that I just respected her boundary because it really was coming from a healthy place where she wanted to make this relationship and our visit better.
[00:40:33] Yeah. But I don't always respond great in the beginning. And sometimes I do have to like check myself and again, Assume just assume the best of people. I didn't, you know, I didn't have a pattern of behavior with my sister where she was super selfish and really mean right. And ignored you and didn't care about, I was just telling myself in the moment, this story, and I'm really glad I was able to like, we laugh about it now.
[00:40:56] yeah, yeah,
[00:40:58]Laura McKowen: yeah, no, it's just good to [00:41:00] hear that. I think, you know, you, you call yourself the boundary lady in like a funny way and it, this is forever and ongoing.
[00:41:08]Melissa Urban: Always, yeah. Always a work in process, always.
[00:41:11]Laura McKowen: Yes. Because the relationships change you change. I mean, yes. I was just saying before we got on how.
[00:41:18] I'm getting to a point where I just wanna, I don't want to work all the time. I don't wanna work all the time. And so that means things change, you know, like yes, they have to change. And so you adjust to that and what relationships need to change? What do I need to communicate to the people around me?
[00:41:32]Melissa Urban: So, yes, you know, the best boundaries are flexible, not rigid.
[00:41:36] Mm-hmm and I'll share an example in December of 2021. So we're talking about, you know, almost a year ago, Shared a post about a boundary. I had set around public gatherings and COVID during that point, COVID was raging in my community. My kiddo was young. Um, I think he was like barely vaccinated, whatever.
[00:41:56] The reason we were feeling incredibly cautious around going out and [00:42:00] doing social gatherings. And so I said a boundary around it. Somebody commented a month ago, so we're talking like eight months later. You know, commented on that post saying like, wow, this didn't hold up. Well, like it was some kind of gotcha moment and I was like, what a perfect teaching opportunity that boundaries should be flexible.
[00:42:18] The boundary I set in December is not the boundary that I need now. And as such, I have reevaluated my needs. I have re communicated my. To the people that I need to, and I have a new limit now that serves me and my relationships. But if they are rigid, that's unnecessary and probably damaging to you. And to your relationship, if they're so porous that they're flexible, you're not actually holding or setting a boundary.
[00:42:44] So you need to find. That line, but it is constantly a practice for everybody, including me. It's also helpful
[00:42:52]Laura McKowen: to like, keep that in mind when you're communicating or boundaries to people like this is just what's going on for me right now. I'm in a season, [00:43:00] you know, I'm sure you've had seasons of not having the capacity to socialize much.
[00:43:06] And so it's not saying like, this is how I am now, and this is how I'm, it's gonna be forever say with your friendships. Yeah. Um, but this is a space I'm in right now. I think that's also an easier way to communicate
[00:43:18]Melissa Urban: to people. Some, you know, some, some boundaries are like, look for my own for my own mental health.
[00:43:24] Like my boundary around don't ever off. Like if you, you can smoke pot, if you want to don't ever offer it to me, that stands no matter what, I will never change that boundary to protect my recovery. That's like a fair one. Mm-hmm but you know, Early on in my divorce. I had a few girlfriends that were friends with both of us and they would occasionally casually be like, oh, did you see that your ex-husband was doing this?
[00:43:45] And I would say, I'm gonna stop you right there. Please don't share news of his life. I'm really trying to respect his privacy and for my own healing process, it's like better if we just don't know. Now, if that happens, It's like, okay. Um, you know, they can share, I'm not gonna like stop 'em I won't ask for [00:44:00] more details.
[00:44:00] I won't comment back, but it's no longer necessary for me to hold that boundary because that was a season for me. So yeah, I think it's really important to stay self-aware around what might be seasonal and what might be like, no, no, no. This is something that like, I'm gonna need to preserve either for a while.
[00:44:16] You know yeah. For the rest of my life, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:18]Laura McKowen: And that's, that brings up such a good point about, you know, in, in recovery, a lot of people that listen to this are in recovery. My boundaries were like air tight at the beginning. You know, I, I had so many, I just couldn't do. I couldn't handle anything.
[00:44:32] Yeah. And I had to, when I finally was like, all right, this is just the reality right now. It was only then that I. That it started. I started to be able to handle more slowly. Yeah. Yeah. Like I didn't like going places. People were drinking or I just didn't, I didn't even have the capacity to socialize for like two years, not like a month, like two years, and now I'll go anywhere and do anything.
[00:44:56] And I don't think about it was only because I was able to, to do that in the [00:45:00] beginning, or I finally like surrendered to it. Yes. Right.
[00:45:03]Melissa Urban: Yeah. So I had the same, the same experience with my recovery. Yeah. If I'm somewhere now and someone lights up a joint, I. Don't freak out. I probably will move. I don't really wanna like be around it, but it's nowhere near the issue that it would've been an early recovery.
[00:45:18] Yeah,
[00:45:18]Laura McKowen: for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's good for people that are early on to hear, cuz it's not, you know, there's this idea that my whole life is shut down forever and it's just not like that. If you respect the boundaries that you actually have now. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm um, that's. One of the last questions I wanted ask, cuz you, you do a great job of addressing this and um, this could probably be an entire episode, but like there are factors that, um, preclude people or make it more difficult for them to set boundaries around gender socioeconomic status, race, privilege, all of that.
[00:45:50] Can you just touch on some of the, the things that you observed in research and that you just know now about
[00:45:57]Melissa Urban: that? Yes. I mean, in [00:46:00] the author's note, I acknowledge that setting a boundary and, and expecting that boundary to be respected is in and of itself a privilege because of all of my unearned privileges.
[00:46:11] I'm white, I'm thin bodied. I'm straight, I'm able bodied. For all of those reasons, I have a different experience setting a boundary with a stranger or in the workplace than a woman of color or a trans person or a disabled person. So I have several places in the book where I talk about how to advocate and how to be a good bystander and how to be a good ally.
[00:46:35] I have several places where I recognize. You know that the way that I talk about boundaries may not reflect, everyone's lived experience. I've talked to a lot of people, black women in particular about the intersectionality involved mm-hmm and being a black woman in the workspace and sort of the different levels of, um, Racism and sexism, that kind of interplay and how those come [00:47:00] into play in boundaries.
[00:47:01] So I think there's definitely exploration to be done in that area. For me, you know, simply calling that out as like at the bare minimum, absolute first step, but I took a really cool bystander intervention training in the workplace, um, from an organization called right to be.org that taught me how to be a good bystander in the workplace.
[00:47:22] If I were to witness. Situation of harassment or discrimination or racism. And that was really powerful. What was the name of the organization? The name of the organization is right to B R I G H T and then T O B e.org. And they offer bystander intervention, training courses, virtual courses for a variety of different situations.
[00:47:41] If you see someone out in public getting harassed, or if. You know, you're a witness to racism or sexism or, um, homophobia in the workplace. Here's how you, as a bystander with privilege can intervene in those situations and great. I absolutely, I included that as a resource in the book with some descriptors and [00:48:00] that's, that would be a great place for people.
[00:48:01] Like me to start to start. Yeah. Um,
[00:48:05]Laura McKowen: we didn't talk about work, uh, workplace much here, but you talk about a lot in the book. Oh yeah. I thought that was really helpful. And you specifically addressed the, the, those pieces? Uh, cuz I think that's one of the more difficult areas to have boundaries. Um, yeah, for people, uh, especially in America.
[00:48:24] You know,
[00:48:25]Melissa Urban: or
[00:48:25]Laura McKowen: the west generally speaking, where we have a certain culture around work, um, anything that you would want to say around work just in a general way. Um,
[00:48:36]Melissa Urban: Yeah. I mean, quiet. Quitting is like all the rage right now. Right? You can't be on TikTok and, and like even mainstream media have picked up on it and like quiet quitting is really just the establishment of a healthy boundary practice in the workplace.
[00:48:50] You're not quitting. You're just saying I demand a fair exchange of labor for value, and I'm not gonna work for free nor should you be [00:49:00] expected to. And so that's been a really interesting I've I've done some like writing and. Talking about that. I think the challenges of setting boundaries in the workplace are such in part because of the power dynamics in place.
[00:49:12] Right? So, you know, obviously you've got a hierarchy where you've got a boss and you probably need the job. It's certainly not easy to, for me to just say, well, if the workplace isn't healthy culture for you just find a new job that's impractical and unreasonable for the vast majority of people. So you really have to think about, you know, what are the boundaries that I can hold, like really hold for myself in this area.
[00:49:34] Don't involve, like getting a transfer to a different department or going to human resources or. Filing a formal complaint or getting a new job, but there are certainly ways that you can advocate for your work time, especially your personal time. I spend a lot of time around protecting your time off on vacations or sick days or after hours, hours.
[00:49:53] You're you're
[00:49:54]Laura McKowen: out of office message, by the way, is the best. Well you gave several examples, but then I got to see a real one. Yeah, [00:50:00] because I emailed you during your, and I was like, oh my God, she was not kidding.
[00:50:04]Melissa Urban: no, it's good. It's bomb proof. My out of office message is bomb proof. There is none of this like, oh, I'm gonna be away and I'll have limited access to email.
[00:50:13] No, no, no, no, no, no. I will not be texting. I will not be emailing. I will not be checking. And like, unless you're Kelly Clarkson yes, please. Please. Don't bother me. Cuz she's a national treasure. um, yeah. So I do, I give a lot of practical tips for that area around ethics and morals in the workplace. If you feel like you're asking, you know, for your ethics or morals to be compromised, to kind of maintain your job, your personal space in the workplace, how to advocate for yourself against a micromanaging boss or coworkers who are asking you personal questions.
[00:50:41] There's tons of examples while still acknowledging some of the challenges. Yeah. Yeah. Is
[00:50:46]Laura McKowen: there anything in the book that you wish you would have
[00:50:49]Melissa Urban: written. It would be awesome if I could write more and more examples. The one thing that I had really had a hard time cutting back are the scripts. Yeah. There are 130 in the book, but I could have doubled that.
[00:50:59] Yeah. [00:51:00] Because I had so many good stories from my community and I wanted to give people so many options, but you know, that just means that I have newsletter and Instagram content for forever the rest of my life. Right. Exactly.
[00:51:10]Laura McKowen: So where can people find the book? And if they. More from you. What else are you doing?
[00:51:17] Any other things around this book? Are you going on tour? Like
[00:51:20]Melissa Urban: tell us all that. Yeah. So the book is called the book of boundaries. It is, it was out, uh, it's out October 11th. Mm-hmm and I am doing a fun tour. So there's a virtual event that I'm doing with Gretchen Ruben. So anybody awesome. Can buy a ticket and hear Gretchen and I chat.
[00:51:36] She's one of my. Favorite authors and a dear friend. And I'll be in Chicago, Cincinnati salt lake city, Phoenix, and Toronto for in-person events as well. So I would love to see people there. Um, and you can find all of those details at my website, which is just Melissa u.com and also Instagram Melissa u.com.
[00:51:57]Laura McKowen: Well, this was great. And I want everyone to read this [00:52:00] book. It is honestly really, really good. I'm gonna be using it for all my teaching and all that. So thank you for coming on.
[00:52:06]Melissa Urban: Thank you so much. It was good to talk to you again, you too.
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